I did two years of nurse graduation, and one of the discussions that we had in Public Health classes was that Abortion will be done whether you think it is ethical/moral or not. It's time to start treating this from a scientific perspective to avoid the life losses, this procedure done in a clandestine clinic is a high-risk life threat for the Mother.
It's clear, in the Health community, that pregnancy can be avoided with contraceptives and instructing the population (adults and teenagers) on how to deal with this issue.
Not only that, but it's tragic that we have such a good organization, WHO, which does instruct on how to deal with this, and yet we ignore because of beliefs of “pro-life” movements which in the end kill the infant's mother.
The thing is the people who are for abortion bans think if a person gets an abortion and becomes sick from it, they get what they deserve.
So from a scientific perspective, they don't care, all they care about is a fetus being born, not well cared for, not born to a family that wants it, not born healthily, just born. Science has no place in their philosophy.
They can't grasp that miscarriages, which occur for many reasons even in healthy people, have exactly the same emergent medical care needs as abortions. Laws banning abortions usually also interfere with (if not outright block) access to necessary care.
It's a textbook example of how theocracy is wholly incapable of sound public governance.
I’m going to get hate for this, but here’s my perspective.
I used to be pro-choice because I thought the motivation for pro-life was religion, and I thought that had no place in determining what others can do.
Eventually I started to see abortion as something closer to murder. Obviously it’s much more complicated than that, but, to me, I view the fetus as a person, even if they aren’t born yet.
There are absolutely cases where abortion can be justified, e.g. for the health of the mother, or if the mother didn’t make the choice to have sex (for example, rape). In this case I feel like it’s still murder; it’s just a terrible situation overall.
In other cases though, I don’t see why abortion should be assisted. Yes, people will try to terminate in other ways. That sucks, but there’s no reason why we should be helping people murder other people just because they might hurt themselves otherwise.
There are a lot of other arguments (like what if the child is born into a terrible situation) that are relevant but IMO at that point you’re essentially asking who deserves to live.
Definitely open to conversation on this/feel free to link any articles that you think might change my mind.
"The unborn are a convenient group of people to advocate for. They never make demands of you; they are morally uncomplicated, unlike the incarcerated, addicted, or the chronically poor; they don’t resent your condescension or complain that you are not politically correct; unlike widows, they don’t ask you to question patriarchy; unlike orphans, they don’t need money, education, or childcare; unlike aliens, they don’t bring all that racial, cultural, and religious baggage that you dislike; they allow you to feel good about yourself without any work at creating or maintaining relationships; and when they are born, you can forget about them, because they cease to be unborn. You can love the unborn and advocate for them without substantially challenging your own wealth, power, or privilege, without re-imagining social structures, apologizing, or making reparations to anyone. They are, in short, the perfect people to love if you want to claim you love Jesus, but actually dislike people who breathe. Prisoners? Immigrants? The sick? The poor? Widows? Orphans? All the groups that are specifically mentioned in the Bible? They all get thrown under the bus for the unborn."
That is more or less the utilitarian position, there are numerous other reasons to allow it.
But yes, abortions will happen, the mother is the best person to decide here and access to clinics has to be self-evident.
I think the current more severe restrictions aren't even due to people essentially and strictly being against abortion, it is some quite loud abortion proponents arguing that badly, that people reflected on their stances and many folded while lawmakers took the political opportunity to restrict rights again.
> It's clear, in the Health community, that pregnancy can be avoided with contraceptives and instructing the population (adults and teenagers) on how to deal with this issue.
It's not clear to me that the Health community is winning that battle based on abortion rates.
For 2023 Guttmacher estimates 1,037,000 abortions were provided by clinicians in states without total bans [1].
Compare the 2022 CDC leading causes of death [2] which starts Heart disease: 702,880; Cancer: 608,371; ...
That is, if one thinks of abortion as an avoidable disease it's one hell of a disease. And the rates suggest the Health community hasn't solved the root causes by a long shot.
