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Amezarak commented on Interactive map of Paul's first century travels in Roman world   intofarlands.com/map-of-p... · Posted by u/intofarlands
Jedd · 10 hours ago
Hmm - we're going to have to disagree about your confidence in the authorship of the book of John, because wikis from rational to pedia, and deeper tomes I've read on the subject, the consensus appears to be that 'we don't know'.

Clement - a religious (read indoctrinated and partisan) person born 120 years after Jesus was meant to have died, is neither 'close in time' nor relevant.

We have plenty of historical works from the actual time about other things where authors identified themselves, cited their sources, did not obfuscate their meanings, etc - so it's not like that skill was unknown. As you say, 'literature' is an apt word for these stories.

As to before / after 70 CE, I guess we'll have to move on from there also, as I don't have a horse in that race.

Amezarak · 3 hours ago
> Hmm - we're going to have to disagree about your confidence in the authorship of the book of John, because wikis from rational to pedia, and deeper tomes I've read on the subject, the consensus appears to be that 'we don't know'.

I'm not saying the book is written by John. In fact, I'm saying it's unknowable. What I'm doing is laying out the arguments for and against:

For: The book internally claims to be written by John, and very early authors claim to have been told that traditionally.

Against: John was the latest of the Gospels, and since John was written last based on it's style and on the traditional commentary, and since Mark was written after 70AD because we think it alludes to the Siege of Jerusalem, and because we're told in Acts that John wasn't particularly scholarly, John could not have been written by John because he was most likely dead by the time it was written and he wasn't sufficiently scholarly.

You can see that neither one of these are logical proofs. That's the nature of this type of historiography. There's nothing even close to proof. Consensus, such as it is, is just based on the opinions of the current people in the field, who have to publish or perish (thus we're subjected to papers like "Xenophon couldn't have been at the battle of Cunaxa because his description of Cyrus's head wound differs very slightly from the doctor's"). "Everyone was right" is not publishable, so the debate goes on forever and the fashion changes. Of course some arguments can be stronger than others! For example, a common type of argument goes like this:

Passage X is an interpolation. It exists in tons of the later texts we have, but none of the earlier ones.

This is a probabilistic argument: we can never be certain. It could be the case that Passage X was included in the original manuscript, but that an early, popular copyist elided the passage and his copy spawned many others. But this is how it all goes. We're not making certain arguments. It's really more of a persuasive sport. Assuming you have read a given text carefully and are reasonably well-informed on contemporary history, there is no particular reason you have to accept the current consensus. It isn't based on super obscure expert knowledge. If as a layman, you (reasonably!) want to just accept the current academic consensus, that's fine! It's just important to understand what it is actually based on, and that it doesn't constitute anything close to knowledge or certainty.

> As to before / after 70 CE, I guess we'll have to move on from there also, as I don't have a horse in that race.

That's actually a very important point for the dating of the gospels, which is in turn a major point in the authorship debate.

> Clement - a religious (read indoctrinated and partisan) person born 120 years after Jesus was meant to have died, is neither 'close in time' nor relevant.

Unless you know anyone closer in time and nonpartisan, people like him and Irenaeus are all we've got. And that's typical. Disinterested parties don't usually write popular surviving historical works. This is reminiscent of a popular line of historiography: X isn't true because the author was motivated to believe it. Of course this is always possible but it's a very tiresome argument in the absence of some other evidence.

Amezarak commented on Interactive map of Paul's first century travels in Roman world   intofarlands.com/map-of-p... · Posted by u/intofarlands
Jedd · 15 hours ago
Book of John - you may be misinterpreting the claims of authorship / identity there. And 'the disciple whom Jesus loved' is probably not really self-identifying anyway. AIUI consensus is that it was written by a group of people, but we really don't know.

Book of Luke / (some of) Acts - yes, probably the same person, traditionally thought to be a physician friend of Paul / Saul, but again, no authorship provided or sources cited, so we don't really know.

So much in the NT was written to satisfy various OT prophecies that it can all feel a bit contrived - but again, AIUI, the writings in 'Mark' (the first of the four) strongly suggest post-70CE, but perhaps much later.

I suppose anything is 'not implausible' if you're inclined in a certain direction.

Amezarak · 14 hours ago
> Book of John - you may be misinterpreting the claims of authorship / identity there. And 'the disciple whom Jesus loved' is probably not really self-identifying anyway

We know the "disciple who Jesus loved" is John from John, and in the last chapter, the book is explicitly attributed to him as "the one who testifies of these things and wrote them down", in the typical third-person way of this sort of literature.

If you care what other people close in time thought, we know that for example, Clement of Alexandria believed this based on tradition as well. Of course, we can suspend judgement: we have no way of knowing. But in the absence of clear contradictory evidence, I don't think it's unreasonable to rest on the side of "whatever the text and the closest contemporaries we have thought."

> sources cited,

What do you mean by this?

