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Posted by u/abhixec 5 months ago
Ask HN: Is Linux for laptop worth the trouble?
As someone who has been using Arch/Void + XMonad (and now Gnome), and with the price of the MacBook Air (M-series) falling within an affordable range, is it worth continuing to fiddle with Linux?

I’ve come to the conclusion that the MacBook Air’s M-series chip is just amazing. Nothing really compares to the battery life and quietness of this machine. Not to mention, some of the default apps (Notes, Reminders, Shortcuts, passwords, safari, etc.) seem incredibly hard to beat. And if you are into the eco-system you don't have to pay for different services.

I’m curious about other people's thoughts on this. I’d love to hear a Change My View (CMV) on this.

noobermin · 5 months ago
May be things have changed over the last 10 years but HN comments literally convinced me to switch to a macbook a decade ago and it was literally one of the worst experiences with a product of my life. Everyone who says mac is unix and is just as good as linux is a fool and should never be trusted.

If you want, you can search my username with "macbook" and see my rants since 2015. The worst experience I had with it was it glitching out a hour before a national conference presentation that forced me to remake the slides on another person's laptop. I was sitting in the audience sweating bullets remaking those slides over the course of a grueling hour or so. I have never had the desire to buy another apple product since then and I don't miss it.

Linux just works, especially if you have a machine it works well on. Don't believe the naysayers, learn from my exprience.

0manrho · 5 months ago
> Everyone who says mac is unix and is just as good as linux is a fool and should never be trusted.

Seconded.

> Linux just works

While there are instances where this is the case (System76 hardware w/ PopOS for example), This is certainly not true in the general, and this is coming from someone that's been on linux since the dotcom era. It's very very important you get a well supported device or it most certainly does not "just work", and that's goes triple if you're not using some flavor of ubuntu/debian (in the past fedora generally does pretty good too but I've not been keeping up with the fedora sphere since IBM drove me away from the redhat/fedora/centOS ecosphere). Thankfully, there's never been more options or support for linux on laptop, so it's not as near as difficult to achieve as it once was.

Linux does what it's told, which is why I love it, but if you don't know what you're doing, and/or if the autoconfiguration tools/drivers aren't compatible with the hardware in question, you've got a recipe for frustration for anyone that's new to linux/not in the mood to tinker.

noufalibrahim · 5 months ago
Thirded!

I jumped from DOS in the mid 90s to Solaris to Linux in about 2001. BEen on it since. I got my first personal laptop in 2004 or so (IBM thinkpad T42). Then went through 2 X series laptops and am currently on an X1 carbon.

I consulted for a company for 2.5 years where I used a mac.

Maybe it's just me but I found the mac ecosystem very crummy. On Debian, when I wanted postgres, I did an apt-get and got it sort of like Trinity in the matrix asking for helicopter pilot skills. With the mac, I installed it using brew. That didn't work so there was an app for it and that had its own quirks. I put it down to my lack of familiarity with the system. I would have invested time to get familiar with it but, and this is my second point, Linux was did "just work" for 95% of what I wanted. All the annoying things about sound drivers, wifi cards, usb, fonts, video etc. from the 90s were not problems anymore. There were a few things that I needed to get running but they weren't deal killers. Definitely not as rough as what I had with postgres on the mac.

Hardware wise, I agree with the OP, I don't think think anything comes close to Apple's offering at that price point. The reason I stay away from it is because of the software. I much prefer Linux. There are also tangential points like working on the exact OS and machine where I'm going to actually deploy/debug production apps on is useful. This is alleviated to some extent by using a Linux VM on a mac if that's what you do.

cassianoleal · 5 months ago
I have used MacBooks as my main workstation for about 15 years and still do.

My initial transition from Debian to OS X was painful. Once it settled in, it became comfortable. I like a lot of things about it.

I'll keep my M2 Pro for as long as I can but my next laptop is likely to be an AMD Framework to run Debian.

Deleted Comment

bubblebeard · 5 months ago
I’ve used MacBooks since 2008, still do since the company I work for refused to supply PC laptops running anything but Windows.

They can be great if you have a large wallet and simply want a computer that will integrate easily with your iPhone or any other Apple products. I use an iPhone myself because I’ve had bad experiences with Android devices, but every few years I try a new Android phone anyway.

Apple does not care about their end users. The hardware they retail is overprivced and the M chips are over hyped, especially with ARM PC:s now available.

Their OS was great back in 2000-2010 but has since become more and more unstable, while Linux has moved in the opposite direction. Today I would argue Linux is at least as easy to manage.

