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Posted by u/djdule 2 years ago
Ask HN: Any legal way against forced software upgrades and feature removal
It was reported here earlier today that Apple forced OS upgrades for some users without asking (https://www.macintouch.com/post/37381/macos-sonoma-forced-installs/).

There is also situation when upgrades remove features. For example 1Password deliberately crippled perfectly fine password sync for users because they wanted to force them to new, cloud (and subscription) based version.

Is there any legal way to fight against this ? I am in EU, but I am interested in other legislative as well

paxys · 2 years ago
The way to fight this has been out there since before most of these companies and products have existed – use FOSS. If you want more convenience and polish then just remember that you are trading it for privacy and autonomy. There is no middle option.
LoganDark · 2 years ago
Calling it "more convenience and polish" is a bit of an understatement. My experience with open-source software is that if it breaks or it's missing a feature and you want your needs to be addressed then you will have to hack on it yourself. While this is great for people who enjoy hacking it's not great once you get bored of it.

I always enjoyed macOS (at least pre-Catalina) because it's Unix but without the requirement to constantly hack on the OS and userland like you have to do with Linux. That means I have all the development tools I appreciate but I can focus on what I actually want to do instead of fixing system-level bugs.

When Catalina came out I stopped updating so I can't speak for how the OS is nowadays.

albert180 · 2 years ago
I've needed 0 Seconds of hacking since using Fedora for 2 years. Linux has evolved in the last 14 Years
Isognoviastoma · 2 years ago
With proprietary software, how many times a producer did fix breakage or add missing feature for you because you bought a licence (subscription)? How fast was it?
appplication · 2 years ago
Was there something specifically negative about Catalina you were avoiding or did you just get tired of OS updates at that point.
donmcronald · 2 years ago
I wish there were legal protections against this kind of thing. Even worse, I’ve had updates break stuff that might never get fixed. For example, I have Roku TVs and a recent update broke CEC.

The updates aren’t for my benefit, because my TVs worked fine from day one. Instead, the updates are to push more and more advertising and recommendations. It’s to the point where my TVs are slow, bloated, half broken trash. They’re definitely not what I bought off the store shelf.

DyslexicAtheist · 2 years ago
if you're a vendor and wish to sell IoT enabled consumer devices in EU 2025 then the Radio Equipment directive and the CRA force you to keep these _things_ updated in the name of security.

And there is nothing that forces you (the vendor) to keep security upgrades separate from features. So in practice you can force upgrades that then cripple features (for monetization) and in the name of cybersec.

:/

drstewart · 2 years ago
>I wish there were legal protections against this kind of thing. Even worse, I’ve had updates break stuff that might never get fixed.

If we just make bugs illegal, there will be no more bugs.

add-sub-mul-div · 2 years ago
Roku is the worst thing to happen to TVs since motion smoothing.

Dead Comment

andy99 · 2 years ago
As others have said, stop using software that has that capability, or at minimum treat all SaaS (broadly defined) as a hostile actor and conduct yourself accordingly. It's miserable, but that's the ecosystem we've created. As long as we continue to incentivize companies by giving them money, they're going to keep treating us this way. It's actually to tech companies' benefit to actively alienate customers that don't want to fit the mold of how they want them to behave so they can maximize unit profitability.

Also, a shout out to Duolingo who did exactly what is described here. I paid for the app and woke up one day to find I was forced to upgrade and when I did the app became something completely different where the previous "game" I was playing was gone. They of course ignored my complaints about it, and their app sucks anyway for learning so in a way I'm glad they broke the cycle. It's still a terrible way to treat customers.

H8crilA · 2 years ago
Sounds like a simple case of antitrust. But antitrust is really a political process, not a legal process. Or perhaps a better way to phrase it is that it is a political process that happens to go through the judiciary branch.
latexr · 2 years ago
> For example 1Password deliberately crippled perfectly fine password sync for users because they wanted to force them to new, cloud (and subscription) based version.