> That is, if one thinks of abortion as an avoidable disease it's one hell of a disease. And the rates suggest the Health community hasn't solved the root causes by a long shot.
It basically halved from 1990 to 2015, and has increased in correlation with prof-life policies like reduced access to education and contraception.
Until being pregnant carries absolutely no financial or social penalties (during or after), people who don't want to be pregnant will try to find ways to end it. Society can either provide safe, legal means, or women will die trying.
You're forgetting about the process. Pregnancy causes significant physiological and psychological changes for many women, sometimes long lasting, and many women simply don't want to go through that process regardless of the "financial or social penalties" as you describe it.
Regardless, I agree: society should always provide safe, legal ways for anyone to get the care they need, no questions asked.
This is a state with no exception for rape or incest, and castle doctrine and stand your ground rights to self defense.
Forcing a raped woman to carry to term and parent for life exceeds the sentencing guidelines. When the state abuses the citizen beyond the sentencing guidelines, the citizen has the right to self defense using at least equal force.
That is, don't persons denied abortions by the state have the right to trap their abusers into parenting a reminder of their trauma for life, in self defense?
"Just put your kid up for adoption, to please God."
In 2024, there were 391,098 kids in foster care hoping to be adopted or age out of the system. There are demographic breakdown by race(s) and preference(s).
**
It would not please a benevolent God to trap rape victims with a reminder of their trauma for life!
It would not please a benevolent God to force children into a life of resentment and neglect!
Is there a benevolent God? Not in law, no.
Should the court admit that:
God designed that humans would be the genetically disadvantaged incestuous products of Adam and his daughter Eve and their children?
Genesis (Bible Chapter 1): Adam and Eve begat Cain and Abel, and then they violently fought and Cain slew Abel, but the third child was fine (*).
Why must the church track genetic relations, in God's design? Isn't it criminally abusive to teach kids in public school that we're all the products of incest, which survived after God's drowning genocidal wrath toward God's own creations?
Is it morally acceptable for God to drown everyone on Earth to fix God's design and keep testing free will?
If God was qualified to be teaching about medical PPD, God should have instructed humans to wash their hands before delivering babies* instead of instructing them to spread Kaneh Bosm (Holy Anointing Oil) all over the tabernacle or manger.)
In 1865-1867 AD/CE,
Joseph Lister discovered that sanitizing surgical instruments with carbolic acid - an antiseptic to prevent sepsis - reduced the number of post-surgical infections, amputations, and deaths.
Ironically, the Old Testament (which Christians consider the word of their God) only mentions abortion once, and it's a description of how to perform one with a weird magic spell if a woman is unfaithful to her husband (Numbers 5:11-31).
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that abortion is a sin, or even of any concern to God at all. Although if one takes the Bible seriously, one has to accept that God is pro slavery and made women inferior to men.
Which is why the Bible shouldn't be taken seriously. It has a few good moral precepts which can be found anywhere and a lot of bullshit that the Western world has been dragged down by for millennia.
Here's my post from April 2023 flagged as "misinformation" where I state exactly the premise shown to be true by this study, followed by repeated badgering and threats that I was "spreading misinformation" breaking site rules:
Just saw a TikTok post from a woman with an ectopic pregnancy being refused care by the Conway Medical Center (Conway, SC, near Myrtle Beach). Next day the post had been removed, with comments on other posts seeming to confirm that she had taken it down under legal threat from the hospital.
Readit News
It's clear, in the Health community, that pregnancy can be avoided with contraceptives and instructing the population (adults and teenagers) on how to deal with this issue.
Not only that, but it's tragic that we have such a good organization, WHO, which does instruct on how to deal with this, and yet we ignore because of beliefs of “pro-life” movements which in the end kill the infant's mother.
So from a scientific perspective, they don't care, all they care about is a fetus being born, not well cared for, not born to a family that wants it, not born healthily, just born. Science has no place in their philosophy.
It's a textbook example of how theocracy is wholly incapable of sound public governance.