Some apps integrate better with OS X, and the magnetic charger cable is a plus. Then again, using external monitors is difficult, and if anything breaks in your nice Apple laptop it will be difficult to mend and cost and arm and a leg. All in all, I would stay away from them.

abhixec · 5 months ago
But the sad thing is most manufactures are following apple and soldering the components so repair ability is questionable whichever way we look.
palata · 5 months ago
It's a question of preference.

* Recent Macbooks have an incredible battery life, that's for sure.

* macOS is not Linux, and Linux is not macOS.

I personally like Linux a lot more than macOS, therefore I run Linux on my laptop. It's not a pain at all: just make sure you get a laptop that is well supported (seems a lot easier than 20 years ago, I personally run on ThinkPads).

The way you write (e.g. you see running Linux on a laptop as "a trouble"), you sound like you like macOS better but were using Linux because it was cheaper. In that case go for a Macbook if it's now affordable!

abhixec · 5 months ago
One thing I think macos is better is connecting to high resolution monitors without issues. My attempts to connect my thinkpad x1e to 5k (could be the dreaded nvidia which is causing this) causes so much headache.
jauco · 5 months ago
Just to provide a counterpoint (and to show that there is no 1 true answer) I switched from my linux machine to a mac when my carefully selected hardware kept having a graphics card crash when closing/unclosing the lid. And this was the last straw, it’s an endless sequence of micro cuts (power throttling bugs, scroll being different across apps, issues with crappy hardware at a client)

On the other hand most of these microcuts can be researched, solved or scripted away. With my mac I have far fewer, but the ones you have, you’re often stuck with. Generally these are about flakiness with the automagic stuff. Like the camera feed switching to your iphone for a while (whether you want it or not), then suddenly refusing for weeks even when you do want it.

Also, the mac has no tiling wm that comes within a parsec of i3. I miss i3 daily. So. Much. Especially with multiple screens.

But then again, I enjoy opening the lid of my laptop daily as well. And being able to close the lid and put it in my bag, without first listening if it succesfully went to sleep. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I guess what I’m saying is: pick the annoyances that give you the smallest emotional response at this time in your life.

exe34 · 5 months ago
> With my mac I have far fewer, but the ones you have, you’re often stuck with. Generally these are about flakiness with the automagic stuff. Like the camera feed switching to your iphone for a while (whether you want it or not), then suddenly refusing for weeks even when you do want it

This is the kind of thing I could absolutely not stand unless I was getting paid for it. I paid for the laptop. This button does X. When I press this button, it needs to do X. Let me at least fix it so that it does X. If it was a free laptop or I was getting paid to sit around waiting for X to work again, that's absolutely fine. But if I paid for it, it should either work or let me fix it.

yoyojojofosho · 5 months ago
For i3 WM on macOS, what about https://github.com/nikitabobko/AeroSpace?
abhixec · 5 months ago
I think the laptop lid atleast for me hasnt been an issue lately on my thinkpad.
lproven · 5 months ago
Buy a used Thinkpad. Their compatibility is superb, as many major Linux vendors develop on them. Better to buy older higher-end models than spend the money on newer models. Buy the highest-end model you can afford.

Don't use an ideologically-motivated distro that omits drivers and firmware because they are not Free enough. Use something fairly mainstream, like Ubuntu or Mint.

Update its firmware before you install.

Shrink the Windows partition but keep it, for things like firmware updates. Nuke the recovery partitions, though; they're junk.

Max out the RAM. Have 2 SSDs if they'll fit. OS on one, data on a physically separate one. Used RAM is cheap. Buy matched memory modules.

Avoid wireless anything if you can. Wired peripherals, wired network, wired audio. Wired stuff just works.

ahoka · 5 months ago
Not just Thinkpads work fine (Latitudes are also awesome), what you describe is wisdom from the 2000s. You can just use fwupd to have regular firmware updates, no need to keep Windows just for that. Wireless also works very nice, especially Intel. What can be tricky are fingerprint readers, but some have binary drivers.
lproven · 5 months ago
> Latitudes are also awesome

They are OK, but no better than OK and definitely not awesome. IMHO, the build quality is inferior, the keyboards are inferior, the upgradability is inferior, and the pointing devices are inferior. I don't want gestures, but I very much want 3 mouse buttons: I middle-click things hundreds of times a day.

I have 2 Latitudes in my "fleet" but neither is a machine I especially like.