I’m unhappy with 1Password’s direction and I’m no longer a user, but it’s important to note that at least on macOS and iOS they never forced anyone to update to the new versions. I didn’t stop using 1Password 7 when version 8 was relased. It continued to work fine even on Apple Silicon (without the need for Rosetta) and it will probably continue to do so for a good while.

I can see a case against forced software upgrades, but it doesn’t seem right that a company should be unable to remove features. What if something turned out to be insecure, confusing, or detrimental? Should 99.999% of users be forced to deal with a feature they despise because one person wants it?

torstenvl · 2 years ago
This is false. They absolutely did force upgrades by crippling functionality on older versions and license modes. Specifically, at some point accessing 1Password through the share sheet was disabled.
latexr · 2 years ago
Clearly they did not force upgrades, since I didn’t do it. I only stopped using 1Password 7 a few weeks ago, after having moved my last items somewhere else.

Your example doesn’t make sense, the share sheet wasn’t implemented in 1Password 8.

https://1password.community/discussion/122959/where-is-share...

https://1password.community/discussion/129044/share-sheet-ex...

rmorey · 2 years ago
> I clicked the “X” dismiss button. But Apple somehow assumed that that meant “yes, install it immediately” because 20 minutes later I got a “you must restart” notification and when I restarted, the system was running macOS 14.2.1.

That definitely sounds like a bug to me, not a product decision. Real shitty though. Apple definitely better than Microsoft when it comes to shoving updates down your throat, but as others have said, yes the ultimate answer is to use FOSS. For my use, I appreciate regular updates, they rarely cause me trouble, and don’t want to have to be a linux sysadmin for my daily driver anymore. But I understand the desire for crystal clear control. Apple is usually pretty good about this, so this failure really is a stain. I hope they fix it.

olliej · 2 years ago
That’s my assumption - I imagine there’s general “prepare the update” path that gets canceled explicitly by clicking a “no” button and can easily imagine that kind of logic missing close the window or whatever.
gjsman-1000 · 2 years ago
In America, almost certainly not, for a few reasons:

1. Almost every consumer agreement contains an arbitration clause. This means the number of consumers that actually can sue becomes incredibly small.

2. Security updates are real. In which case, let's say a company wants to add or remove a feature you may, or may not, want. If there was such an obligation to support exactly the same feature set, the company would be obliged to bring security patches to every major version of a software platform - which is possibly, technically, impossible. Imagine Apple being forced to provide individual security updates for iOS 15.4, 15.5, 15.6, 16.0, 16.1, 16.2... all the way back to iOS 11 I suppose. Most likely, this actually would slow down innovation. Let's make modern WebKit run on iOS 11 - what could go wrong?

3. Some features may need to be removed in the future due to patent lawsuits (like Apple vs Massimo removing the Blood Oxygen sensor in future models). Other times, the design of a system needs to be changed, or wireless compliance logos need to be updated, or radio strength needs to be reduced (Apple in France lawsuit), or so forth. There's also public interest reasons for updates - for example, if a flaw was found in iOS that allows bypassing anti-theft locks. There's also legitimate corporate interests in the eyes of the law - like fixing a copy protection loophole. There's also features in a platform that have recurring costs and licensing from third parties, that may expire [1]. Then what?

4. As much as we gripe about Apple and 1Password, they are really the exception to the rule right now. The main problem that legislators are concerned about is that most devices don't get updated, particularly cheap IoT devices or Android phones after a few years. Putting new rules on getting updates out is the opposite of the public interest concern at the moment.

[1] Edit for this hypothetical: Imagine that your music player shows cover art. That's almost always provided by a company called Gracenote and it requires a license. Let's say a manufacturer's device, 8 years down the road, has that license expire. Is that reasonable, or does Gracenote need to be paid for, by the manufacturer, forever, for using their API? It's removing a feature "you paid for" if it goes away. You can see how this becomes sticky quickly.

withinboredom · 2 years ago
For (1), I feel like that wouldn’t hold up in court. If everyone were to go to arbitration, they would literally be unable to afford it, so it also sounds like a dumb business move.
ct0 · 2 years ago
You'll have to negotiate the terms of use with the software provider.