Open relationships are nearly impossible to navigate from either side and as someone who has done it on more than one occasion, I very strongly recommend that if you’re considering it, reconsider—hard.
They are often a last ditch effort at offsetting dead bedrooms, relationship problems, or other significant issues and they are often a cause of severe dating stress on you, your primary, and your secondary/tertiary/etc partners.
If you do want to absolutely do it, don’t do it via a mainstream app or don’t do it as a relationship—keep it as a hookup. But, if you insist this is good for you, instead join some sort of tight-knit community that is more open to such alternative relationship styles or you’re going to have a bad time. A really bad time.
In my extensive experience, of those who are open to open/polyamory are either doing it themselves or have serious issues with self-image and/or mental health. Of those who aren’t in these camps, the stress of the relationship dynamics will end up in hurt, pain, and a never-ending conversation about the situation or the lack of separation from the primary.
Again, keep it to hookups or tight-knit pro-open communities and away from those looking for something normal or stable. It’s not fair to anyone involved.
If it’s “working” for you via those mainstream dating communities, you’re either missing/ignoring the issues or you’re in a very tiny minority.
When I first started down this path my first red flag appeared when I started asking poly people how long they'd been poly. The first 30 people I asked over a period of about 4 months, the longest anyone had been poly was 14 months. It wasn't until I got involved in a smaller alt-art community that I found a few old timers with more than 5 years under their belts, and all of them were solo poly (they live alone, unmarried, but date multiple people).
In my experience with the local gay scene, it’s common for stable, long term relationships to be open. Maybe this fits what you said about “tight-knit pro-open communities” but it’s not like we intentionally self-selected to combine poly people together. Maybe it’s some difference in relationship dynamics related to gender expectations.
As a gay, I think that we actually have a lot of self-exceptionalism around the abuse of younger men by poly/open men in legal marriages with their primary. There's a lot of solidified marriages around fucking younger men and having a mortgage with the old same-sex ball and chain. I think it's a sort of normalized abuse we haven't even begun to reckon with.
I realized at one point that the math associated with Brook’s Law—ie the chance of project failure scaling to n(n-1)/2, the number of communications paths between n people who have to cooperate with each other to achieve the result—probably applied to many kinds of open and poly/ethical-non-monogamous relationships as well.
The degree of drama I’ve anecdotally seen them stir up seemed to support my hypothesis. I avoid them now.
50% of marriages end in divorce. I think of that statistic as a probability of failure for a life long monogamous relationship. I don't think there's any argument that can convince me that increasing the number of partners reduces or does not increase the probability at which a relationship between 2 people will end up in heart break and hurt feelings.
Human beings are naturally envious and covetous creatures. Everyone loves to talk about other people's love lives, and maintains strong opinions about how they should be, while paradoxically relating to the fact that love makes fools of us all.
Meanwhile journalists rest more and more on sexual politics to elicit interest in a public who is very tired of what they have to say.
How about we build stuff, and let people worry about their own love lives?
Some apps, like Ok Cupid, have this. Others like Tinder give you the option to set “intention” such as short-term or casual, but that doesn’t necessarily equate to non-monogamy. Apps like Hinge allow you to specify that you’re non-monogamous, but don’t allow you to filter by it.
The apps are, by and large, very aware of these audiences and simultaneously averse to catering to them. Which is odd - the major shift to subscription-based Boosts, Super Likes, etc, is all geared towards keeping people using your dating app. The people most likely to want to come back are either A) those not finding a lasting monogamous relationship, or B) those who are open to finding more than one partner.
As a man, there's enough poly people to notice, but not so much it becomes an inconvenience. Is it way worse for women on these apps? Not a woman so idk what the # of poly guys is on dating apps.
I have good close friends, they are a little younger than me, in their mid 40s - in a poly relationship, perhaps the difference I see in their relationship is it opened up after decades of commitment, raising children and the trust and communication skills that developed with that task.
