C3 looks promising, but any language that supports nulls needs null-restricted types, not whatever those contract comments are. If I wanted to have to null-check everything, or YOLO it, I would just write Java... and even Java is seeking to fix this: https://openjdk.org/jeps/8303099
It's an interesting problem. Originally I experimented with both having `` and `&` syntax, so `int&` being a ref (non null) and `int` being a pointer. The thing you notice then are two things:
1. You want almost all pointer parameters non null.
2. Non-null variables is very hard to fit in a language without constructors.
Approaches to avoid constructors/destructors such as ZII play very poorly with ref values as well. What you end up with is some period of time where a value is quasi valid - since non-null types need to be assigned and it's in a broken state before it's initially assigned.
It's certainly possible to create generic "type safe" non-null types in C3, but they are not baked into the language.
> Approaches to avoid constructors/destructors such as ZII play very poorly with ref values as well. What you end up with is some period of time where a value is quasi valid - since non-null types need to be assigned and it's in a broken state before it's initially assigned.
I don't see that as a problem; don't separate declaration from assignment and it will never be unassigned. Then a ZII non-null pointer is always a compile-time error.
Nim solves this problem by only having two explicit, restricted nullable types: Pointers and references. Pointers are manually managed, references are automatically managed, both start as nil and must have their referenced objects instantiated manually.
The entire rest of the language is built on pass-by-value using stack values and stack-managed hidden unique pointers. You basically never actually need to use a ref or a pointer unless you're building an interface to a C or C++ library. I having written a 40k line production application with no reference or pointer types anywhere. Almost any case you'd need is covered by simply passing a compound type or dynamic container as a mutable value, where it's impossible to perform any kind of pointer or reference semantics on it. The lifetime is already managed, so semantically it's just a value.
I'm on the fence about function contracts like this. I've seen them for a decade in other languages, but never really used them, so I can't say how I feel about them.
It's a directive that happens to be placed at the tail end of a comment. Reading the documentation the doc comment stops being a comment-proper with the first @-directive, after that it's a list of directives. SPARK started in comments, ACSL is placed in specially marked comments. SPARK 2014 moved into Ada proper using Ada 2012 features (aspects). The difference between SPARK 2014's annotation and this is basically, are the annotations above the function or after the function declaration?
It is different yes, having read a good amount of it by now I find it work's pretty well in practice. It means you can incrementally adopt them if you like and code with or without them looks quite similar assuming you documented your code, the function signatures look the same as well which I appreciate.
After using Rust on a couple of projects, I understand the appeal of simpler languages like C3, Zig, and Odin. As one commenter very aptly put on the Zig subreddit ... "I used Zig for (internal tool) because I wanted to quickly write my tool and debug it, and not spend all my time debugging my knowledge of Rust."
Is Zig really that common at this point that you'd feel comfortable using it for a work project? Its not just going to piss off the next person and have them need to rewrite it? I guess Rust has the same problem to some extent but there is a lot of resources for writing Rust out there now
I suppose the nice thing about zig is that for many things, porting back to C is relatively straightforward and if you wanted to incrementally do it, there's a way to do that, too.
I wouldn't use Zig for something production critical, but other people like TigerBeetle have decided its good enough for them, and they seem to be doing fine commercially, so I just refrain from saying its not production ready.
But one things for sure ... there's just not a lot of sample Zig code out there. Granted its simpler than Rust, but your average AI tool doesn't get how to write idiomatic Zig. Whereas most AI tools seem to get Rust code okay. Maybe idiomatic Zig just isn't a thing yet. Or maybe idiomatic Zig is just like idiomatic C ... in the eye of the beholder.
Depends on the project and the team, yeah? In my opinion, Zig is simple and lends itself to simpler patterns. Ultimately though it's always a trade-off to consider talent, project scope, team preferences, technical challenges, long-term maintenance, etc.
2. It still largely depends on GC (less important actually)
It keeps adding features, but adding features isn't what makes a language worth using. In fact, that's one of the least attractive things about C++ as well.
So my guess:
1. It betted wrong on GC trying to compete with C++.
2. After failing to get traction, kept adding features to it – which felt a bit like there was some feature that would finally be the killer feature of the language.
3. Not understanding that the added features actually made it less attractive.
4. C++ then left the GC track completely and became a more low level alternative to, at which point D ended up in a weird position: neither high level enough to feel like a high level alternative, nor low level enough to compete with C++.
