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Posted by u/throwaway778 4 months ago
Ask HN: My CEO wants to go hard on AI. What do I do?
I'm the lead software engineer at a company building a B2B hardware/software product in the US. Great team, great technology, great PMF and good progress on revenue targets. There are lots of opportunities for how to develop the product further. It's been an extremely hard scale-up but we are finally starting to see it pay off.

I'm struggling with the CEO being increasingly focussed on investing heavily in AI. I'm not opposed to using this tech at all – it's amazing, and we incorporate a variety of different ML models across our stack where they are useful. But this strategy has evolved to the point where we are limiting resource on key teams aligned with core business to invest in an AI team.

The argument seems to be that they've realized the only way to achieve the next round of funding is to be "AI-first". There is no product roadmap for what this looks like, or what features might be involved, or why we'd want to do it from a product point of view. Instead the reason is that this is the only way to attract a big series C round.

I'm not well-informed enough to know if this is the correct approach to scaling. Instead of working on useful, in-demand product features, it feels like we're spending a lot of time looking at a distant future that we'll struggle to reach if we take our eye off of the ball. Is this normal? Are other organizations going through the same struggle? For the first time in five years I feel completely out of my depth.

codingdave · 4 months ago
From what I've seen, anyone giving you definitive answers is blowing smoke. I've seen teams go for AI, do it well, and succeed. I've also seen teams go for AI, f it up, and all get fired as the company shuts down.

The question is whether the key value of your product can benefit from the strengths of AI? If not, don't go there. If so, you then need to determine if your team can actually deliver an AI-driven vision that enhances the existing value prop. Again, if not, don't go there. If so, do it.

But from your description, your CEO is not asking those questions - they are asking, "How do we get more funding?" Which tells me that your CEO doesn't give a crap about building a product, they are just trying to make money and get some nice bullet points on their resume about the size of a company they led.

That puts you in the position of choosing whether you want to go on a VC-driven startup ride just to have the experience, or whether you want a product-driven role. People have their reasons for both directions, but if you want a product-driven role, you are out of alignment with your CEO and probably shouldn't work for them.

didgetmaster · 4 months ago
There are too many stories out there of highly successful people who got that way by going 'all in' on some rising technology.

This causes too many company executives to think 'if we go all in on [latest trend] then the same thing will happen to us'. Very little thought is given to whether the latest thing is a good fit for what you are building.

When it is a good fit, things can really work to your advantage. When it is not, it can just be a monkey on your back.

josh2600 · 4 months ago
I came here to write this exact response.

Folks work in mission driven organizations. In organizations that are optimizing for dollars you see quality fall by the wayside.

Mission driven organizations that understand the levers of capital are the most enjoyable workplaces of my career.

You want a CEO who is customer obsessed, not a CEO who is maximizing for dollars in the bank at all costs.

It has to be mission first for a startup to be great, really for any critical endeavor.

babyent · 4 months ago
Maybe it’s a PE backed company
scarface_74 · 4 months ago
Every for profit organization is optimizing for dollars, the next round of funding or to be an acquisition target. “Customer obsession” only goes as far as getting enough customers to be an attractive acquisition or another exit.
owebmaster · 4 months ago
To sum up what you said, some startups succeeded creating products and others did not, just like before LLMs. The majority of the failed ones are led by clueless CEOs trying to join the hype
sofixa · 4 months ago
> I've seen teams go for AI, do it well, and succeed.

Succeed based on what criteria? I struggle to think of a single product with "AI" that I'd call successful (excluding the already existing and established niches of recommendation algorithms and computer vision which have been rebranded AI and maybe are what you're referring to).

yencabulator · 4 months ago
I'd guess "succeed" here == "VC gave them money".
kadushka · 4 months ago
You wouldn’t call ChatGPT a successful product?
pragmatic · 4 months ago
"I've seen teams go for AI, do it well, and succeed"

Can you give any hints as far as industry or product?

duxup · 4 months ago
Work with them on a product roadmap?