In them, I see none of the illness, narcissism or duplicity you describe, but also they are not on apps, only their closest friends would know. The live their life and don’t go yelling poly all the time. I expect their quiet unadvertised experience is fairly common
What a sad premise. People who don't want the same thing I want are ruining dating apps for me? I know that calling people entitled is a bit of a meme now but... really?
I mean, it's not just poly people. What about kinksters, single parents, people with disabilities, drug users, bisexuals, poors etc? Why can't everyone on the normal people dating app just be normal like me and want the same normal things that I want?
A lot of uninformed my-partner-never-gets-off-thinking-about-others, all-of-these-are-mentally-ill-people-in-failing-sinking-partnerships and this-is-society-degrading-to-psychopaths-let’s-go-back-to-1920s-marriages. Got some news about granny’s relationships back then and how liberal that time actually was. I’m not in a polyamorous relationship, but if you’re scared or appalled by other people being themselves, I guarantee you have a psychological issue and people you love around you are not opening up to you as much about themselves as you might wish. Life is letting you by.
There is an epidemic of narcissists in society which is not being talked about enough. And when I say "Narcissist," you have to understand it goes WAY BEYOND the idea of "oh, this person is just selfish."
I was BLINDSIDED by running into a woman at work who was:
- Dating a dozen different men
- On every dating app
- Pathologically flirting with new men everywhere she goes
- Flirting with me and co-workers
- Texting / Calling me all the time at odd hours
- Living a lifestyle of traveling all over the place every weekend, maintaining multiple relationships with multiple men at the same time
- Constantly on the hunt for new men
- Meeting and immediately texting broad and deep with new men on the spot
- Deliberately hurting / breaking up with men in a nasty way just to enjoy harming them and gaining power over them
IT WAS WEIRD.
It wasn't until I learned about Covert Narcissism and how it is a really severe psychological condition that I understood what I was seeing.
These are the people who are pretending to be "polygamous" or "dating multiple people." It is NOT NORMAL and NOT HEALTHY and you DO NOT WANT IT AROUND YOU TRUST ME.
Society has become extremely sick, and social media, dating apps have given the sickest people the equivalent of methamphetamines to feed their addiction for relationship "supply" nonstop.
IF you grew up in the prior era, you may not understand JUST HOW BAD AND TOXIC IT HAS GOTTEN. It has FALLEN APART.
Stay away from these people, learn to spot them, they are sneaky and out to harm you ( I was personally harmed by this woman who was playing games with me ).
There needs to be broader awareness of narcissists, how they act and how to spot and avoid them. They are a societal cancer and the cancer is spreading.
> I was personally harmed by this woman who was playing games with me
Let's assume you were a willing participant. I don't know your situation, how it developed, what kind of tricks they used to make you a consenting person, but, if you think deeply and objectively, you were.
Looking back on the bad relationships I had, with the wisdom, reflections and experience that age and life give us, I realize that I could have said no, taken a different path, lived a different life. Sure, they were bad, and I was bad with them and with others, but there was no chain holding me there, except the one I myself was willing to fasten around my ankle, perhaps because I was lonely, or scared, or immature. Or because sex was amazing, and they were a great cook, so sweet when they wanted to be.
Bad relationships should make us reflect on the faults of others, but especially on our own shortcomings. At least, that is I see them today, and my life got much better because of it.
I wouldnt have believed what happened to me until it happened.
If you are not familiar with narcissistic abuse, they approach pretending to be someone they are not. They pretend to be your mirror, study you, use your language, mirror you.
Then they begin abusing you, it triggers something called a "Trauma Bond."
I had never experienced or even heard of this before. I could not stop thinking about her.
It is extremely addictive and sinister. The only solution was to get away to break the trauma bond.
These are things you simply cannot understand if you have never experienced it. I am a different person now, I never knew that something like this could happen.
They have been. But in the old times such behavior would quickly get you labelled as a village slut and become avoided by most people.
