I don’t think there is clinical level evidence for it, but there’s this thing called Trauma Releasing Exercise which apparently some people swear by. The idea is that you do extremely taxing, high neuromuscular-recruitment static holds etc - til the point of total muscle control loss that turns into widespread trembling. I would speculate that if a big part of feeling bad is getting stuck in a state where tension becomes a problematic passive default state that is hard to get out of, that a short, hard ‘nudge’ in the form of overwhelming exertion might be enough to ‘reset’. All speculation until proven though.
What’s interesting about the origins of the technique is that the guy thought of the possibility that adults learn to suppress visible trauma reactions - uncontrolled shaking, etc - whereas children and animals wouldn’t, and for whatever reason they would also be able to return to normal more quickly. He wondered if maybe that there was a tangible benefit to the shaking itself, in that it could help perturb out of the traumatized state itself.
> I don’t think there is clinical level evidence for it
Even if it's 100% placebo, if it's not harmful, and it works for a person, then it works. But, determining if it's not harmful should be a priority. I found this person saying it made their life worse, for example: https://www.reddit.com/r/CPTSD_NSCommunity/comments/ungaew/t...
I think you are correct. The strangest things I have learned about personality disorder is that diagnosis applies for as long as the disordered behavior exists.
If the disordered person's behavior adapts to "social norms" the diagnosis no longer applies.
The holds are not "extremely" taxing, I would say. The tremors can be induced through a simple 7 step sequence of holds like wall sits or calf raises. There are walkthroughs on YouTube.
On the TRE subreddit [0], people report being able to tremor at will once they have enough experience with the technique.
Not trying to be pedantic, just clarifying that it is very accessible! I've personally been experimenting with it and find it to be helpful.
Wow, this makes a lot of sense. Nothing like a super intense workout to relieve stress. I need a short one every night after a long day. Feels like it erases all the crap I went through during the day.
I think we're way early to have clinical evidence for a lot of vagal nerve theory that is approachable by anyone outside research fields, but I've had my eyes opened to how much is connected to vagal nerve stimulation (VNS).
For example, basically deep belly breathing reduces stress supposedly through VNS: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6189422/. Yoga, yes, but also even popular and known in some military and police cultures where I've seen it labeled "tactical breathing" as a proven way to lower stress responses like heart rates on command. There seems to be growing evidence around some of these responses being real and reproducible.
FWIW, I've personally observed this working in my family with a licensed therapist as a family member was able to develop and rely on belly breathing to interrupt the onset of panic attacks. There's a lot of talk - if not reproducible science yet - about the possibilities of positively outcomes through so much connected to the vagal nerve.
At something more of a stretch, the same pro-VNS therapist posited to me that even swallowing is a way to engage in VNS, and thus might have a connection to eating disorders. Sure enough, maybe there is emerging evidence: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8027699/
Emerging therapies seem to always get a sideways glance from the medical industry which loves its double-blind derived protocols, so I've started to be more receptive to being part of the vanguard in experimentation when I or someone I love is acutely suffering and it doesn't have a known protocol to alleviate it. An example of that reluctance in PTSD, of course, is the controversial psychedelic therapies: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38284341/. Sometimes these treatments just need time, and if they're reproducible, they grow in popularity.
> He wondered if maybe that there was a tangible benefit to the shaking itself, in that it could help perturb out of the traumatized state itself.
As someone with a trauma background who never learned to suppress this shaking, I am very skeptical of that idea. I'm middle aged by now and still have severe social anxiety problems in certain moments. My body will still shake when this process gets triggered off.
In the last few years I've definitely learned I get some sort of "release" from practicing/holding handstands and other hand/arm-balancing moves and, later, (less so, but with less weird looks from people) from yoga balances (tree, warrior 3, eagle, [revolved] half moon, dancer).
Not surprised, but the headline is pretty terrible. This is a very small, early stage experiment with promising results. The declarative statement-of-fact in the headline is just irresponsible clickbait. That said, the results are promising.
I’m curious about those neck brace style “vagus nerve stimulators” you see on the internet. Anyone have experience with them? Are they legit or snake oil?
