> Infestation, vexation, obsession, I do thousands of those a year. I don't even keep track anymore. The real cases of demonic possession itself, I see maybe one or two or three a year on average.
I won't delve too deeply into this but to say...
Thousands a year is pretty hard to believe already. That's (at minimum) 2,000/yr: or 36k in 18 years. Or...5.5 per day (7days wk) or 7-8/day (5 days/wk). Seems physically impossible.
He's seeing 2-3 floaters a year or about 36-54 floaters in his life, so far. He's also seeing physical manifestations (snake's tongue, etc).
The Vatican clearly does not allow recordings (I remember reading this somewhere a few years back) and, to me, it's because nothing physical (manifestations, floating) is actually happening. Occam's razor: Information clamp-down (Vatican not allowing recordings, outside verification) *usually* only happens for a reason - it hurts a brand.
The Vatican say their numbers are growing. Many 3rd-party newspapers say different. As an atheist, I won't source this.
I'll just say that nothing about the exorcist's claims, his numbers, the lack of transparency... feels right. Nothing. Too many dark patterns.
Oh come on, this isn't how any of this works. We don't have PK Meters like in Ghostbusters. If you want to adopt a positivist worldview, then none of this is possible or real. Some people come to the conclusion that determinative materialism is just a subset of reality, though. The issue here is observation, "qualia". In the absence of some paradigmal revolution, we don't have the tools to investigate this observer problem, "the hard problem of consciousness" with regular science.
As an atheist if I saw this (levitation) in person I would very quickly become a believer. That said the lack of any real evidence is telling considering this would be the greatest marketing material for recruiting new members.
> Demons are also ultimately suffering sentient beings, who think their actions will bring them some sort of satisfaction, happiness.
If I’m not mistaken, in the Christian religion, no. They are sentient beings who are cast out of heaven and are in permanent desperation because of it (so far we agree). But as far as I know it’s out of spite and jealousy they want to bring as many people as they can with them; they most definitely know it won’t bring them happiness.
Also calling them sentient is probably misleading as they are angelic entities and they cannot change ever. They made a decision when they were created (follow God or not), and that’s that. So sentient yes, but most definitely not Human-like.
>Also calling them sentient is probably misleading as they are angelic entities and they cannot change ever. They made a decision when they were created (follow God or not), and that’s that. So sentient yes, but most definitely not Human-like.
As I recall the Biblical narrative, they were convinced to turn against God when Lucifer led his rebellion against Heaven, because he and a third of the other angels refused to humble themselves before the newly created humans. The premise of angels as being unchangeable in their nature is a modern fantasy stereotype - in Biblical canon at least, they are clearly presented as capable of free will and decision making.
Obviously this doesn't entirely make sense within the framework of original sin - angels shouldn't be capable of turning against God, since that capacity is by definition sinful, and no sinful being can stand in the presence of God, but clearly angels do. Mythology rarely if ever includes what we would consider "coherent worldbuilding" from a modern literary point of view - that isn't its purpose, and what we have is an attempt to correlate the remnants of thousands of years of oral tradition and folkore with all of the myriad strangeness that entails.
Reading some material about Tibet, I got the idea that a "demon" can be a sort of an independent energy center in the mind that can act coherently against the host. I don't think this is irrevocably inconsistent with Western analyses of ill minds.
Let me guess, it looks like a mixture of epilepsy and schizophrenia, plus a splash of frustration and anger that your serious and medically recognized condition is being treated by someone LARPing as a Cleric?
The article gives the example of the priest working with the patient’s doctor to conclude his affliction is medical, just as you describe, and not demonic. Patient is disappointed he didn’t get a faith-based reason for his suffering.
I’m struck by this example, because it gives me the idea this priest’s main job is to look for evidence of something that doesn’t exist. Arguably, like SETI research.
…
I’m thinking about this drug addict I met once on a day labor job. He was describing to me how he faked different mental illnesses to get better drugs. I’m guessing there was something underlying, and he’s working from there. The previous guy is looking for a reason underlying his condition. The latter guy is developing his conditions.
It seems like this exorcist job would deal with people on a spectrum of strong religious beliefs—people with rare conditions grasping for answers, people who convince themselves and maybe manifest the symptoms consciously or unconsciously, and people who are truly mentally lost, and I would add, lost in the man-made fiction.
