There is a security question I have been having regarding /e/OS (and I guess Lineage as well). For at least some devices, /e/OS (and again, probably Lineage) use the Google test keys instead of their own signing keys.
Doesn't that mean that I could write an app, sign it with those keys (they are public, since they are for testing), and then have it behave like a "system" app on those devices? Isn't that how a system app proves to the system that it is, in fact, a system app?
I can understand the "I am not paranoid and I don't really mind about an evil maid attack, so I don't need to relock my bootloader". But isn't it risky to use the Google test keys to sign the whole system?
Not trying to criticise Lineage and /e/OS here: I'm hoping that someone knowledgeable about this will be able to help me understand the actual risks.
Lineage is better and Graphene is obviously the gold standard which provides better privacy and security for normal people. The author is wrong in thinking you gotta be some journalist to use it. GrapheneOS is for everyone
i don't see how you can conclude from that article that lineage is better. do you have some reference to that? /e/OS is built on top of lineage. i can't imagine that they would make things worse.
grapheneOS only runs on expensive pixel phones. until i can buy a phone that runs grapheneOS for $100 or less, it is not for everyone.
> Isn't that how a system app proves to the system that it is, in fact, a system app?
No.
In a way it does not matter if the app is system or not. Even user apps (signed with some other key) can be powerful to do damage.
System partitions cannot be edited due to SELinux and also thesedays the partition ext4 is created with certain blocks - cant be changed.
Yes one can use magisk to do some gimmick - but that is kinda telling OS - Allow me to do anything.
The notion of locked bootloader as a holy grail against anything is stupidity. Apps inherently have too much power - assuming user somehow granted permissions. (or you are from a 3-letter organisation - incl. NSO)
>In a way it does not matter if the app is system or not. Even user apps (signed with some other key) can be powerful to do damage.
That might be true, but at the same time you shouldn't run random scripts off the internet as root, even though there are plenty of EoP or RCE exploits. The same applies to letting random apps get privileged permissions, even if sophisticated attackers can bypass those permissions with 0days.
>System partitions cannot be edited due to SELinux and also thesedays the partition ext4 is created with certain blocks - cant be changed.
That's irrelevant on Android because system apps can be updated without touching the /system partition, if the .apk is signed with the same key. The system will store the updated .apk file in /data/app, but otherwise grant it privileged permissions that only system apps can get. That's how google play services can update itself and still keep its privileged status, even though the phone OS hasn't been updated in years.
This does not sound very informed, to be honest. I can also throw random words like SELinux and NSO, but that's not bringing anything to the discussion.
I'm not sure why the author counts microG as "appeasing google". microG is a full, open source reimplementation and won't send any data to google (or anyone else) unless you specifically enable the parts of the API that do that (notably, push notifications) - and even then, the amount is reduced.
Furthermore, microG can be installed on LineageOS, as can the official play services. Either of these choices gives you compatibility with anything that doesn't require play integrity - just like with GrapheneOS.
The main reason I stopped using Lineage is because I got a Pixel and wanted to keep maximum picture quality with it. Open-source photo applications, from what I understood, cannot access all of the hardware features to get photos as good as Google's app.
Is it enough to get the Google Camera APK somewhere else and use it? Or do I really need to keep the OS as Google intended, in order to get best picture quality? I don't have the time lately to do much tinkering and compare it by myself.
> The main reason I stopped using Lineage is because I got a Pixel and wanted to keep maximum picture quality with it.
I think if you get a Pixel, then you should use either Stock Android or GrapheneOS. I don't see the point in using something else.
> Is it enough to get the Google Camera APK somewhere else and use it?
With GrapheneOS, you can install the Play Services, the Play Store and then the Google Camera. I would be surprised if that wasn't enough. In fact I would be surprised if you needed more than the Camera APK. But like you, I haven't made the comparison. Would be interesting!
>With GrapheneOS, you can install the Play Services, the Play Store
Why use GrapheneOS if you are going to install Google Services anyway? The whole point of Graphene is to have a fully locked down OS that still works as it should. A mobile fortress basically. Installing Google Services defeats the point imo as it opens multiple security holes in the fortress.
May as well just install the stock os. At the end of the day, once Google stops shipping sec updates for your phone, firmware updates stop so that's it really. Graphene cannot give you the firmware updates anyway. And at that point, you have a vulnerable phone. I think graphene os makes more sense if you go all in. Otherwise there is no much point really.
I think the same issue was had if you used an Xperia phone long ago (I think mine was an XZ1c). It was really disappointing that the camera was worse if not using official software due to DRM keys or what not.
The Pixel Camera app is on the Play Store, and I was able to install it just fine on my Pixel 8 running GrapheneOS (inside a separate profile running Google Play Services, not my main profile)
The google camera app should be enough. It's commonly done on GrapheneOS. But the GrapheneOS camera app uses some of the same hooks so it's not as far from Google Camera as some others.
Surprised that Sailfish OS is not there. I assume the only reason it says "Android-based" is to run Android apps. Sailfish is not android based but it can android apps. Seems like the perfect balance, live on a parallel reality and just dip into Androidland when you need it to. Only con is that like Graphene, it only works on specific devices. It's not free though but it is an alternative worth considering.
I would never recommend this article for anyone looking for comparison. It's wrong in so many ways. Your opinions are highly biased and it's an extremely poor attempt to make GrapheneOS look bad. For a factual and technical comparison, I would suggest this blog post series: https://www.kuketz-blog.de/android-grapheneos-calyxos-und-co...
