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Nahtnah commented on Plastic chemical phthalate causes DNA breakage, chromosome defects, study finds   medicalxpress.com/news/20... · Posted by u/Jimmc414
morpheos137 · a year ago
The blind irrational hatred of "plastics" is bordering on a religion or mass hysteria.

HN is supposed to be a forum of educated, rational people capable of critical thought. Here are some basic facts.

1. Plastic is often presented in the media as some kind of monolithic hazardous compound where it is not. There are different kinds of plastic. Alternatives are usually economically and environmentally inferior.

2. The most common types of plastic for consumer applications are polyethylene and polypropylene, followed by polyvinyl chloride and polystyrene. PE and PP are biologically and chemically inert. The same reason why they don't break down is the reason why they are harmless. Polystyrene derived from a naturally occuring compound styrene found in some plants and can and does breakdown under attack of UV light, acids, microorganisms. All three PE, PP, and PS are most commonly manufactured without harmful additives. Only PVC uses significant quantities of plasticizers some of which are harmful. Unless you are chewing on your shower curtain you have little to worry about.

3. At least several hundred billion tons of commodity plastics have been mass produced over the last 70 years with little to no quantified, attributable environmental damage from these plastics. Most microplastic is essentially inert dust that is no different from other organic or inorganic dust such as pollen or clay. Plastics are not allergens because they are non reactive and do not stimulate an immune response. It is very likely that blood of animals contains plastic molecules along with thousands of other molecules in trace quantities doing no more harm than natural silt in a river system.

4.The fact that commodity plastics do not readily rot or degrade is a good thing. Petroleum carbon made into stable plastic and buried in a landfill is kept out of the atmosphere.

5. Plastic items are less energy demanding to recycle and produce in the first place because of lower thermal processing requirements than glass, metal or wood.

6. Lignin in wood is a natural plastic.

7. Most of the macro plastics in the ocean comes from Asia and the fishing industry. In the west it is buried in a landfill where it helpfully sequesters carbon.

8. Plastic items are often lighter to ship also consuming less energy that way versus alternatives.

9. Most microplastics in the ocean are from synthetic fibers and tire abrasion. I have yet to see a non handwaving study that these actually result in significant environmental harm. Maybe we should research more durable tire materials. Perversely electric vehicles wear tires quicker than ICE vehicles due to a more aggressive torque curve. Cotton has to be planted (diesel tractor), sprayed with fertilizers and pesticides, picked (diesel), spun, woven, etc. just because it's natural doesn't mean it's better for the environment at mass scale. This true of other things too like glass, metal, paper, etc.

10. People should stop irresponsibly hating on plastics when the alternatives are worse.

This neo Luddite Puritanism is just dumb and unscientific.

I challenge anyone to rebut my assertions with hard facts that quantify to supposed damage plastic does versus what alternatives would do.

Nahtnah · a year ago
3. At least several hundred billion tons of commodity plastics have been mass produced over the last 70 years with little to no quantified, attributable environmental damage from these plastics. Most microplastic is essentially inert dust that is no different from other organic or inorganic dust such as pollen or clay. Plastics are not allergens because they are non reactive and do not stimulate an immune response. It is very likely that blood of animals contains plastic molecules along with thousands of other molecules in trace quantities doing no more harm than natural silt in a river system.

You're missing a couple points yourself. For example, the article is talking about phthalates. These are additives added to plastics. These leech from microplastics. So your rant about how plastics are inert shows you didnt even understand the article yourself tbh.

There is plenty of evidence that these compounds are harmful and affect the biology. See the section on wikipedia on phthalates. What there isnt is much evidence and experimentation showing theyre NOT harmful.

Nahtnah commented on Plastic chemical phthalate causes DNA breakage, chromosome defects, study finds   medicalxpress.com/news/20... · Posted by u/Jimmc414
timr · a year ago
At no point did I claim they were "good for you". I'm just saying that the OP is not making a valid argument.
Nahtnah · a year ago
Sure, but I didnt claim he made a valid argument either. What I am claiming is when someone says things like

"The question of what this would do in the human body, which is full of polymers with very sensitively evolved mechanical properties, was obvious - yet it was not asked in a funded capacity until we had been letting it accumulate in our kids for decades"

which the article I linked supports, people come out of the woodwork to argue we need "more evidence/an exact biochemical pathway" when we dont have the understanding/technology to actually do that.