5. Finally: the fact that it's been around for so long and never taking off makes it even harder for it to take off because it's seen as a has-been.
Maybe Walter Bright should create a curated version of D with only the best features. But given how long it takes to create a language and a mature stdlib, that's WAY easier said than done.
The dmd compiler not being open source until 2017[1] made it more or less a non-starter for a great many use cases. That would have been okay in the 80s, but with tons of languages to choose from since the 90s/00s, your language needs something very special to sell licenses.
[1]: Specifically: "The Software is copyrighted and comes with a single user license, and may not be redistributed. If you wish to obtain a redistribution license, please contact Digital Mars."
I think the biggest issue has been trying to always chase the next big thing that eventually could bring mindshare to D, while not finishing the previous attempts, so there are quite a few half baked features by now.
Even Andrei Alexandrescu eventually refocused on C++, and is contributing to some of the C++26 reflection papers.
this is spot on. With all due respect to his technical achievement (and maybe I'm just speaking for myself), Walter Bright very much has a "tryhard" persona online, which gives a lot of developers "the ick".
And yet out all these newer C-like languages, it looks like Hare probably takes the crown for simplicity. Among other things, Hare uses QBE[1] as a backend compiler, which is about 10% the complexity of LLVM.
defer is the kind of thing I would mock up in a hurry in my code if a language or framework lacked the proper facilities, but I think you are better served with the with statement in Python or automated resource management in Java.
Similarly I think people should get over Optional and Either and all of that, my experience is that it is a lot of work to use those tools properly. My first experience with C was circa 1985 when I was porting a terminal emulator for CP/M from Byte magazine to OS-9 on the TRS-80 Color Computer and it was pretty traumatic to see how about 10 lines of code on the happy path got bulked up to 50 lines of code that had error handling weaved all around it and through it. When I saw Java in '95 I was so delighted [1] to see a default unhappy path which could be modified with catch {} and fortified with finally {}.
It's cool to think Exceptions aren't cool but the only justification I see for that is that it can be a hassle to populate stack traces for debugging and yeah, back in the 1990s, Exceptions were one of the many things in the C++ spec that didn't actually work. Sure there are difficult problems with error handling such as errors don't respect your ideas of encapsulation [2] but those are rarely addressed by languages and frameworks even though they could be
putting in ? or Optional and Either though are just moving the deck chairs on the Titanic around.
[1] I know I'm weird. I squee when things are orderly, more people seem to squee when they see that Docker lets them run 5 versions of libc and 7 versions of Java and 15 versions of some library.
[2] Are places where the "desert of the real" intrudes on "the way things are spozed to be"
C3 error handling is fairly novel though. It tries to find a sweet spot between composability, explicitness and C compatibility.
The try-catch has nice composability:
try {
int x = foo_may_fail();
int y = bar_may_fail(x);
} catch (... ) {
...
}
Regular Result types need to use flatmap for this, and of course error codes or multiple returns also struggle with this. With C3:
int? x = foo_may_fail();
int? y = bar_may_fail(x);
if (catch err = y) {
...
return;
}
// y is implicitly unwrapped to "int" here
This is not to say it would satisfy you. But just to illustrate that it's a novel approach that goes beyond Optional and Either and has a lot in common with try-catch.
I honestly still don't know what `with` does in python. Without looking it up: Since I don't use python all that often, my best guess is that it calls some magic dunder function? I get that "primitives" like +, - aren't actually and ALSO call dunders, but there's a bit of "ssh don't tell me that and let me pretend" in the python ethos, and writing your own dunder function for anything that isn't number-ish is probably a huge code smell, and probably a potential footgun even if it is numberish. which is why `with` always felt weird to me.
Interviews:
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC8VDRJqXfc
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rS8MVZH-vA
Here is a series doing various tasks in C3:
- https://ebn.codeberg.page/programming/c3/c3-file-io/
Some projects:
- Gameboy emulator https://github.com/OdnetninI/Gameboy-Emulator/
- RISCV Bare metal Hello World: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iAJxx6Ok4E
- "Depths of Daemonheim" roguelike https://github.com/TechnicalFowl/7DRL-2025
Tsoding's "first impression" of C3 stream:
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzw1m7PweXs
1. You want almost all pointer parameters non null.
2. Non-null variables is very hard to fit in a language without constructors.
Approaches to avoid constructors/destructors such as ZII play very poorly with ref values as well. What you end up with is some period of time where a value is quasi valid - since non-null types need to be assigned and it's in a broken state before it's initially assigned.
