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Posted by u/camillomiller 10 days ago
What makes you still work for Meta, when it's clear how toxic the company is?
The more I read about Zuckerberg's thoughts on the future of AI, and the more it's unveiled about the shady practices the company has been engaging in for more than a decade, the more I can't find an answer to a simple question: how can so many brilliant, probably ethically sound people, still work for such a company?

I'm focusing on Meta, but the same goes for Palantir and such ilk of companies whose clear and only output is a net negative for society.

Is it really just money? Or do you actually believe these companies are not the societal wrecking balls they are? Would you argue that their toxicity itself is not as evident as I claim? You just don't give a damn?

I understand this is a provocative question, but bear with me and possibly change my mind. I'm genuinely curious.

harmonic18374 · 10 days ago
I know someone (not an engineer) who was applying to jobs for a long time and got a 100% pay increase from moving to Meta, about $60k -> $120k. In such circumstances, it is difficult to turn down such a job. You are only one small part of the machine and it is such a quality of life increase (in USA), I cannot imagine many people saying no.

Some other common reasons that I disagree with, but are quite defensible:

"Well-targeted advertising is a net positive, or at least not hugely negative, for the world. Better targeting has helped many small businesses succeed where they would otherwise not been able to get customers"

"I am working on account security/React/ML/etc which is a good thing. I don't endorse all the bad things"

"It is more complicated than it seems, and most people at Meta try to do the right thing"

"I might as well work at the company and try to make it better from the inside" (while making lots of money)

tock · 10 days ago
I think people know they are making the world a worse place. But the salaries are insanely high. It wont change until society frowns upon the job. Also it makes the world worse through second order effects so its easy to not think about it.
QuadmasterXLII · 10 days ago
At this point meta’s reputation is bad enough that, just by supply and demand, they must be paying a premium for worse performers
haute_cuisine · 10 days ago
What makes you buy conventional dairy farmed products? It's clear how harmful it's for a well being of cows/calves.

What makes you buy chocolate from giant corps that have slave/child labour in their supply chain?

whiteboardr · 10 days ago
You’re bringing up the topic of spending money mindfully while the question is about earning it.
haute_cuisine · 10 days ago
You do save (= earn) when buying cheaper products without asking questions why it's so cheap.
croes · 10 days ago
Everything anyone does is harmful for someone else. No matter of you eat meat or be a vegan.

But there are different kinds of harm.

burnt-resistor · 9 days ago
Reductive, equivocation that can rationalize any travesty because other people are doing it too. That's the shittiest take possible.
zveyaeyv3sfye · 10 days ago
> Everything anyone does is harmful for someone else.

That's wildly false.

Prove me wrong.

camillomiller · 10 days ago
Funnily enough, I’m vegan and I avoid Nestlé products at all costs.

Deleted Comment

mrjay42 · 10 days ago
haute_cuisine · 10 days ago
I appreciate you linking the fallacies, but I don't think they're relevant here because answer to both questions (mine's and author's) is the same and I don't try to discredit the author, just offering to examine their own experience to better relate to people earning $500k/y at facebook.
JKCalhoun · 10 days ago
Interesting topics for another thread.
frcadwaladyr · 10 days ago
They get this thing called money which allows them to acquire the goods and services needed to remain alive. In the US, they also get the health insurance needed for the decent medical care to remain. Throw in supporting one or dependents needing those things as well, and it’s pretty easy to see why any one individual would remain employed there.
znpy · 10 days ago
I’ll relay what i’ve been told years ago when moving similar arguments myself:

“If I don’t take that job (and that fat paycheque) then someone else will. Whatever Meta is set to accomplish, irrespective of whether it’s actually evil or not, will most likely be achieved. So might as well take the job and the money. As a bonus, you get to work on interesting stuff rather than the usual CRUD webapp.”

And the sad truth is, they were right.

Not only that, marketing yourself as an ex-FAANG afterwards (whether the faang is meta or whatever) will likely yield better positions or salary anyway. And the experience you get working on larger scale systems (along with much higher quality standards) improves you a lot as an engineer.

So long story short, it’s mostly upsides.

smokel · 10 days ago
There are many places at Meta that seem to be quite interesting for researchers. You get to play with a lot of hardware, with other talented people, and you can open-source some of your work.

It's all a slippery slope anyway. If you were to work for yourself and publish your research, people might do bad things with it anyway. Consider YOLO [1] as an example of where things might have gone wrong. Another fine example is Fritz Haber [2], who intended some of his inventions for good, some for bad, but eventually society found a way to reverse his intentions.

Given that most computer scientists are pretty good at putting things in perspective, they might come to the conclusion that working for Meta isn't so bad in the grander scheme of things. Slaving away in academia and having your work ignored isn't a very tempting alternative.

Instead of considering how we can make smart people stop working for idiots, it might be more fruitful to spread the idea that we should stop worshipping idiots altogether. If there is one thing I miss from the days when religion was still a thing, it is this suggestion [3].

[1] https://www.deeplearning.ai/the-batch/code-no-evil/

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Haber

[3] Exodus 20:3-5

Eddy_Viscosity2 · 10 days ago
It seems like the argument is that doing science/tech-development for an organization which both has and adheres to benevolent intents and goals, or even just going on your own is the same as working for a company that is intending from the onset to use the work malevolently. Because, all tech gets abused eventually.

This is a terrible argument and is defeatist in the same was as 'what does anything matter at all if the sun is going to explode'.

If you choose to do work for bad leaders, you are going bad in the same way that 'just following orders' for bad things is also bad. You are responsible for the outcomes in those cases. If you are ok with the resulting bad outcomes because the science was interesting and the pay is good, that's your decision. But there is no absolution just because you can suppose that someone else would have done it so it might as well have been you.

smokel · 9 days ago
> what does anything matter at all if the sun is going to explode

It would not surprise me if this is the exact reasoning that underpins decisions made by leaders of these big companies.

It's terribly hard to convince some people that this is not a sound argument.

In fact, I think it's mostly an evolutionary trait that most of us have, but looking at other species, I don't think it's universal to help others.

JohnFen · 10 days ago
> If you were to work for yourself and publish your research, people might do bad things with it anyway.

There's a whole world of difference between someone using your work in a way that you find objectionable and volunteering to accept a paycheck doing work for a company that you know will be using the work they're paying for in a way that you find objectionable.

This is why I have to assume that anybody working for a company is fine with what that company does.

burnt-resistor · 9 days ago
"Playing" misses the forest for the trees when the result is dystopian drain on society at best to enabling genocides in Myanmar at worst. Choices have consequences and culpability.

Those who worked for IBM voluntarily and serviced the Third Reich if they suspected what was happening and did nothing were collaborators in mass murder. Engineering and all professional disciplines must be restrained by honesty and ethics.

ajay-b · 9 days ago
One of their recruiters, a fellow named Josh, hounded me for months to join Meta, and we went back and forth about the merits, the chance to work on something huge, but when he boiled all down.. it was the money. Meta pays a lot for the people they want, and that just wasn't enough for me.