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KempyKolibri commented on Lab-grown salmon hits the menu   smithsonianmag.com/smart-... · Posted by u/bookmtn
bowmessage · 10 days ago
Spoiled meat that needs to be tossed != live fish that needs to be cooked.
KempyKolibri · 10 days ago
What’s the practical difference as far as the appeal to nature argument you’re making goes? Humans lived for thousands of years on maggot-riddled meat, same as they did on parasite-riddled salmon.

Surely if it was good enough for us to live on back then, it’s part of the circle of life and should be totally fine. Right?

If one’s no longer acceptable because we don’t do it any more, then surely if lab meat gets established then we’ll look back at that parasite-riddled salmon with the same revulsion as we do the maggots.

KempyKolibri commented on Lab-grown salmon hits the menu   smithsonianmag.com/smart-... · Posted by u/bookmtn
__turbobrew__ · 10 days ago
I consume very little meat, and when I do it is either because someone serves me meat at a meal or occasionally I will buy some meat from my local butcher which sources their meat from local free range farms.

Meat consumption is also not a binary decision, you can consume 10% of the meat you currently do and reduce the environmental side effects caused by your meat consumption by 90%. Furthermore, you can consume meat that comes from small scale local sustainable sources to further reduce your footprint.

It is the same deal with eggs, I don’t buy factory eggs, I buy them from my local farmer who has free range chickens. Sure, eggs are $8/dozen, but that is the real cost of eggs which do not preclude animal suffering and unsustainable farming practices.

My point is maybe the solution to the meat supply issues is to consume less meat, and consume meat from more sustainable sources. It is almost impossible for western society to grasp that maybe the solution to sustainability problems is to align their consumption with the rest of the world instead of turning to technology to solve all their problems. It is the same with so many other things like water management where the solution seems to be to dam more rivers and suck more acquifers dry instead of maybe not trying to grow grass and cedar trees in a desert.

KempyKolibri · 10 days ago
Still not sure what your contention with the OP is. They said lab meat solves problems inherent to non-lab meat. This seems to be trivially true. It could also be true that consuming 10% of the meat you normally consume would also reduce the issues of meat consumption.

> It is almost impossible for western society to grasp that maybe the solution to sustainability problems is to align their consumption with the rest of the world instead of turning to technology to solve all their problems.

Not sure what persuasive power this is supposed to have. In the case of lab meat, the technological solution seems outright better than the “rest of the world” solution.

If the “rest of the world” solution is “eat less meat” then on an ethical basis, that is a worse option compared to lab meat. Sure, fewer sentient beings having their throats slit for taste pleasure is better than the status quo, but zero is even better than that.

KempyKolibri commented on Lab-grown salmon hits the menu   smithsonianmag.com/smart-... · Posted by u/bookmtn
presentation · 10 days ago
Because some people eat salmon more than once a month, care about the environment or animal welfare, and don't think that processed foods are inherently disgusting.
KempyKolibri · 10 days ago
Yeah, I'm personally very bullish on processed and ultra-processed food. If we make it that far as a race, I suspect in 100 years from now we'll be eating a more processed diet and it will be more healthful than our current diet.

Mix in the benefits you mentioned and it seems like a no-brainer to me.

KempyKolibri commented on Lab-grown salmon hits the menu   smithsonianmag.com/smart-... · Posted by u/bookmtn
__turbobrew__ · 10 days ago
All of those things are solved by eating legumes as well. I would rather eat protein rich vegetarian food over lab grown meat. I still eat meat but maybe only once a week, I really enjoy discovering what other cultures have created for meat free meals. Hell, hundreds of millions of Indians are vegetarians, and I would much rather cook and eat Indian food over eating some abomination of nature which only exists due to human’s destructive diet tendencies and lack of discipline. I also refuse to eat beyond meat either as those meat substitute products are very processed and far from their natural state.
KempyKolibri · 10 days ago
I'm not sure I understand this argument. The point is that there are some serious issues with the production of meat that are not (or may not be in future) issues with lab grown meat.

It's true that you could solve this by only eating legumes, but you then go on to say you don't even eat only legumes yourself, you also consume meat. So for those times where you do consume meat, lab grown meat would solve the issues that come with that.

Totally get that you may have dietary/taste preferences that preclude consumption of these meats, but that sounds different to the OP's point that they potential solve a lot of issues with our current food supply.

KempyKolibri commented on Lab-grown salmon hits the menu   smithsonianmag.com/smart-... · Posted by u/bookmtn
bowmessage · 10 days ago
I have caught many salmon.

The parasites are part of the circle of life and are in no way gross to me.

Sorry you feel that way.

KempyKolibri · 10 days ago
What do you mean by “part of the circle of life”? I’m not sure why that would be a compelling reason to be ok with something either way?