If the church exists for any positive purpose, it’s to help people who are suffering. In the latter type, only a trained exorcist trained in faith and in ‘evil’ distortions of church doctrine could help. Like a specialist software/hardware debugger.
His job is to help alleviate suffering because he has this knowledge of weird, and to protect the church. Like a spiritual fire fighter.
The exorcist must be some of the most devoted Christian on the planet. If someone is believing something that much, they can't be considered a fair or reliable observer. Even a staunch atheist when pressured enough and presented with an ambiguous situation (e.g. a weird picture where the shape and shadows just conveniently form a paranormal figure) would start to make false assumptions. Now make it a priest whose entire life is spent on seeing "demons" and I would not be surprised if these guys are going to hallucinate while waking.
Readit News
I won't delve too deeply into this but to say...
Thousands a year is pretty hard to believe already. That's (at minimum) 2,000/yr: or 36k in 18 years. Or...5.5 per day (7days wk) or 7-8/day (5 days/wk). Seems physically impossible.
He's seeing 2-3 floaters a year or about 36-54 floaters in his life, so far. He's also seeing physical manifestations (snake's tongue, etc).
The Vatican clearly does not allow recordings (I remember reading this somewhere a few years back) and, to me, it's because nothing physical (manifestations, floating) is actually happening. Occam's razor: Information clamp-down (Vatican not allowing recordings, outside verification) *usually* only happens for a reason - it hurts a brand.
The Vatican say their numbers are growing. Many 3rd-party newspapers say different. As an atheist, I won't source this.
I'll just say that nothing about the exorcist's claims, his numbers, the lack of transparency... feels right. Nothing. Too many dark patterns.
Yeah i definitely wanna see the floaty part. If it happens 3 times a year with this guy in the same room, i wanna see 'floaters'
like if someone just asked a random machine learning researcher to 'make a video showing how AI works' it would probably be just as difficult for them
The retort is that we can't expect evidence as "exists" in some other fictional story.
/me shakes head slowly
having cynically posted this link, i'd like to post another in the opposite direction from the tibetan buddhist tradition
https://alearningaday.blog/2020/01/23/milarepa-and-the-demon...
and one from the theravada buddhist tradition
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.1.10.piy...
Demons are also ultimately suffering sentient beings, who think their actions will bring them some sort of satisfaction, happiness.
If I’m not mistaken, in the Christian religion, no. They are sentient beings who are cast out of heaven and are in permanent desperation because of it (so far we agree). But as far as I know it’s out of spite and jealousy they want to bring as many people as they can with them; they most definitely know it won’t bring them happiness.
Also calling them sentient is probably misleading as they are angelic entities and they cannot change ever. They made a decision when they were created (follow God or not), and that’s that. So sentient yes, but most definitely not Human-like.
As I recall the Biblical narrative, they were convinced to turn against God when Lucifer led his rebellion against Heaven, because he and a third of the other angels refused to humble themselves before the newly created humans. The premise of angels as being unchangeable in their nature is a modern fantasy stereotype - in Biblical canon at least, they are clearly presented as capable of free will and decision making.
Obviously this doesn't entirely make sense within the framework of original sin - angels shouldn't be capable of turning against God, since that capacity is by definition sinful, and no sinful being can stand in the presence of God, but clearly angels do. Mythology rarely if ever includes what we would consider "coherent worldbuilding" from a modern literary point of view - that isn't its purpose, and what we have is an attempt to correlate the remnants of thousands of years of oral tradition and folkore with all of the myriad strangeness that entails.
I’m struck by this example, because it gives me the idea this priest’s main job is to look for evidence of something that doesn’t exist. Arguably, like SETI research.
…
I’m thinking about this drug addict I met once on a day labor job. He was describing to me how he faked different mental illnesses to get better drugs. I’m guessing there was something underlying, and he’s working from there. The previous guy is looking for a reason underlying his condition. The latter guy is developing his conditions.
It seems like this exorcist job would deal with people on a spectrum of strong religious beliefs—people with rare conditions grasping for answers, people who convince themselves and maybe manifest the symptoms consciously or unconsciously, and people who are truly mentally lost, and I would add, lost in the man-made fiction.
If the church exists for any positive purpose, it’s to help people who are suffering. In the latter type, only a trained exorcist trained in faith and in ‘evil’ distortions of church doctrine could help. Like a specialist software/hardware debugger.
His job is to help alleviate suffering because he has this knowledge of weird, and to protect the church. Like a spiritual fire fighter.