KieranMac (u/KieranMac)

KieranMac commented on So you want to scrape like the big boys (2021) incolumitas.com/2021/11/0... · Posted by u/aragonite

KieranMac · 2 years ago

I'm a lawyer that works in the web-scraping space, and I always chuckle when I read threads like this. Almost every company that we now consider a monopolist (or their affiliates) in the tech space used scraping a part of their process to build their business, and almost every one of those same monopolists now prohibits startups and competitors from scraping their data (which, invariably, is not actually "their" data in any sort of legally cognizable sense). And so perhaps the ethics of web scraping are not so straightforward. And neither are the legal issues associated with it.

I wrote an article about that last fall that got some attention here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37264676

KieranMac commented on How to deal with receiving a cease-and-desist letter from Big Tech 12challenges.substack.com... · Posted by u/louisbarclay

ncallaway · 2 years ago

> If you don’t know anyone that would be in the area of law that you’re looking for, ask for _any_ attorney recommendations, then ask those attorneys for recommendations for people in the area of law you need.

Attorneys know attorneys. I’d still recommend starting with your network, then asking those attorneys who they would recommend for the services you need. Or ask them if they know anyone that might be able to refer you.

KieranMac · 2 years ago

There are probably two dozen specialists on this issue nationwide. A properly targeted Google search will outperform your personal network of attorneys (and their network of attorneys) 99.9% of the time.

KieranMac commented on How to deal with receiving a cease-and-desist letter from Big Tech 12challenges.substack.com... · Posted by u/louisbarclay

SoftTalker · 2 years ago

Right, that's the "I could do myself" part.

Though I've generally been disappointed with the legal services I've hired. Law and medicine seems like most professions, there are some really good practitioners and a lot who are mediocre but have passed the minimum required qualifications, and it's hard for an outsider to immediately spot the difference.

KieranMac · 2 years ago

Speaking of surgery, here's an analogy that might be helpful.

Five years ago I had a catastrophic ankle injury I suffered while running in Moab. Two broken bones, lots of torn ligaments, and otherwise irreparable damage without serious surgery.

I interviewed a whole bunch of surgeons before I decided where to go under the knife. And I don't remember where I got the advice, but someone told me the most important question to ask is: "How many times have you performed this specific surgery (a Maisonneuve fracture repair)?"

I eventually found the Steadman clinic and a doctor who had already performed the exact surgery I needed nearly 100 times. Everyone else's answer was less than 5. Some even answered 0. The surgical clinic I used had signed pictures of professional athletes all over the wall. I found the true specialist, and I'm very thankful that I did.

Even bad lawyers and surgeons are expensive. When you have a bet-the-business legal issue, do plenty of advanced interviewing to make sure that the one you hire has plenty of experience with the exact issue you need help with. If it's not obvious that you've found the right person, keep looking.

KieranMac commented on How to deal with receiving a cease-and-desist letter from Big Tech 12challenges.substack.com... · Posted by u/louisbarclay

SoftTalker · 2 years ago

Yep I'm with you, I am absolutely loathe to hire anyone to do something I could do myself. I've done major home repairs, painting, flooring, kitchen and bath remodels, I do almost all my own auto repairs and maintenance, I do my own laundry, I clean my own house, I cut my own grass. I have neighbors who just pay for someone to do all that without a second thought.

KieranMac · 2 years ago

There are certain tasks that you would never do yourself, such as surgery. And there are certain tasks like changing your oil where anyone with patience and diligence can do it themselves. It's just a question of whether you want to spend the time to learn it and do it.

Responding to a C&D letter from a Fortune 50 company, I would posit, is more like performing surgery than changing your oil. The cost of being wrong is rather high.

KieranMac commented on How to deal with receiving a cease-and-desist letter from Big Tech 12challenges.substack.com... · Posted by u/louisbarclay

JohnFen · 2 years ago

> I can see the need for hiring at some point but I don't even know where to start.

I have advice for this. Most attorneys, at least in my area, will sit down and talk with you at no charge. My advice is to take advantage of this before you have an actual issue that needs attention and talk with a few of them. Investigate them, talk to their clients if you can, ask about them with professional organizations, etc.

