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ilyagr · 8 months ago
It's a clever format, especially if the focus is on machines generating it and humans or machines reading it. It might even work for humans occasionally making minor edits without having to load the file in the spreadsheet.

I think it can encode anything except for something matching the regex `(\t+\|)+` at the end of cells (*Update:* Maybe `\n?(\t+\|)+`, but that doesn't change my point much) including newlines and even newlines followed by `\` (with the newline extension, of course).

For a cell containing `cell<newline>\`, you'd have:

    |cell<tab>|
    \\<tab   >|
(where `<tab >` represents a single tab character regardless of the number of spaces)

Moreover, if you really needed it, you could add another extension to specify tabs or pipes at the end of cells. For a POC, two cells with contents `a<tab>|` and `b<tab>|` could be represented as:

    |a<tab  ><tab>|b
    ~tab pipe<tab>|tab pipe
(with literal words "tab" and "pipe"). Something nicer might also be possible.

*Update:* Though, if the focus is on humans reading it, it might also make sense to allow a single row of the table to wrap and span multiple lines in the file, perhaps as another extension.

ctenb · 8 months ago
For multiline cell contents, there is rule 7, the multi line extension. Newlines are not allowed in cells otherwise, because of rule 2, it's a line based format.

I personally use it to write tabular data manually, used to define our datamodel. Because this format is editor agnostic, colleagues can easily read and edit as well. So in my case it's focus on human read/write and machine read.

aidenn0 · 8 months ago
If only ASCII had a field separator character, then we could just use that instead.
1vuio0pswjnm7 · 8 months ago
Now sure about "we" but I have used these for years in personal projects for own purposes.

          Dec      Octal  Hex   Binary

          028      034    01C   00011100       FS    (File Separator)
          029      035    01D   00011101       GS    (Group Separator)
          030      036    01E   00011110       RS    (Request to Send)(Record Separator)
          031      037    01F   00011111       US    (Unit Separator)

mbirth · 8 months ago
Also, news transmissions from agencies to newspapers or TV stations used (maybe still use in some places) a format called IPTC 7901 which also makes use of the SOH, SOT, EOT and EOH codes:

https://www.iptc.org/std/IPTC7901/1.0/specification/7901V5.p...

This stems from them coming via a serial wire (which is why news updates are also called “wires” in that context) to a TTY.

(Nowadays, you’d have a server receiving everything over the Internet and spitting it out in this format via a serial port or Telnet connection if needed.)

According to Wikipedia, fancier news messages are possible using some more codes, but I’ve never seen them in the wild in recent years:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPTC_7901#C0_control_codes

ctenb · 8 months ago
What software did you use to write that, and how did other dev tools behave with these characters? Just curious
karmakaze · 8 months ago
Is there a text format like TSV/CSV that can represent nested/repeating sub-structures?

We have YAML but it's too complex. JSON is rather verbose with all the repeated keys and quoting, XML even moreso. I'd also like to see a 'schema tree' corresponding to a header row in TSV/CSV. I'd even be fine with a binary format with standard decoding to see the plain-text contents. Something for XML like what MessagePack does for JSON would work, since we already have schema specifications.

culi · 8 months ago
Well there's JSONL which is used heavily in scientific programs (especially in biology)

But CSV represented as JSON is usually accomplished like so:

  {
    "headers": ["name", "habitat", "food"],
    "data": [
      ["Acorn Woodpecker", "forest", "grain"],
      ["American Goldfinch", "grassland", "grain"],
      ["Anhinga", "wetland", "fish"],
      ["Australian Reed Warbler", "wetland", "grub"],
      ["Black Vulture", "forest", null]
    ]
  }

gglitch · 8 months ago
S-expressions?
dreamcompiler · 8 months ago
Greenspun's Tenth Corollary:

Every textual data format that is not originally S-expressions eventually devolves into an informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of S-expressions.

TheTaytay · 8 months ago
I have been using TSV a LOT lately for batch inputs and outputs for LLMs. Imagine categorizing 100 items. Give it a 100 row tsv with an empty category column, and have it emit a 100 row tsv with the category column filled in.

It has some nice properties: 1) it’s many fewer tokens than JSON. 2) it’s easier to edit prompts and examples in something like Google sheets, where the default format of a copied group of cells is in TSV. 3) have I mentioned how many fewer tokens it is? It’s faster, cheaper, and less brittle than a format that requires the redefinition of every column name for every row.

Obviously this breaks down for nested object hierarchies or other data that is not easily represented as a 2d table, but otherwise we’ve been quite happy. I think this format solves some other things I’ve wanted, including header comments, inline comments, better alignment, and markdown support.

Rhapso · 8 months ago
The poor delimiter special characters in the ascii table never get any love.
ctenb · 8 months ago
Yeah :) Though I can think of two reasons why: it's not typable for most people on a keyboard, and most programs are not designed to deal with it, or render it properly in an aligned way, like tab characters.
Hackbraten · 8 months ago
Good on you to leverage EditorConfig settings. Almost every modern IDE or editor supports it either out of the box or with a plug-in.
DrillShopper · 8 months ago
Or we could use the actual characters for this purpose - the FS (file separator), GS (group separator), RS (record separator), and US (unit separator).

ASCII (and through it, Unicode) has these values specifically for this purpose.

ilyagr · 8 months ago
I don't think popularizing these ASCII characters would solve the problem in its entirety.

If RS and US were in common use, there would be a need to have a visible representation for them in the terminal, and a way to enter RS on the keyboard. Pretty soon, strings that contain RS would become much more common in the wild.

Then, one day somebody would need to store one of those strings in a table, and there would be no way to do so without escaping.

I do think that having RS display in the terminal (like a newline followed by some graphic?) and using it would be an improvement over TSV's use of newline for this purpose, but considering that it's not a perfect solution, I can understand why people are not overly motivated to make this happen. The time for this may have been 40+ years ago when a standard for how to display or type it would be feasible to agree upon.

eviks · 8 months ago
> there would be a need to have a visible representation for them in the terminal, and a way to enter RS on the keyboard.

Both already possible, they have official symbols representing them

> Then, one day somebody would need to store one of those strings in a table, and there would be no way to do so without escaping.

Why? But also, yes, escaping also exists, just like in the alternative formats

EvanAnderson · 8 months ago
I did an ETL project for an ERP system that used these separators years ago. It was ridiculously easy because I didn't have to worry about escaping. Parsing was an easy state machine.

Notepad++ handles the display and entry of these characters fairly easily. I think they're nowhere as unergonomic as people say they are.

addoo · 8 months ago
I’m pretty sure part of the intent is that it should be easy to write (type) in this format. Separator characters are not that. Depending on the editor, they’re not especially readable either.
helix278 · 8 months ago
I like that there is plenty of room for comments, and the multiline extension is also cool. The backslash almost looks like what I would write on paper if I wanted to sneak something into the previous line :)
ctenb · 8 months ago
Thanks :)