For most of human history eating meat riddled with maggots was part of the circle of life, is it weird to be grossed out by eating meat riddled with maggots?

KempyKolibri commented on Lab-grown salmon hits the menu   smithsonianmag.com/smart-... · Posted by u/bookmtn
themafia · 10 days ago
This wasn't always the case.

It makes it easy to wonder if there's a connection between that fact and the types of diseases, particularly auto immune and inflammatory diseases, that occur in the population.

KempyKolibri · 10 days ago
If one is going to make sweeping generalisations based on cross sectional data, you have to be open to all the sweeping generalisations.

So is it also easy to wonder if there’s a connection between high canola consumption and the fact we’re living longer than ever?

KempyKolibri commented on Lab-grown salmon hits the menu   smithsonianmag.com/smart-... · Posted by u/bookmtn
shlant · 10 days ago
> But when an omni dieter looks unhealthy we just say “that guy looks rough” and when we see a vegan who looks unhealthy we say “vegan diets make you look rough”.

many such cases. People have no idea about how much their bias influences their perception of the world and then share the output of that worldview as if it is relevant to reality

KempyKolibri · 10 days ago
Yep, and we can even see it in others. I have little doubt that if the person I replied to was a passenger in a car, the driver got cut off by someone and they responded by making a sweeping generalisation about people of that race/gender/religion driving poorly they’d be able to identify the same bias at play.

As I say, my thesis is that these double standards/logical contradictions are intellectual tools to protect us from our cognitive dissonance. We’re not really operating from a set of logically coherent principles for the most part.

I say this without judgement or any belief that I’m not doing the same thing in a million areas in my life. Just to point out that this is why I lean more towards cultivated meat than outreach activism when it comes to veganising the world!

KempyKolibri commented on Lab-grown salmon hits the menu   smithsonianmag.com/smart-... · Posted by u/bookmtn
lordofgibbons · 10 days ago
> I think the world would be a better place if everyone went vegan.

Strongly disagree. I absolutely hate that animals have to be killed for us to eat meat. And the industrial scale cruelty of factory farming gives me existential dread. But I have yet to see a healthy looking vegan person.

I've lived in a couple of very liberal cities with vegans, and every single one I met looked... just sick and unhealthy.

But I think we're on the same page w.r.t the best end-goal. I can't wait for cultured meats so we can stop inflicting so much cruelty on farm animals.

KempyKolibri · 10 days ago
Eh, I think there are several reasons to favour the empirics we have on the subject over anecdotal experiences, which are going to be coloured by problematic biases (toupee fallacy, etc).

When we look at the data on the subject, both in terms of shorter term RCTs looking at biomarkers and longer term observational data, vegan diets seem non-inferior to the other top-tier dietary patterns we see for lifespan and healthspan (med, lacto-ovo vegetarian etc).

That said, I’m sympathetic to the view that with currently available foods one does have to be more mindful of diet than when on an omni diet - I think that’s true. But when an omni dieter looks unhealthy we just say “that guy looks rough” and when we see a vegan who looks unhealthy we say “vegan diets make you look rough”.

KempyKolibri commented on Lab-grown salmon hits the menu   smithsonianmag.com/smart-... · Posted by u/bookmtn
KempyKolibri · 10 days ago
I think the world would be a better place if everyone went vegan.

However, I’m not convinced that vegan activism via pointing out that many people’s behaviours are at odds with their stated ethical preferences is particularly effective.

I suspect this is because many vegan activists make the assumption that people have ethical preferences which then drive their behaviour. For many (most?) people, though, I think they act the way that feels good to them and then come up with justifications for it post-hoc, even if those justifications are illogical.

As such, I live in hope that lab-grown meat will be tasty and cheap enough that people switch across and stop consuming animal products, which will give humanity the space to look back and see the abhorrent nature of animal agriculture for what it is and ban it outright.

With any luck, we’ll view our current generation’s treatment of animals with the same confusion we feel when we consider our forebears’ tolerance of slavery.

Bring on the cultured salmon!

KempyKolibri commented on Lab-grown salmon hits the menu   smithsonianmag.com/smart-... · Posted by u/bookmtn
oceanplexian · 10 days ago
Not allowing something to exist is a really strange way of conceptualizing reduction of harm.

I'm perfectly fine eating something that was alive, so long as it was treated with respect and was killed humanely. Doing so connects you, a living being, to other living beings that are part of the circle of life, which live and die the same way you and I will.

KempyKolibri · 10 days ago
Depends on the context, not necessarily weird. If the choice was between “world A” where sentient beings were perpetually bred into existence to be perpetually tortured until they died and “world B” where the breeding stopped and the beings became extinct, it would be insane to favour world A over B.

u/KempyKolibri

KarmaCake day180October 26, 2024View Original