I've seen folks wanting big changes and we sit down and draw things up and surprisingly it looks like the old roadmap. Everyone is happy and I don't say anything about the similarities, and most importantly we're on the same page ;)

Sometimes when leadership asks for big changes, even when they say big changes, you might find if you get into the details it's not THAT big a change.

In the meantime don't let your mind run too wild assuming and worrying about what they might be asking for. I do that too, it's a developer thing I think, we start considering possibilities or even misused terminology and we get into a loop ;)

ivanmontillam · 4 months ago
This is great advice.

> I've seen folks wanting big changes and we sit down and draw things up and surprisingly it looks like the old roadmap.

I've found myself doing this also. It also helps to reason through new nuances found on the same evidence, because we're more wise looking at the same data in the future, or in this case, in the present (looking from the past).

somesortofthing · 4 months ago
Draw up the product roadmap such that you can claim maximum AI-ness while including as little of it as possible in the actual product. Sounds like the CEO doesn't have any technical objections to not using AI, he just wants the ability to raise on AI branding.

Include as much non-AI work as you can in the AI teams' projects, pitch an "AI efficiency initiative" that minimizes new spend on AI with the justification of other teams picking up the slack, talk up whatever ML you're already doing, etc.

RangerScience · 4 months ago
“Made in America” == “Assembled in America out of offshore parts”, only with AI?

(Also, huh - I wonder if that’s actually directly doable; “assembled by AI out of programmed outputs”?)

xg15 · 4 months ago
> AI efficiency initiative

Don't forget to name it after a dog, too.

ahussain · 4 months ago
It seems like it's worth taking some time to steel-man the AI argument, even if your CEO hasn't made it very well.

E.g. If you don't work on AI now, and AI models keep improving, how likely is it that a competitor who integrates AI well will eat your lunch? If it's >50%, it seems worth it to shift some focus to AI regardless of the series C round.

This post from a few days ago has some great tips on how to integrate AI _well_: https://koomen.dev/essays/horseless-carriages/

collingreen · 4 months ago
This approach looks to me like a classic mistake of assuming all your potential paying users both are and want to be (these are different things!) power users. Similarly it might be suffering from the problem of living on the cutting edge and assuming everyone else is too.

I like the post and what it goes over. I agree with huge swaths of it, especially the misuse of ai tools right now. I don't agree that anyone doing it that way (like the gmail team called out over and over here) is either stupid or naive. I don't agree every consumer tool should become an agent building playground. I don't agree building said playgrounds are easy (I think it's much much harder to design a good agent building version of a product than a good product). I don't agree consumers want everything they use to work this way. I also think it ignores the very real problem of ai bullshitting and the handcuffs that puts on people using it for mission critical things like paying the mortgage.

Ironically I think this post falls into its own trap of not thinking about the next step. Yeah a really good email agent product as demod sounds great in a world where nothing works this way yet. However, a world where every product I use has to be re-engineered from scratch, with various unknown and non-customizable (and enshittifying) LLMs under it, with various training and fine tuning, unknown access to data, and no interop is the wood-frame horseless carriage the author is mocking. That would be a terrible situation worse than the current one.

Rethinking for a world of ai agents, it would be better if products empowered consumer agents instead of tried to supplant them. In THAT world products stay simple and just expose a bunch of tools and patterns that each consumer's custom agents can effectively use. Making that work well for your own product is actually viable AND helpful AND doesn't force your users to change their behavior if they don't want to. Anything I, the consumer, do to handle or prompt my own agent pays off across my entire ecosystem and investment can be focused on the right things by the right people (ie gmail should make email tools not agent tools).

ElevenLathe · 4 months ago
Unless you own the business, you work for your investors.

If investors only want AI, then you will either be forced to do that (whatever it means), do something else but make it look to them like AI, convince them they're wrong, or quit.