I used to be pro-choice because I thought the motivation for pro-life was religion, and I thought that had no place in determining what others can do.
Eventually I started to see abortion as something closer to murder. Obviously it’s much more complicated than that, but, to me, I view the fetus as a person, even if they aren’t born yet.
There are absolutely cases where abortion can be justified, e.g. for the health of the mother, or if the mother didn’t make the choice to have sex (for example, rape). In this case I feel like it’s still murder; it’s just a terrible situation overall.
In other cases though, I don’t see why abortion should be assisted. Yes, people will try to terminate in other ways. That sucks, but there’s no reason why we should be helping people murder other people just because they might hurt themselves otherwise.
There are a lot of other arguments (like what if the child is born into a terrible situation) that are relevant but IMO at that point you’re essentially asking who deserves to live.
Definitely open to conversation on this/feel free to link any articles that you think might change my mind.
I hope you don't honestly hold that generalization to be true. I can think of several people who would immediately dismiss that as false, anyways.
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But yes, abortions will happen, the mother is the best person to decide here and access to clinics has to be self-evident.
I think the current more severe restrictions aren't even due to people essentially and strictly being against abortion, it is some quite loud abortion proponents arguing that badly, that people reflected on their stances and many folded while lawmakers took the political opportunity to restrict rights again.
It's not clear to me that the Health community is winning that battle based on abortion rates.
For 2023 Guttmacher estimates 1,037,000 abortions were provided by clinicians in states without total bans [1].
Compare the 2022 CDC leading causes of death [2] which starts Heart disease: 702,880; Cancer: 608,371; ...
That is, if one thinks of abortion as an avoidable disease it's one hell of a disease. And the rates suggest the Health community hasn't solved the root causes by a long shot.
[1] https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/induced-abortion-unite...
[2] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm
It basically halved from 1990 to 2015, and has increased in correlation with prof-life policies like reduced access to education and contraception.
Regardless, I agree: society should always provide safe, legal ways for anyone to get the care they need, no questions asked.
Forcing a raped woman to carry to term and parent for life exceeds the sentencing guidelines. When the state abuses the citizen beyond the sentencing guidelines, the citizen has the right to self defense using at least equal force.
That is, don't persons denied abortions by the state have the right to trap their abusers into parenting a reminder of their trauma for life, in self defense?
"Just put your kid up for adoption, to please God."
In 2024, there were 391,098 kids in foster care hoping to be adopted or age out of the system. There are demographic breakdown by race(s) and preference(s).
**
It would not please a benevolent God to trap rape victims with a reminder of their trauma for life!
It would not please a benevolent God to force children into a life of resentment and neglect!
Is there a benevolent God? Not in law, no.
Should the court admit that:
God designed that humans would be the genetically disadvantaged incestuous products of Adam and his daughter Eve and their children?
Genesis (Bible Chapter 1): Adam and Eve begat Cain and Abel, and then they violently fought and Cain slew Abel, but the third child was fine (*).
Why must the church track genetic relations, in God's design? Isn't it criminally abusive to teach kids in public school that we're all the products of incest, which survived after God's drowning genocidal wrath toward God's own creations?
Is it morally acceptable for God to drown everyone on Earth to fix God's design and keep testing free will?
If God was qualified to be teaching about medical PPD, God should have instructed humans to wash their hands before delivering babies* instead of instructing them to spread Kaneh Bosm (Holy Anointing Oil) all over the tabernacle or manger.)
In 1865-1867 AD/CE, Joseph Lister discovered that sanitizing surgical instruments with carbolic acid - an antiseptic to prevent sepsis - reduced the number of post-surgical infections, amputations, and deaths.
What has law, for childbirth and God?
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that abortion is a sin, or even of any concern to God at all. Although if one takes the Bible seriously, one has to accept that God is pro slavery and made women inferior to men.
Which is why the Bible shouldn't be taken seriously. It has a few good moral precepts which can be found anywhere and a lot of bullshit that the Western world has been dragged down by for millennia.
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https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35461613
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