But in the social media age companies need such people to generate content that drives engagement, and serves a a conduit for ads. This creates incentives for such destructive behavior, and forces such people into others' attention spans, reinforcing the loop.
Fun covert narcissism fact 1: Covert narcissism (with focus on both grandiose and shame) has a statistically significant greater relative amount of personal reference in writing (how often they talk about themselves vs others).
Fun covert narcissism fact 2: The Apostle Paul, the "I'm the least of the apostles" and "I'm not less than the greatest apostles" guy, has a startlingly significant amount of personal reference in his authentic letters as compared to the non-Pauline Epistles to the point the Corinthians even seemingly commented on how much he talks about himself.
> Covert narcissism (with focus on both grandiose and shame) has a statistically significant greater relative amount of personal reference in writing (how often they talk about themselves vs others).
So does autism.
This pop-psychology crap needs to stop. It makes society a theocratic hell to live in.
Narcissists are absolutely a thing, but it sounds like you're conflating two groups.
The poly relationships I know, and the open relationships I know, just aren't even close to what you're describing. Even the closest singular example to what you're describing — one out of a dozen people who are open about being poly and a dozen more who are open about being open — was, despite being extremely selfish, not sadistic as the person you describe appears to be.
I don't see what this has to do with Narcissism. It's certainly a problem in society but I'm not seeing it here.
You did just describe a woman into "findom." They tend to be sadistic to their "paypigs," jerking them around (but not off) while extracting as much money as possible from them and dumping/extorting them in some humiliating manner.
FinDom is when you know what you are getting into it and do it anyways.
If you hire someone to dominate you, because you enjoy it, that is between you and them.
If someone comes into your life, mirrors you, pretends to be into everything you are into, gathers personal info pretending to be someone they are not, then turns it around and begins abusing you.
Readit News
They are often a last ditch effort at offsetting dead bedrooms, relationship problems, or other significant issues and they are often a cause of severe dating stress on you, your primary, and your secondary/tertiary/etc partners.
If you do want to absolutely do it, don’t do it via a mainstream app or don’t do it as a relationship—keep it as a hookup. But, if you insist this is good for you, instead join some sort of tight-knit community that is more open to such alternative relationship styles or you’re going to have a bad time. A really bad time.
In my extensive experience, of those who are open to open/polyamory are either doing it themselves or have serious issues with self-image and/or mental health. Of those who aren’t in these camps, the stress of the relationship dynamics will end up in hurt, pain, and a never-ending conversation about the situation or the lack of separation from the primary.
Again, keep it to hookups or tight-knit pro-open communities and away from those looking for something normal or stable. It’s not fair to anyone involved.
If it’s “working” for you via those mainstream dating communities, you’re either missing/ignoring the issues or you’re in a very tiny minority.
The degree of drama I’ve anecdotally seen them stir up seemed to support my hypothesis. I avoid them now.
Meanwhile journalists rest more and more on sexual politics to elicit interest in a public who is very tired of what they have to say.
How about we build stuff, and let people worry about their own love lives?
The apps are, by and large, very aware of these audiences and simultaneously averse to catering to them. Which is odd - the major shift to subscription-based Boosts, Super Likes, etc, is all geared towards keeping people using your dating app. The people most likely to want to come back are either A) those not finding a lasting monogamous relationship, or B) those who are open to finding more than one partner.
Dead Comment
I mean, it's not just poly people. What about kinksters, single parents, people with disabilities, drug users, bisexuals, poors etc? Why can't everyone on the normal people dating app just be normal like me and want the same normal things that I want?
Sounds suffocating.
I was BLINDSIDED by running into a woman at work who was: - Dating a dozen different men - On every dating app - Pathologically flirting with new men everywhere she goes - Flirting with me and co-workers - Texting / Calling me all the time at odd hours - Living a lifestyle of traveling all over the place every weekend, maintaining multiple relationships with multiple men at the same time - Constantly on the hunt for new men - Meeting and immediately texting broad and deep with new men on the spot - Deliberately hurting / breaking up with men in a nasty way just to enjoy harming them and gaining power over them
IT WAS WEIRD.