Things are a little more nuanced if your existing investors side with you but all new investors are AI-driven. Then you don't have to quit, but you do have to run the business without new outside capital. This may or may not be possible. If not, you still have to quit.

danjl · 4 months ago
At a smart business, you work for your customers. If you're at a company that works for your investors, you're going to have this problem over and over again. In fact, you might as well give up on the idea of planning and decision making based on what would be best for the product and your customers.
lenerdenator · 4 months ago
> At a smart business, you work for your customers.

Well, then you're bound to the amount of money customers can give you.

It's usually less than a VC partner with a god complex can give you.

ElevenLathe · 4 months ago
I agree, having a boss sucks. Unfortunately raising investment from other people is not a way to escape it.

Note that starting a business with your own capital is not a way to escape it either, since you still have to answer to customers.

llmguy · 4 months ago
The ceo likely has more voting shares alone. The issue for a cashflow negative business is attracting new money.
danjl · 4 months ago
It is exceedingly rare that voting shares play a role in any of these decisions. When you need cash to pay salaries, the decision lies in the hand of the stakeholder with the cash, not the shares.
conartist6 · 4 months ago
I don't know what industry your company is in, but godspeed to your CEO on tanking your company with AI bullshit so that this stupid f**ing bubble pops and everyone can go back to thinking carefully using their brain instead of working on better serving Roko's Basilisk.

Couldn't be more excited for this kind of short-sighted, AI-instead-of-people thinking to become shameful. How many people need to aim the gun at their foot and pull the trigger before they're not bragging as they do it?

franktankbank · 4 months ago
Hmm, the AI integrations don't seem to be panning out, I'm guessing its the wrong engineering team... lets try offshore!
senectus1 · 4 months ago
>AI bullshit so that this stupid f*ing bubble pops and everyone can go back to thinking carefully

Its not going away. Its an elevator of low ability.

those with low skills or ability can make great use to elevate their skills and abilities.

Those with high skills and abilitities will not use it for much, but will notice that the skill gap between themselves and those with lower skills will get smaller, faster and with little effort. They're unlikely to match them, but it will level the playing field very quickly and with little effort exerted.

paulcole · 4 months ago
> AI bullshit so that this stupid f*ing bubble pops

I don't understand what you mean by this. Do you think LLMs are going away? Or is that you think AI-related technologies won't continue to improve?

conartist6 · 4 months ago
There can be a bubble of speculation around something that does have real value. Housing for example.

What is driving the market to assign such a huge value to models is that they can sell themselves as the solution to any and every problem, even if they aren't

bigtex · 4 months ago
They will remain but when they have to charge enough profit to cover the cost of generating the responses, how many people will actually pay for it? Last time I saw 97% of OpenAI usage was free customers. No way to force the 3% to pay for their usage.
ffsm8 · 4 months ago
> pops and everyone can go back to thinking carefully using their brain

I am sorry I have to burst your bubble, but that is not going to happen, ever.

This is the new normal now. We have to accept that reality and adjust accordingly. Maybe with new hiring filters or similar. Hopefully these filters won't be just a LLM hallucinating random things, but realistically speaking... Yeah, it's gonna be that, isn't it?

conartist6 · 4 months ago
I'm not disputing that there will be a new normal. It's not that I think things will go back to how they were before, but this level of hype that showers cash on anyone who as much as speaks the words AI is not going to persist.
ironmagma · 4 months ago
> that is not going to happen, ever

This is exactly the sort of thing people start saying before a bubble pops.

wrs · 4 months ago
Bear in mind there is not always a strong relation between "what will improve the product", "what will attract customers", and "what will attract funding". A big part of the CEO job is to manage all of those at once.

As the engineer you need to support all three, while being the voice of realism (internally). But don't get confused when they conflict -- they always conflict to some degree.

supportengineer · 4 months ago
Keep in mind that your company is the product. And the customers are Wall Street.

Your product is not really the product. So the only thing that really matters is how your company is perceived to those who could potentially buy it and give your C-suite an exit.