Readit News logoReadit News
kvemkon · 11 days ago
> 128 KB appears a point of diminishing returns, larger block sizes yield similar or worse performance.

Indeed, 128 KB is a well-known long lasted optimal buffer size [1], [2].

Until it has been increased to 256 KB recently (07.04.2024) [3].

[1] https://github.com/MidnightCommander/mc/commit/e7c01c7781dcd...

[2] https://github.com/MidnightCommander/mc/issues/2193

[3] https://github.com/MidnightCommander/mc/commit/933b111a5dc7d...

jandrewrogers · 11 days ago
This doesn't generalize.

In 2014, the common heuristic was 256kB based on measurements in many systems, so the 128kB value is in line with that. At the time, optimal block sizing wasn't that sensitive to the I/O architecture so many people arrived at the same values.

In 2024, the optimal block size based on measurement largely reflects the quality and design of your I/O architecture. Vast improvements in storage hardware expose limitations of the software design to a much greater extent than a decade ago. As a general observation, the optimal I/O sizing in sophisticated implementations has been trending toward smaller sizes over the last decade, not larger.

The seeming optimality of large block sizes is often a symptom of an I/O scheduling design that can't keep up with the performance of current storage hardware.

marginalia_nu · 11 days ago
I think what you're trying to accomplish is a factor here.

If you just want to saturate the bandwidth, to move some coherent blob of data from point A to point B as fast as possible (say you're implementing the `cp` command), then using large buffers is the best and easiest way. Small buffers confer no additional benefit other than driving more complicated designs, forcing io_uring with registered buffers and fds, etc.

If you want to maximize IOPS, then by the fact that we just established that large buffers saturate the bandwidth better, small buffers is the only viable option, but then you need to whittle down the per-read overhead, and end up with io_uring or even more specialized tools.

marginalia_nu · 11 days ago
I wonder if a more robust option is to peek in the sysfs queue info on Linux.

It has some nice information about hardware io operation limits, and also an optimal_io_size hint.

https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/v5.3/block/queue-sysfs.html

marginalia_nu · 11 days ago
I urge you to read the papers and articles I linked at the end if any of this is your jam. They are incredible bangers all of them.
6r17 · 11 days ago
Thanks for sharing this !
codeaether · 11 days ago
Actually, to fully utilize NVME performance, one really need to try to avoid OS overhead by leveraging AsyncIO such as IO_Uring. In fact, 4KB page works quite well if you can issue enough outstanding requests. See a paper from the link below by the TUM folks.

https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.14778/3598581.3598584

dataflow · 11 days ago
SPDK is what folks who really care about this use, I think.
jandrewrogers · 11 days ago
The only thing SPDK buys you is somewhat lower latency, which isn't that important for most applications because modern high-performance I/O schedulers usually are not that latency sensitive anyway.

The downside of SPDK is that it is unreasonably painful to use in most contexts. When it was introduced there were few options for doing high-performance storage I/O but a lot has changed since then. I know many people that have tested SPDK in storage engines, myself included, but none that decided the juice was worth the squeeze.

vlovich123 · 11 days ago
SPDK requires taking over the device. OP is correct if you want to have a multi tenant application where the disk is also used for other things.
marginalia_nu · 11 days ago
As part of the problem domain in index lookups, issuing multiple requests at the same time is not possible, unless as part of some entirely guess-based readahead scheme thay may indeed drive up disk utilization but are unlikely to do much else. Large blocks are a solution with that constraint as a given.

That paper seems to mostly focus on throughput via concurrent independent queries, rather than single-query performance. It's arriving at a different solution because it's optimizing for a different variable.

throwaway81523 · 11 days ago
In most search engines the top few tree layers are in ram cache, and can also have disk addresses for the next levels. So maybe that can let you start some concurrent requests.
Veserv · 11 days ago
Large block reads are just a readahead scheme where you prefetch the next N small blocks. So you are just stating that contiguous readahead is close enough to arbitrary readahead especially if you tune your data structure appropriately to optimize for larger regions of locality.
ozgrakkurt · 11 days ago
4KB is much slower than 512KB if you are using the whole data. Smaller should be better if there is read amplification
kvemkon · 11 days ago
> 256 KB vs 512 B

> A counter argument might be that this drives massive read amplification,

For that, one need to know the true minimal block size SSD controller is able to physically read from flash. Asking for less than this wouldn't avoid the amplification.

jeffbee · 11 days ago
Fun post. One unmentioned parameter is the LBA format being used. Most devices come from the factory configured for 512B, so you can boot NetWare or some other dumb compatibility concern. But there isn't a workload from this century where this makes sense, so it pays to explore the performance impact of the LBA formats your device offers. Using a larger one can mean your device manages io backlogs more efficiently.
mgerdts · 11 days ago
> Modern enterprise NVMe SSDs are very fast…. This is a simple benchmark on a Samsung PM9A1 on a with a theoretical maximum transfer rate of 3.5 GB/s. … It should be noted that this is a sub-optimal setup that is less powerful than what the PM9A1 is capable of due to running on a downgraded PCIe link.

Samsung has client, datacenter, and enterprise lines. The PM9A1 is part of the OEM client segment and is about the same as a 980 Pro. Its top speeds (about 7GB/s read, 5GB/s write) are better than the comparable datacenter class drive, PM9A3. This top speeds comes with less consistent performance than you get with a PM9A3 or an enterprise drive like a PM1733 from the same era (early PCIe Gen 4 drives).

dataflow · 11 days ago
Beginner(?) question: why is the model

  map<term_id, 
      list<pair<document_id, positions_idx>>
     > inverted_index;
and not

  map<term_id, 
      map<document_id, list<positions_idx>>
     > inverted_index;
(or using set<> in lieu of list<> as appropriate)?

marginalia_nu · 11 days ago
This is to be seen as metaphorical to give a mental model for the actual data structures on disk so there's some tradeoff to finding the most accurate metaphor for what is happening.

I actually think you are right, list<pair<...>> is a bit of a weird choice that doesn't quite convey the data structures quite well. Map is better.

The most accurate thing would probably be something like map<term_id, map<document_id, pair<document_id, positions_idx>>>, but I corrected it to just a map<document_id, positions_idx> to avoid making things too confusing.

ch33zer · 11 days ago
Currently it looks like this:

    map<term_id, 
      map<pair<document_id, positions_idx>>
      inverted_index;
list<positions> positions;

Think you also meant to remove the pair in map<pair>?

Dead Comment