It wasn't until I learned about Covert Narcissism and how it is a really severe psychological condition that I understood what I was seeing.
These are the people who are pretending to be "polygamous" or "dating multiple people." It is NOT NORMAL and NOT HEALTHY and you DO NOT WANT IT AROUND YOU TRUST ME.
Society has become extremely sick, and social media, dating apps have given the sickest people the equivalent of methamphetamines to feed their addiction for relationship "supply" nonstop.
IF you grew up in the prior era, you may not understand JUST HOW BAD AND TOXIC IT HAS GOTTEN. It has FALLEN APART.
Stay away from these people, learn to spot them, they are sneaky and out to harm you ( I was personally harmed by this woman who was playing games with me ).
There needs to be broader awareness of narcissists, how they act and how to spot and avoid them. They are a societal cancer and the cancer is spreading.
Let's assume you were a willing participant. I don't know your situation, how it developed, what kind of tricks they used to make you a consenting person, but, if you think deeply and objectively, you were.
Looking back on the bad relationships I had, with the wisdom, reflections and experience that age and life give us, I realize that I could have said no, taken a different path, lived a different life. Sure, they were bad, and I was bad with them and with others, but there was no chain holding me there, except the one I myself was willing to fasten around my ankle, perhaps because I was lonely, or scared, or immature. Or because sex was amazing, and they were a great cook, so sweet when they wanted to be.
Bad relationships should make us reflect on the faults of others, but especially on our own shortcomings. At least, that is I see them today, and my life got much better because of it.
If you are not familiar with narcissistic abuse, they approach pretending to be someone they are not. They pretend to be your mirror, study you, use your language, mirror you.
Then they begin abusing you, it triggers something called a "Trauma Bond."
I had never experienced or even heard of this before. I could not stop thinking about her.
It is extremely addictive and sinister. The only solution was to get away to break the trauma bond.
These are things you simply cannot understand if you have never experienced it. I am a different person now, I never knew that something like this could happen.
But in the social media age companies need such people to generate content that drives engagement, and serves a a conduit for ads. This creates incentives for such destructive behavior, and forces such people into others' attention spans, reinforcing the loop.
Fun covert narcissism fact 2: The Apostle Paul, the "I'm the least of the apostles" and "I'm not less than the greatest apostles" guy, has a startlingly significant amount of personal reference in his authentic letters as compared to the non-Pauline Epistles to the point the Corinthians even seemingly commented on how much he talks about himself.
So does autism.
This pop-psychology crap needs to stop. It makes society a theocratic hell to live in.
Reading this thread has been fascinating.
Most people have never experienced it.
If you have been through it, YOU KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT.
Everyone else: "Nah thats normal."
WHAT HAPPENED TO ME IS NOT FUCKING NORMAL
The poly relationships I know, and the open relationships I know, just aren't even close to what you're describing. Even the closest singular example to what you're describing — one out of a dozen people who are open about being poly and a dozen more who are open about being open — was, despite being extremely selfish, not sadistic as the person you describe appears to be.
If they hide it, plus express all the other dark triad traits (sadistic / malignant behavior) I agree its different.
You did just describe a woman into "findom." They tend to be sadistic to their "paypigs," jerking them around (but not off) while extracting as much money as possible from them and dumping/extorting them in some humiliating manner.
If you hire someone to dominate you, because you enjoy it, that is between you and them.
If someone comes into your life, mirrors you, pretends to be into everything you are into, gathers personal info pretending to be someone they are not, then turns it around and begins abusing you.
That is covert malignant narcissim.
Deleted Comment
But ok, go ahead. Downvote away.
Also, SHOUTING.