And then just use them for routine stuff every so often. Run contracts by them before you sign, etc. The idea is that you want to develop a relationship with them so that you and they know each other. Then, if something comes up where you really need an attorney, yours is already very familiar with you and what you're doing.

> Is there some kind of ongoing subscription cost to keep being "my attorney" or just pay per hour when you have an issue?

There is a concept of keeping an attorney "on retainer" -- which basically means prepaying for legal services. At a small scale, this isn't worth doing. Treat your attorney like your auto mechanic: keep a relationship going, go to them for your oil changes and other routine stuff, and pay by the hour. Then when you need important work done, they're primed and ready.

KieranMac · 2 years ago

This is all good advice.

KieranMac commented on How to deal with receiving a cease-and-desist letter from Big Tech 12challenges.substack.com... · Posted by u/louisbarclay

User23 · 2 years ago

They can perhaps be used to establish willful infringement if it ever does go to court.

KieranMac · 2 years ago

Also, notice is a component of many legal claims.

KieranMac commented on How to deal with receiving a cease-and-desist letter from Big Tech 12challenges.substack.com... · Posted by u/louisbarclay

lgleason · 2 years ago

The best thing to do is to know that law and your legal rights. Anybody can write a cease and desist. It is a first step towards a lawsuit, but given how inexpensive they are to write they are an easy way to intimidate small businesses.

KieranMac · 2 years ago

The best way to perform surgery is to read a few articles online and then get to cutting!

It is certainly true that anyone can respond to a C&D letter. But whether you can do so without doing more harm than good is another question.

KieranMac commented on How to deal with receiving a cease-and-desist letter from Big Tech 12challenges.substack.com... · Posted by u/louisbarclay

localhost3000 · 2 years ago

Used to periodically get a c&d email from FB lawyers for some harmless software I published. Always completely ignored it, not even responding to acknowledge receipt. It eventually stopped. I figure they gave up and focused their efforts on targets who showed they would be responsive to threats. It was 100% bullying.

KieranMac · 2 years ago

It is worth pointing out that FB has a long history of litigating this issue, from Power Ventures, to BrandTotal, to Octoparse, to Voyager Labs and more. And they have about 80-90% track record of success. Obviously, they send C&Ds more often than they file litigation. But to act as if this is a completely idle threat is naive.

KieranMac commented on How to deal with receiving a cease-and-desist letter from Big Tech 12challenges.substack.com... · Posted by u/louisbarclay

michpoch · 2 years ago

Would you be willing to share some stories regarding particularly FB reacting to someone scraping their data? Are they very stingy? Would they bother with someone non-US based?

KieranMac · 2 years ago

I can't share client-specific stories because that's protected by AC privilege. But I think the recipients of these letters sometimes have more potential to negotiate than they realize.

KieranMac commented on How to deal with receiving a cease-and-desist letter from Big Tech 12challenges.substack.com... · Posted by u/louisbarclay

ncallaway · 2 years ago

I’d start by asking people around you if they know an attorney. Recommendations from people you know will almost always be more valuable than a Google search.

If you don’t know anyone that would be in the area of law that you’re looking for, ask for _any_ attorney recommendations, then ask those attorneys for recommendations for people in the area of law you need.

If you absolutely cannot find a lawyer through people you know (and, really, try asking people), then you can look up a lawyer referral service for your state. Most state or county bars will have some program for making referrals to lawyers. Often these will have a low-ish flat fee, which will get your a short initial consultation with a few lawyers in the relevant area of law.

For billing, it’s something to ask your lawyer, thought most lawyers will have some kind of billing program where you pay hourly for what you use, and don’t need to pay some ongoing fee just to have the lawyer as “your lawyer”. Small business that only need a lawyer for a few hours a couple times a year aren’t uncommon clients for business lawyers.

KieranMac · 2 years ago

The problem with this advice is that this is a very niche area of law. Unless the people you know have had prior experiences with data-access/web-scraping legal issues, a generalist recommendation is very unlikely to be helpful here.