NewsyHacker (u/NewsyHacker)

NewsyHacker commented on Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011) english.stackexchange.com... · Posted by u/ent101

ffgjgf1 · 2 years ago

> If negotiating the tu/vous distinction takes major mental effort, are you on the spectrum

For me it’s the fact that these days it’s very inconsistent. The “rules” were pretty clear 20-30+ years ago. Now it’s a bit of a mess and there is a lot of overlap.

> Saying people like myself aren't worth your time sounds like sour grapes

I mean.. you’re somebody who just claimed that a random person is autistic because he doesn’t conform with some social norm you find to be somehow extremely important (specifically) in your environment. So it might not be such a bad heuristic.

NewsyHacker · 2 years ago

I didn’t claim that the person was autistic, I asked. And I asked because the way he described his difficulty is precisely what can finds in the literature on autism and sociolinguistics. And as you can see, I wasn’t far off the mark. I also specifically said that the rules of my environment might not apply to his.

NewsyHacker commented on Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011) english.stackexchange.com... · Posted by u/ent101

ffgjgf1 · 2 years ago

> trace the ultimate fall of the Roman Empire to

Or the plague and the subsequent Arab invasions. The empire was rebounded several times from near collapse after the 300s

NewsyHacker · 2 years ago

The Western Empire was the only Roman Empire that the Italian Fascists ever really cared about. Early Byzantium was totally foreign to their mythology.

NewsyHacker commented on Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011) english.stackexchange.com... · Posted by u/ent101

lnxg33k1 · 2 years ago

Yeah I saw that, but I'd say if that makes sense, that they're attributing the introduction of "Voi" within the roman era and not in the medieval times, right? The second one instead attributes it to "Roma Cesarea", to be fair, it is not the encyclopaedia that attributes it to "Roma Cesarea" but the article that influenced Mussolini quoted on the article on the encyclopaedia, so they're probably only quoting, but I don't know enough, so I'd trust you're right, thank you

NewsyHacker · 2 years ago

Historians today tend to trace the ultimate fall of the Roman Empire to the multiple crises of the third century, even if the name of the empire limped on for a couple of centuries more. So AD 293 is quite a late date, on the threshold to a new era. From the viewpoint of modern historians, it is hard to understand how Italian Fascism could have seen anything that late as worth being proud of and emulating.

NewsyHacker commented on Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011) english.stackexchange.com... · Posted by u/ent101

lnxg33k1 · 2 years ago

I am not an historian but it seems so, I’ve found in the past few minutes two sources that attribute Voi to romans, its in italian but sure it can be translated, going to paste the original links unaltered

https://www.elisamotterle.com/galateo-del-tu-del-lei-e-del-v...

https://www.treccani.it/magazine/atlante/cultura/Diamoci_del...

Beware the treccani is the most used/influential encyclopaedia in italy, so I’d tend to say that i trust them a lot

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treccani

NewsyHacker · 2 years ago

Your first link backs up exactly what I mentioned above:

> In antichità, quando si parlava latino, le formule di cortesia non esistevano … L’usanza del Voi nasce insieme a una nuova formula politica: la tetrarchia introdotta nel 293 da Diocleziano.

It was an innovation in Romance that took place centuries after Caesar and most of the Imperial era. Again, there is ample scholarly literature on this, so no need to resort to popular references like encyclopedias.

NewsyHacker commented on The End of Enlightenment: Empire, Commerce, Crisis historytoday.com/archive/... · Posted by u/benbreen

hef19898 · 2 years ago

Austria-Hungary collapsed after WW1, quite some time after Enlightment. It survived the Napoleonic Wars just fine.

NewsyHacker · 2 years ago

Austria-Hungary finally collapsed after an entire 19th century full of ethnic strife, where many ideologues specifically pointed to French Revolution values.

NewsyHacker commented on Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011) english.stackexchange.com... · Posted by u/ent101

brnt · 2 years ago

In the Netherlands, it is very regional whether or not you use the polite form. In the capital region, it is not used, and use is a signifier you are from the countryside, if your accent wasn't enough. There are courses on how to get rid of your accent (or rather, get one of the capital region), and ceasing the employ of the polite form is featured.

NewsyHacker · 2 years ago

I’m surprised to read this, inasmuch as when I briefly lived in Rotterdam (if “capital region” comprises it, too) some years ago, my local acquaintances coached me in where to use the formal, and where to use the informal, and the distinction seemed very much alive.

NewsyHacker commented on Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011) english.stackexchange.com... · Posted by u/ent101

lnxg33k1 · 2 years ago

Afaik it was because the “Lei” was considered elitist and because in the roman latin culture they had only the “tu” up to caesar introduced the “voi”, so maybe you know fascists had some sort of fetish for the roman empire so they chose to bring the culture as close as possible closer to what roman culture was

NewsyHacker · 2 years ago

Caesar didn't "introduce the voi". Is this an urban myth that Italians believe? The tu/vous distinction in Romance languages arose in medieval times. Not only did it not exist in Caesar's time, it is absent from the centuries of Imperial-era literature in Latin.

There is a wide literature on Latin forms of address. Eleanor Dickey's monograph published by Oxford University Press is a good survey.

NewsyHacker commented on Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011) english.stackexchange.com... · Posted by u/ent101

mewpmewp2 · 2 years ago

I'm from a country where there is a different version and I hate it because it makes me overthink every time about which one is appropriate to use now with people I don't know.

Maybe I should completely ditch it, and use the informal one with everyone new, just with the hopes of building immediate rapport. I must not be the only one to hate it, and surely those people who would mind me using the informal one are not worth my time in the first place.

Luckily we don't have gendered pronouns though, so we can avoid that problem altogether.

I think in the end best and most scalable language is the one that avoids having any implications in the "you" or "pronouns". We are all humans after all.

NewsyHacker · 2 years ago

If negotiating the tu/vous distinction takes major mental effort, are you on the spectrum? Difficulty with understanding social cues and (these distinctions are also about creating distance) other people’s space is a typical trait of autism. These linguistic innovations wouldn't spread – and often quickly, within a couple of generations – if the neurotypical masses found them burdensome.

I'm in a country with this distinction, too, and I don't like strangers addressing me with the informal just like that. Every sociolinguistic setting is different, but using just the informal might not automatically create rapport but the opposite. Saying people like myself aren't worth your time sounds like sour grapes, and it might rob you of some opportunities.

NewsyHacker commented on Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011) english.stackexchange.com... · Posted by u/ent101

tibbydudeza · 2 years ago

Or King James Bible - some Christians stick to the original translation (1611).

NewsyHacker · 2 years ago

Why do you think the KJV is the "original translation"? As far as English translations of Scripture go, it was preceded by the Wycliffe Bible. And a translation of the Gospels was produced in the Old English era.

NewsyHacker commented on 2TB microSD card is on the way early next year overkill.wtf/2tb-microsd-... · Posted by u/brandrick

replete · 2 years ago

DivestOS is the next best thing to GrapheneOS. The founder, Tad, has contributed a massive amount to privacy on android, I've used it for a few years. It's based on LineageOS and has similar device support..

NewsyHacker · 2 years ago

The two projects are not even remotely comparable. DivestOS can’t ensure security features like memory-isolating the modem, because the range of hardware that it supports doesn't have that functionality. It doesn’t run sandboxed Play Services, so one is limited to generally the apps that are on F-Droid.