Do these work the same as the professional/medical ones? A friend of mine had one during a study, and she claimed it worked by electrostimulation (small electric shocks), not ultrasonic waves?
She wanted to buy one of those devices because they really helped her but the cost was upwards of 1500€, this would probably be within range for her, assuming it works the same way?
I'm skeptical of these devices that say they are safe based on CE or FCC testing. (zenbud says it has been CE tested). That's consumer product testing, not health-device testing; I would like to see some evidence that long-term use of a nerve stimulation device causes no long term damage. I don't believe that CE or FCC tests show that. It's disingenuous to have a press release saying "Yay! We passed CE testing!" as if that was like FDA approval.
FWIW the EU also has EUDAMED registry for producers, distributors and importers of medical devices and there are additional regulations beyond CE under the MDR directive.
I don't see "ZenBud" or "NeurGear" in the EUDAMED database.
An ultrasonic device delivering energy to human tissue would be a class 2a or 2b active medical device under MDR.
EMDR by someone well-trained and experienced in doing that specifically for PTSD is something I’m more familiar with as a treatment. I think the trick with these treatments is that you need a good therapist with past experience helping people get through it. PTSD is not something you want to mess with if you don’t know what you’re doing as triggering could be dangerous.
Readit News
What’s interesting about the origins of the technique is that the guy thought of the possibility that adults learn to suppress visible trauma reactions - uncontrolled shaking, etc - whereas children and animals wouldn’t, and for whatever reason they would also be able to return to normal more quickly. He wondered if maybe that there was a tangible benefit to the shaking itself, in that it could help perturb out of the traumatized state itself.
Even if it's 100% placebo, if it's not harmful, and it works for a person, then it works. But, determining if it's not harmful should be a priority. I found this person saying it made their life worse, for example: https://www.reddit.com/r/CPTSD_NSCommunity/comments/ungaew/t...
If the disordered person's behavior adapts to "social norms" the diagnosis no longer applies.
On the TRE subreddit [0], people report being able to tremor at will once they have enough experience with the technique.
Not trying to be pedantic, just clarifying that it is very accessible! I've personally been experimenting with it and find it to be helpful.
[0] https://www.reddit.com/r/longtermTRE/
For example, basically deep belly breathing reduces stress supposedly through VNS: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6189422/. Yoga, yes, but also even popular and known in some military and police cultures where I've seen it labeled "tactical breathing" as a proven way to lower stress responses like heart rates on command. There seems to be growing evidence around some of these responses being real and reproducible.
FWIW, I've personally observed this working in my family with a licensed therapist as a family member was able to develop and rely on belly breathing to interrupt the onset of panic attacks. There's a lot of talk - if not reproducible science yet - about the possibilities of positively outcomes through so much connected to the vagal nerve.
At something more of a stretch, the same pro-VNS therapist posited to me that even swallowing is a way to engage in VNS, and thus might have a connection to eating disorders. Sure enough, maybe there is emerging evidence: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8027699/
Emerging therapies seem to always get a sideways glance from the medical industry which loves its double-blind derived protocols, so I've started to be more receptive to being part of the vanguard in experimentation when I or someone I love is acutely suffering and it doesn't have a known protocol to alleviate it. An example of that reluctance in PTSD, of course, is the controversial psychedelic therapies: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38284341/. Sometimes these treatments just need time, and if they're reproducible, they grow in popularity.
As someone with a trauma background who never learned to suppress this shaking, I am very skeptical of that idea. I'm middle aged by now and still have severe social anxiety problems in certain moments. My body will still shake when this process gets triggered off.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK562942/
The results are very promising, but it's sure taking its time getting approved.
Maybe you can tell him that and also tell him that I am quite interested in the device to check if it can reduce my heart palpitations!
She wanted to buy one of those devices because they really helped her but the cost was upwards of 1500€, this would probably be within range for her, assuming it works the same way?
Bio and neurofeedback devices are going to be an interesting space the next 10 years.
I don't see "ZenBud" or "NeurGear" in the EUDAMED database.
An ultrasonic device delivering energy to human tissue would be a class 2a or 2b active medical device under MDR.