It's certainly possible to create generic "type safe" non-null types in C3, but they are not baked into the language.
I don't see that as a problem; don't separate declaration from assignment and it will never be unassigned. Then a ZII non-null pointer is always a compile-time error.
The entire rest of the language is built on pass-by-value using stack values and stack-managed hidden unique pointers. You basically never actually need to use a ref or a pointer unless you're building an interface to a C or C++ library. I having written a 40k line production application with no reference or pointer types anywhere. Almost any case you'd need is covered by simply passing a compound type or dynamic container as a mutable value, where it's impossible to perform any kind of pointer or reference semantics on it. The lifetime is already managed, so semantically it's just a value.
But having them be inside comments is just weird.
But one things for sure ... there's just not a lot of sample Zig code out there. Granted its simpler than Rust, but your average AI tool doesn't get how to write idiomatic Zig. Whereas most AI tools seem to get Rust code okay. Maybe idiomatic Zig just isn't a thing yet. Or maybe idiomatic Zig is just like idiomatic C ... in the eye of the beholder.
https://c3-lang.org/faq/compare-languages/
One would argue that the best C/C++ alternative/evolution language to use would be D. D also has its own cross-platform GUI library and an IDE.
I wonder for which reasons D doesn't have a large base adoption.
1. It is so big.
2. It still largely depends on GC (less important actually)
It keeps adding features, but adding features isn't what makes a language worth using. In fact, that's one of the least attractive things about C++ as well.
So my guess:
1. It betted wrong on GC trying to compete with C++.
2. After failing to get traction, kept adding features to it – which felt a bit like there was some feature that would finally be the killer feature of the language.
3. Not understanding that the added features actually made it less attractive.
4. C++ then left the GC track completely and became a more low level alternative to, at which point D ended up in a weird position: neither high level enough to feel like a high level alternative, nor low level enough to compete with C++.
5. Finally: the fact that it's been around for so long and never taking off makes it even harder for it to take off because it's seen as a has-been.
Maybe Walter Bright should create a curated version of D with only the best features. But given how long it takes to create a language and a mature stdlib, that's WAY easier said than done.
[1]: Specifically: "The Software is copyrighted and comes with a single user license, and may not be redistributed. If you wish to obtain a redistribution license, please contact Digital Mars."
Even Andrei Alexandrescu eventually refocused on C++, and is contributing to some of the C++26 reflection papers.
Many people consider that an anti-feature.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22353532
[1] https://harelang.org/
And yet out all these newer C-like languages, it looks like Hare probably takes the crown for simplicity. Among other things, Hare uses QBE[1] as a backend compiler, which is about 10% the complexity of LLVM.
[1] https://c9x.me/compile/
https://ziglang.org/
Would be nice to have a list of these and comparisons
defer is the kind of thing I would mock up in a hurry in my code if a language or framework lacked the proper facilities, but I think you are better served with the with statement in Python or automated resource management in Java.
Similarly I think people should get over Optional and Either and all of that, my experience is that it is a lot of work to use those tools properly. My first experience with C was circa 1985 when I was porting a terminal emulator for CP/M from Byte magazine to OS-9 on the TRS-80 Color Computer and it was pretty traumatic to see how about 10 lines of code on the happy path got bulked up to 50 lines of code that had error handling weaved all around it and through it. When I saw Java in '95 I was so delighted [1] to see a default unhappy path which could be modified with catch {} and fortified with finally {}.
It's cool to think Exceptions aren't cool but the only justification I see for that is that it can be a hassle to populate stack traces for debugging and yeah, back in the 1990s, Exceptions were one of the many things in the C++ spec that didn't actually work. Sure there are difficult problems with error handling such as errors don't respect your ideas of encapsulation [2] but those are rarely addressed by languages and frameworks even though they could be
https://gen5.info/q/2008/08/27/what-do-you-do-when-youve-cau...
putting in ? or Optional and Either though are just moving the deck chairs on the Titanic around.
[1] I know I'm weird. I squee when things are orderly, more people seem to squee when they see that Docker lets them run 5 versions of libc and 7 versions of Java and 15 versions of some library.
[2] Are places where the "desert of the real" intrudes on "the way things are spozed to be"
The try-catch has nice composability:
Regular Result types need to use flatmap for this, and of course error codes or multiple returns also struggle with this. With C3: This is not to say it would satisfy you. But just to illustrate that it's a novel approach that goes beyond Optional and Either and has a lot in common with try-catch.