Davidbrcz · 5 months ago
Wireless is a gamble, wired works.
ofalkaed · 5 months ago
Many modern Thinkpads have superb compatibility as well these days, they sell linux laptops and many of their non-linux laptops are fully linux compatible. From what I saw when I was last laptop shopping much of their lineup works out of the box with linux as long as you use a recent kernel. Just search their support forums for the models you are interested in, there generally will be threads on installing linux on them and Lenovo staff will generally be there providing solutions.
jll29 · 5 months ago
My answer has to be differentiated: I use a MacBook Air with M1 at work_1, and Lenovo ThinkPads X1 at work_2 and at home, both running Ubuntu LTS.

The Mac wins regarding battery life (but deltas are shrinking) and - important when on the move - connecting with various WiFi SSDs (this can be quite critical).

The Linux ThinkPads win regarding keyboard quality, and hackability (as UNIX/Linux person, I prefer Linux' directory organization to MacOS', which is a mix of BSD and non-standard /proprietary stuff). I like than on my Linux boxes, any command is just there, whereas on the MacBook, 60% of the time I need a command not from the top-10, it's not there and I need to brew install it first, which sucks (this could be fixed by making a "distribution" of common commands for brew, I haven't even checked whether that exists).

Until recently, the Mac also won regarding weight, but now with the fantastic ThinkPad X1 Nano there's a high-quality high-mobility device with a great internal keyboard, good batteries and the weight of a feather that runs Ubuntu like a breeze.

So in the end, one ends up using the MacBook as an email/presentation machine and the Linux boxes (and, via ssh, servers of course) for technical work.

Ironically, the M1 in my MacBook doesn't get used for the machine learning research I do as that is all done on beefy (Linux) servers and/or GPU clusters. But it does improve the UI responsiveness.

PS: From my budget at work, I also got an iPad Pro (the lightest/smallest), and I was shocked how heavy it is. As a result, it hardly gets used apart from taking photos and scanning documents with its excellent camera. I was hoping to carry it to meetings, but I instead take the MacBook Air or X1 Nano along, both of which seem much lighter, esp. the latter (<970g). (I never use pens because I type faster than I hand-write and prefer my text to stay searchable; I understand results may look different for pen fans.)

khurs · 5 months ago
> I need a command not from the top-10,it's not there and I need to brew install it first, which sucks (this could be fixed by making a "distribution" of common commands for brew, I haven't even checked whether that exists).

Run 'brew list' to see what you have installed, then write a shell/ansible script to install these.

Save script to your cloud storage/source control and anytime you get a new machine, run the script.

v5v3 · 5 months ago
>I also got an iPad Pro (the lightest/smallest), and I was shocked how heavy it is

iPad pro isn't heavy.

Do you have a heavy case on it? As many cases can weigh the same as the iPad itself or more.

westpfelia · 5 months ago
In my experience its been nothing but a dream. I had the same mint install on a asus zenbook prime from like 2012 to 2022. Battery went from like 5 hours on windows to 6-8 hours on mint. It was great. I do know that sometimes there are werid problems with some of the new "features" shipped in laptops. BUt I would say that looking up a particular laptop that you might be interested in and seeing what kind of linux support it has fixes that problem.

Or you could go 'built for linux' laptops. Librem, System 76, Framework, ect. Or Thinkpads. Those things are tanks and just work.

ofalkaed · 5 months ago
I would recommend spending some time with a none rolling release/less fiddly distro and see what you think. I haven't had to fiddle with linux since I switched to slackware and settled on a wm ~20 years ago; since then the only time I have had an update affect my workflow was when slackware went PulseAudio which only caused me maybe 2 minutes to deal with. I have config files old enough to vote.

My original reasons for switching to linux was Apple disrupting my workflow on each major upgrade and from what I can tell they have not stopped doing that.

skydhash · 5 months ago
I didn’t have issues with rolling release distro in the beginning, as most updates were security updates. But nowadays, I’m on versionned distro. What you’ve started with is what you’re going to get everytime you turn the conputer on. I have debian 12 on my home server and it never crashes or have any issues, just chugging along.
sombragris · 5 months ago
In 2015 I got a Toshiba Satellite Radius convertible laptop with a SSD, touchscreen, USB 3.0... pretty good for the time. I installed Slackware-current and *everything* was supported and recognized. Even the touchscreen under X11.

I'm now using a Dell Inspiron with more updated specs (from 2019), but again, everything is recognized.

*And* I got to upgrade my RAM with a rather simple procedure, zero soldiering required. All of this, running a largely Free (as in freedom) operating system.

Thus I'd answer: yes, a Linux laptop is worth the trouble these days. YMMV of course.