Nahtnah commented on Plastic chemical phthalate causes DNA breakage, chromosome defects, study finds   medicalxpress.com/news/20... · Posted by u/Jimmc414
foxglacier · a year ago
You're assuming we're all being poisoned. We might not be, and clearly if we are, it's not a huge effect because we're still not obviously more diseasous than before. It could even be that the benefits of these chemicals on civilization outweigh the health costs so we're better off using them.
Nahtnah · a year ago
You're assuming were not all being poisoned, lol. Did you even read what I wrote.

There's plenty of evidence we're increasingly fucking with our bodies, again see the rising rates of cancer in youth. Yes, there are likely many causes for that. You'd have to be criminally negligent to argue a class of chemicals like phthalates is in the clear. Yes, the details are complicated. Yes, the dose makes the poison. Yes.

I believe we're smart enough to find a way to have/eat out cake, but smart people are arguing in this classic way about details that miss the main point people should care about, downplaying the issue in a way that laypeople cant understand the nuance of. So we keep following the $$$ and likely poisoning ourselves.

Nahtnah commented on Plastic chemical phthalate causes DNA breakage, chromosome defects, study finds   medicalxpress.com/news/20... · Posted by u/Jimmc414
timr · a year ago
I'm not nitpicking the parent. The parent comment is just wrong, full stop. You should not listen to them.

They have an incorrect notion of what a phthalate is (usually a slightly greasy ester or an alcohol), how polar/hydrophopic they are (mixed; generally ampiphilic), and whether or not they tend to bioaccumulate (in general, they do not).

Your broader point is well-taken, however, but not in the way you intended: chemistry does not reward a shallow understanding. The details matter a lot.

Nahtnah · a year ago
You're arguing as if you understand all the side effects of the biochemistry on the biology. None of us do. Theyre correct about one thing: its probably not good for you.

But sure, you might be more right on the basics of the biochemistry.

I guess I'm just frustrated about the state of the world - im not a degrowth person I just want a better balance.

There seems to be plenty of evidence for, for example, their role in endocrine disruption.

Nahtnah commented on Plastic chemical phthalate causes DNA breakage, chromosome defects, study finds   medicalxpress.com/news/20... · Posted by u/Jimmc414
whatshisface · a year ago
The story of phthalates really highlights the drinking from the fume hood aspects of our commercial norms. Phthalates are designed to squeeze between hydrophobic polymers such that their bulk mechanical properties are changed, while remaining chemically inert and not subject to breakdown. The question of what this would do in the human body, which is full of polymers with very sensitively evolved mechanical properties, was obvious - yet it was not asked in a funded capacity until we had been letting it accumulate in our kids for decades. The position of our institutions on this is a clear case of preferring not to know.
Nahtnah · a year ago
This whole thread is a great example of an interesting phenomenon... whenever people talk about this people come out of the woodwork to nitpick the details of whoever is criticizing the wonton use of likely poisonous compounds. Theyll argue things like this about the details of the exact likely bioactivity of the compound, or go on about how its impossible to have modern society without poisoning everything in a huge perfect enemy of the good argument.

Like, go drink from a cup of pthalates if youre so ok with it being in your brain, balls, ovaries, etc. No ones arguing we need to ban plastics, but maybe coating the world in single use water bottles without considering the effects is suboptimal. Shouldnt the onus be on proving its safe before spreading it everywhere, rather than proving its dangerous?

https://ethz.ch/en/news-and-events/eth-news/news/2021/06/wor...

Theyll call me extreme/ignorant/naive, but maybe a society where we have to poison ourselves to sustain "growth" isnt worth sustaining.

Not to mention the constant alarm bells about rising GI cancers in younger people. "OH BuT YOU HAVNEnT staTIstiCALLY prOved A cAusAL AssOCiaTION".