> AIUI, the writings in 'Mark' (the first of the four) strongly suggest post-70CE, but perhaps much later.

This argument rests entirely on what I alluded to earlier. As I mentioned, from a purely secular perspective, it isn't surprising that someone could guess that Jerusalem would someday be destroyed. It happened many times before! On top of this, the political situation was delicate, and very similar to the last time Jerusalem had been destroyed. But setting all that aside:

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Mark-Chapter-13/

Read this and tell me if this is a clear, definite allusion to the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 70, or a vague handwavy prophecy about "Bad Things Will Happen and the Temple will be destroyed".

Eventually. If anything, it's very confused, since if you assume the passage is talking about the 70AD war, it's clearly also being mixed up with the actual end of the world. It seems just as likely as vague statements that could easily be fit into later actual events. The Greek world was certainly absolutely rife with these things. No doubt it helped the Christians to point to a vague "prophecy" and say "see, we told you!" and helped its spread, which in turn made it more likely for the text to survive to present day.

Historiography is not really an exact science, and it's very fad-driven. The academic consensus goes back and forth over time, depending on what's in fashion and who has died. That’s why relatively unsurprising archeological finds often result in major historiographical shifts.

Amezarak commented on Interactive map of Paul's first century travels in Roman world   intofarlands.com/map-of-p... · Posted by u/intofarlands
cheraderama · 20 hours ago
Acts is fiction (likely based on the epistles and Josephus). There are 7 undisputed Pauline epistles (though a few scholars even believe none of them are real - most recently Nina Livesey). So his itinerary certainly wasn't as vast as depicted here (also, it's impossible). Itinerant preachers were supported by communities they preached to. Also, Paul is urging people to give money to his 'collection for the saints'. There is no word what happened to it (neither in Acts). Hmm...
Amezarak · 19 hours ago
There’s nothing in Acts that could be said to come from Josephus, what do you mean? Josephus does not mention Paul at all and has only a brief disputed reference to Jesus.
Amezarak commented on Interactive map of Paul's first century travels in Roman world   intofarlands.com/map-of-p... · Posted by u/intofarlands
Jedd · a day ago
> The Gospels probably weren't written by the apostles they were attributed to, either.

We absolutely know for sure that those books weren't written by the 'names' used - we just know that none of the authors identified themselves, or cited any sources - and were written 40-100 years after the events they claim to detail.

Amezarak · 19 hours ago
We don’t know that for sure, and the author of John does clearly identify himself in-text..

Everyone also agrees Luke-Acts is written by the same person, and that Acts shifts to a first-person perspective during the account of Paul’s journeys.

It’s not currently in fashion to think they were written by their the people they are named after, but it’s not implausible; the strongest argument for later dating of the gospels is simply that they all are perceived to clearly prophecy the destruction of Jerusalem, which did occur circa 70AD. But there’s no particular reason, even from a secular perspective, to assume this wasn’t just a reasonable guess about the future given past history and the contemporary political environment. Also, it seems relevant that our earliest sources given them those credits.

Amezarak commented on A German ISP changed their DNS to block my website   lina.sh/blog/telefonica-s... · Posted by u/shaunpud
petre · 3 days ago
> It’s their job to persuade their fellows.

Sorry, I'm more confortable with RT being blocked than having another Adolf Hitler screaming their own propaganda.

Screw Russia and China. The Internet blocking committee should probably also block Tiktok while they're at it, as it makes people's brains rot.

Amezarak · 3 days ago
> Sorry, I'm more confortable with RT being blocked than having another Adolf Hitler screaming their own propaganda.

Is that really a good example? Weimar Germany regularly suppressed and censored Nazi newspapers and publications, shut down hundreds of Nazi newspapers, and even at one point suppressed party gatherings.[1] Obviously, it did not work, and the Nazis used the same laws and precedent to suppress their enemies when they took power, and were able to campaign with statements like "in all of Germany, why are WE silenced?"

You can take two things away from this:

1. Weimar should have suppressed the Nazis EVEN HARDER. Weimar needed an even more stringent censorship regime, shutting down any publication and arresting the editors at the slightest whiff of wrongthink. They should have deployed informers to identify and arrest dissidents before they broke out into the public arena.

OR

2. Weimar Germany was a deeply unpopular and dysfunctional regime that had already failed. Governments should do better to represent the interests of their people so that things never get to that point. The Nazis would never have obtained any power if Germany had been doing well and people felt represented by their government, no matter what kind of crazy propaganda they put out; people don't choose extremism because of propaganda, they become propagandized when they are deeply disaffected. Censorship only further delegitimized the regime and increased the popularity of the Nazis, as it showed they were a threat to the people in power that were perceived to be mismanaging the country.

[1] https://www.thefire.org/news/blogs/eternally-radical-idea/wo...

Amezarak commented on A German ISP changed their DNS to block my website   lina.sh/blog/telefonica-s... · Posted by u/shaunpud
mtsr · 3 days ago
Some people mainly come to political positions for emotional reasons rather than substantive ones. These people are generally easy to reach for populists and propagandists.