It's well written and focuses on facts rather than poorly made assumptions
The article misses the substantial privacy improvements made by GrapheneOS and heavily downplays the importance of security. There are widespread use of exploits, not only in targeted attacks. It also omits the fact that the other operating systems which are brought up have years of delays for important privacy and security patches while not providing all the standard Android Open Source Project privacy and security protections. Not having kernel and browser updates for months, not shipping current driver and firmware updates and not keeping up with the bare minimum partial backports of AOSP patches to older releases is quite problematic. Beyond that, providing full Android privacy and security patches requires being on the latest releases. It's also strange to talk about the hardware requirements listed at https://grapheneos.org/faq#future-devices as if those are unknown and not well documented. A device not receiving privacy/security patches for drivers and firmware is major a problem regardless of the OS choice. Not having secure disk encryption for the majority of users not setting a strong passphrase due to lack of a good secure element is another major issue. These requirements don't exist for no reason and GrapheneOS is working with a major OEM on making a device that's at least a sidegrade from a Pixel and then later a security upgrade over it. No devices other than Pixels are providing a reasonable level of security combined with allowing another OS. Lagging very far behind on patches and lacking working disk encryption for most users isn't doing the bare minimum.
GrapheneOS doesn't do anything which reduces USB-C functionality beyond having a setting which blocks new USB-C connections and then disables USB-C when locked by default which can be turned off.
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Doesn't that mean that I could write an app, sign it with those keys (they are public, since they are for testing), and then have it behave like a "system" app on those devices? Isn't that how a system app proves to the system that it is, in fact, a system app?
I can understand the "I am not paranoid and I don't really mind about an evil maid attack, so I don't need to relock my bootloader". But isn't it risky to use the Google test keys to sign the whole system?
Not trying to criticise Lineage and /e/OS here: I'm hoping that someone knowledgeable about this will be able to help me understand the actual risks.
Lineage is better and Graphene is obviously the gold standard which provides better privacy and security for normal people. The author is wrong in thinking you gotta be some journalist to use it. GrapheneOS is for everyone
grapheneOS only runs on expensive pixel phones. until i can buy a phone that runs grapheneOS for $100 or less, it is not for everyone.
No.
In a way it does not matter if the app is system or not. Even user apps (signed with some other key) can be powerful to do damage.
System partitions cannot be edited due to SELinux and also thesedays the partition ext4 is created with certain blocks - cant be changed.
Yes one can use magisk to do some gimmick - but that is kinda telling OS - Allow me to do anything.
The notion of locked bootloader as a holy grail against anything is stupidity. Apps inherently have too much power - assuming user somehow granted permissions. (or you are from a 3-letter organisation - incl. NSO)
That might be true, but at the same time you shouldn't run random scripts off the internet as root, even though there are plenty of EoP or RCE exploits. The same applies to letting random apps get privileged permissions, even if sophisticated attackers can bypass those permissions with 0days.
>System partitions cannot be edited due to SELinux and also thesedays the partition ext4 is created with certain blocks - cant be changed.
That's irrelevant on Android because system apps can be updated without touching the /system partition, if the .apk is signed with the same key. The system will store the updated .apk file in /data/app, but otherwise grant it privileged permissions that only system apps can get. That's how google play services can update itself and still keep its privileged status, even though the phone OS hasn't been updated in years.
Furthermore, microG can be installed on LineageOS, as can the official play services. Either of these choices gives you compatibility with anything that doesn't require play integrity - just like with GrapheneOS.
Lineage + Magisk does not do that for me. I've tried the modules, zygisk/lsposed, deny lists, all that jazz - the app still says no.
The main reason I stopped using Lineage is because I got a Pixel and wanted to keep maximum picture quality with it. Open-source photo applications, from what I understood, cannot access all of the hardware features to get photos as good as Google's app.
Is it enough to get the Google Camera APK somewhere else and use it? Or do I really need to keep the OS as Google intended, in order to get best picture quality? I don't have the time lately to do much tinkering and compare it by myself.
I think if you get a Pixel, then you should use either Stock Android or GrapheneOS. I don't see the point in using something else.
> Is it enough to get the Google Camera APK somewhere else and use it?
With GrapheneOS, you can install the Play Services, the Play Store and then the Google Camera. I would be surprised if that wasn't enough. In fact I would be surprised if you needed more than the Camera APK. But like you, I haven't made the comparison. Would be interesting!
Why use GrapheneOS if you are going to install Google Services anyway? The whole point of Graphene is to have a fully locked down OS that still works as it should. A mobile fortress basically. Installing Google Services defeats the point imo as it opens multiple security holes in the fortress.
May as well just install the stock os. At the end of the day, once Google stops shipping sec updates for your phone, firmware updates stop so that's it really. Graphene cannot give you the firmware updates anyway. And at that point, you have a vulnerable phone. I think graphene os makes more sense if you go all in. Otherwise there is no much point really.
I keep hearing this name, "Sailfish OS", but I just don't know what it is. I probably should have a look one of these days :-).
It's well written and focuses on facts rather than poorly made assumptions
The article describes downsides to all 3 options, and everything they say about GOS seems reasonable to me; what exactly do you find objectionable?
GrapheneOS doesn't do anything which reduces USB-C functionality beyond having a setting which blocks new USB-C connections and then disables USB-C when locked by default which can be turned off.