Nahtnah commented on An adult fruit fly brain has been mapped   economist.com/science-and... · Posted by u/teleforce
mjburgess · a year ago
It was my understanding that all this connectome-based research was largely a deadend, because it doesnt capture dynamics, nor a vast array of interactions. if you've ever seen neurones being grown (go search YT), you'll see it's a massive gelatinous structure which is highly plastic and highly dynamic. Even in the simplest brains (eg., of elgans), you get 10^x exponential growth in number of neurones and their connections as it grows.
Nahtnah commented on Averaging is a convenient fiction of neuroscience   thetransmitter.org/neural... · Posted by u/domofutu
lamename · a year ago
Yes and no. An alternate perspective is that the output of each neuron in an artificial neural net is analogous to an F-I curve in a real neuron (spike frequency-input DC current curve). In this way, different neurons have different slopes and intercepts in their FI curves, just as a network of ANN neurons effectively have their activation functions tweaked after applying weights.

I usually only say this to other neuroscientists who have a background in electrophysiology. The analogy isn't perfect, and is unnecessary to understand what ANNs are doing, but the analogy still stands.

Nahtnah · a year ago
Eh, the analogy is farrr from perfect. You're basically assuming you can reduce neurons to LTI systems. Which you obviously very much cannot.
Nahtnah commented on The Art of Electronics (2015)   artofelectronics.net/... · Posted by u/teleforce
vichle · 2 years ago
Is this a good book for beginners? What other books are good for electronics beginners? Preferably cheaper than this... :)
Nahtnah · 2 years ago
I've been burning alot of time learning electronics. This book isnt too bad for beginners, but I get way more understanding out of Behrad Razavi's stuff, he has lectures on youtube as well as a book which has way more worked examples. OTOH this book introduces more intricate concepts much more early which can be good for motivation if you dont let yourself get stuck on totally understanding them. For example he goes through a BPT schmitt trigger before he even shows the small signal model for BPTs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQDfVJzEymI

Nahtnah commented on Permafrost engine – An OpenGL RTS game engine written in C   github.com/eduard-permyak... · Posted by u/rysertio
DizzyDoo · 3 years ago
Are they? A traditional RTS like Age of Empires 2 or a Starcraft requires quite a lot of accuracy in quick-selection and movement orders, it would drive me nuts to try and do that on a mobile screen with no mouse. I know MOBA-style games are popular on mobile, but there's only one unit to control there.

The only non-keyboard-and-mouse RTS I can think of is Tooth and Tail[0], designed to play nicely with controllers (in a similar way that that Halo Wars was back in 2009), and while I'm sure high-level play in those games was indeed very high-level, the whole experience nonetheless just doesn't work for me, it feels 'dumbed down' still.

[0] - https://store.steampowered.com/app/286000/Tooth_and_Tail/

Nahtnah · 3 years ago
Check out Line War, fwiw
Nahtnah commented on 60-80% of Tweeters posting on Russia-Ukraine war are bots, 90% pro Ukraine   theprint.in/tech/60-80-of... · Posted by u/bperki8
speeder · 3 years ago
The only reaction I saw from Russia so far is keep pointing out whenever they spot a Nazi on Ukranian videos.

To be honest this feels kinda effective, since Ukranians are not bothering in hiding the Nazi at all (most recent example: Zelensky made selfies near his bodyguards, and they were wearing concentration camp division tags on their uniforms...)

But when I talk to random people on street here in Brazil at least, it is more likely they believe in Ukranian propaganda than Russian propaganda just because they never heard of the Russian propaganda in first place.

Nahtnah · 3 years ago
This https://thegrayzone.com/2022/09/15/zelensky-bodyguards-hitle... ?

Yeahhh, the bodyguard for the Jewish guy is a Nazi! (Note grayzone is HEAVILY russian biased.)

Fuck it, I'm jewish and I'd rather be interrogated by the Ukranians than the Russians any day: https://twitter.com/olex_scherba/status/1570779528196399104

u/Nahtnah

KarmaCake day67March 12, 2022View Original