Many of the real problems in society, unfortunately, have no easy solutions and require very substantive evaluation, weighing expert opinions, etc. In the current environment it has become very hard to get a lot of people to even consider these or, if they want, elect someone to do it in their stead.

TLDR: populism + propaganda causes significant dysfunction in democracies, especially ones that aren’t winner-takes-all.

Amezarak · 3 days ago
None of these problems are new. The problems have been well-understood since the founding of all Western democracies and we accepted that trade off, as we decided the alternative systems were all worse. You can find this very debate in newspapers and CC notes (in America)at the time, about “false rumors” stirred up by “designing men.”

These are all the exact same arguments made by regimes like the CCP as to why their authoritarian methods are necessary. It’s all for the public order and the public good as unfortunately, many people are stirred up even against their own interest by meddlers, demagogues, and foreign interests. Fortunately, the CCP knows better, as the Party makes sure that the experts are making decisions based on all the data.

I would prefer to live in a democracy, and it astounds me to see people in the West repeating word for word what Russians and Chinese regime apologists say about their governments, all while explaining it’s all necessary to protect democracy.

Amezarak commented on A German ISP changed their DNS to block my website   lina.sh/blog/telefonica-s... · Posted by u/shaunpud
simonask · 3 days ago
A crucial component of democracy is free and accurate media. Every single functioning democracy in the world has institutions that can apply some amount of sanctions against newspapers and other media that do no live up to the expectation of accuracy.

They are struggling to figure out how to do this in the Information Age, but that doesn’t mean it’s not reasonable or important. Blocking propaganda posing as “news” is a stopgap measure, but we can’t do nothing if we want democracy to work.

Amezarak · 3 days ago
When exactly was there “free and accurate” media? Did you mistake the restrictions on some 20th century broadcast media that originated as a consequence of government licensing as some sort of centuries-old universal truth prior to social media? If anything newspapers in particular used to be much more irresponsible and scandalous, certainly as bad as anything on Twitter. And yes, there was plenty of foreign influence operations as well.
Amezarak commented on A German ISP changed their DNS to block my website   lina.sh/blog/telefonica-s... · Posted by u/shaunpud
mtsr · 3 days ago
Because it’s turning out that too many people are susceptible to (this specific, but also other) propaganda.
Amezarak · 3 days ago
If you think the masses are too susceptible to unapproved propaganda to the extent we have to censor it, it’s not clear to me that you can consistently believe democracy should be your form of government, as opposed to some sort of rule by experts/the rich/the educated/aristocrats/something else. It’s effectively saying the masses get a choice unless it’s the wrong choice.

I believe in democracy. If people want to listen to ridiculous and false Russian propaganda or support Russia against Ukraine they should be able to without hindrance, even if their politicians or the better informed don’t like it. It’s their job to persuade their fellows. They shouldn’t get to declare their beliefs are right and beyond democratic contestation.

Sometimes democracies make really bad decisions. Alciabiades conned the Athenians into the disastrous Sicilian Expedition. That’s the tradeoff you get for having a democracy. Declaring some subjects out of bounds is taking away democracy and installing something else instead, with those tradeoffs, that we as a society decided we weren’t going to make, without consensus.

Amezarak commented on 4chan will refuse to pay daily online safety fines, lawyer tells BBC   bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c... · Posted by u/donpott
hdgvhicv · 5 days ago
No post war U.K. government aside from the 2010-15 coalition had a majority of voters voting for the parties in power. 1951 came close I think.

However opinion polls consistently put support for the “anti porn” bill up high amongst multiple demographics.

The cause for this is a lack of computer literacy, in both government and the population, but that doesn’t really matter.

Amezarak · 4 days ago
Opinion polling is largely bunk. In addition to the problem with getting a good polling sample today, questions are carefully crafted to achieve the desired results. Opinion polls are for shaping consensus, not reporting it.

Consider how badly off "will you vote R or D in 7 days" polling is in the US, even with the top national experts on the problem. Opinion polls are much, much more troublesome.

Amezarak commented on Why you can’t grow cool-climate plants in hot climates   crimepaysbutbotanydoesnt.... · Posted by u/surprisetalk
lazide · 4 days ago
Not that you’re wrong, but I find it darkly amusing that rather than than cut back on all the crazy things we’re doing, it would make sense to instead bio engineer a bunch of plant life to deal instead.
Amezarak · 4 days ago
That's a good practice anyway. Focusing on the capability to flexibly adapt our agriculture ensures long-term survivability. Focusing on hyper-efficient extraction that assumes a steady state gives a high-output but incredibly fragile agricultural industry. One black swan event, like a few volcanic eruptions, and we're all toast - and of course, the climate is constantly shifting even in the absence of such events and human inputs, just more slowly.

u/Amezarak

KarmaCake day3894December 21, 2013View Original