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Posted by u/d_burfoot 2 years ago
Ask HN: Why don't more middle-class Americans emigrate to Europe?
I am on a European vacation right now, and I'm amazed by how healthy and prosperous the average European looks. I'm aware Europeans tend to have lower incomes (especially in the tech sector), but it seems that a great quality of life is much easier to achieve for the average person. So I would think that millions of middle-class Americans would benefit enormously from emigrating to Europe (the lower class would also benefit, but I suppose that emigration is more difficult for those with limited education and skills).

Here are some reasons I considered, feel free to add more:

- It's hard to be rational about quality-of-life issues. A salary is a number that can be compared, but QoL isn't, so people can't make decisions based on it

- It's actually hard for middle-class Americans to emigrate to Europe, for complex technical reasons

- Americans are afraid of learning languages, and the language barrier is a big factor

- American immigrants can't actually achieve the QoL that native Europeans have, for social reasons (hard to get promoted, make friends, etc)

- European QoL isn't actually that good, it just seems good on the surface. The well-dressed and healthy people I'm seeing on the streets are actually miserable

- Americans think of themselves as "temporarily frustrated millionaires". An American accepts lower QoL for a shot at one day making it big, even though most are going to be disappointed

keiferski · 2 years ago
As an American that has lived in Europe for nearly a decade now, I think you vastly underestimate the cultural differences between the two continents. I think the average middle class American would feel boxed in here, annoyed by the constant bureaucratic action required to get things done, and somewhat confused by the general lack of "can do" attitude.

Moving here requires the ability to be a kind of permanent outsider who nonetheless is reminded by the dominance of his culture on every corner. It's a strange feeling and not one that I think most people are prepared to deal with.

Edit, in case I was unclear: by "dominant," I mean that American culture is everywhere. McDonalds, Starbucks, Hollywood celebrities, Netflix shows, hamburgers, popular music, on and on. European youth culture is probably more influenced by American culture (via the Internet) than any other single source.

remyp · 2 years ago
> somewhat confused by the general lack of "can do" attitude

I moved from the US to Europe a year ago and this rings so true it hurts. Sometimes requests (for anything from another glass of wine to government bureaucracy with big stakes) are simply met with a shrug and "nope, I can't do that." No solutions, no apology, they just go back to looking at their phone. This is nearly nonexistent in the US.

In general, living in southern Europe it's a big adjustment to a culture where time essentially has no value, or at least is valued way less than in the US. Just wait another 30 minutes, why are you in such a hurry?

sloaken · 2 years ago
I have 2 stories of the 'no can do' in Europe vs USA.

Was on a business trip to Oslo Norway. Meeting involved a bunch of people, from around Europe. A couple of Finish guys joined my wife and me at a very nice restaurant. Not coat and tie, but definitely a major step up from a USA chain steakhouse. One of the Finns wanted a hamburger, but he was a big boy and was very hungry, it was 7 hours since we had lunch. So he asked that his hamburger be made with 2 patties of beef, not one, happy to pay whatever the price was. Waiter left, came back 15 minutes later and said sorry 'we cannot do that'. Excluding fast food, I cannot think of any place that would sell a hamburger in the USA that would not have accommodated my friend.

2nd event is the UK mobile phone service. At least my experience when you go to a brick and mortar store (not a kiosk), the manager there has the authority to do pretty much anything. Not literally, but they can get a lot accomplished if you need help. In the UK the people at the store do not know, and are not authorized to do anything beyond sell you a phone. And God forbid you want to terminate your service. Hours and hours later.... if you are lucky .... they will let you end your service (assuming contract is fully paid) in 2 months from now.

toomuchtodo · 2 years ago
It’s strange you write this comment, but then in another acknowledge the US rat race culture and time poverty.

Why are you in such a hurry? Europe is to live slower and enjoy life.

dauertewigkeit · 2 years ago
Your post is the most on point. The culture is way too different and especially for this community it should be obvious: the risk averse culture, the pessimism, the crabs in a bucket mentality and the relative lack of economic opportunities, especially in IT.
fatfingerd · 2 years ago
That sounds like Pennsylvania? Naturally there are key cities that you can't get on other continents and for many IT people that's usually San Francisco. But if you aren't actually in one of these key places it's often a matter of imagination that you think the place you are in is similar culturally, etc.
d_burfoot · 2 years ago
> I think you vastly underestimate the cultural differences between the two continents.

On the contrary, I think the cultural differences are huge, and lead to an enormous advantage in health and quality of life for Europeans.

As someone who hates bureaucracy, I can certainly see how many Americans would be infuriated by European culture in this area. But you have to balance these issues against enormous American problems like obesity, opioid addiction, suburban sprawl, poor government services, crime, the mental health crisis, racial tension, political polarization, etc.

keiferski · 2 years ago
A lot of these things are just as big of problems in parts of Europe. There are many other problems unique to Europe.

Sorry but I don’t think going somewhere on vacation gives much insight to how it’s actually like living there.

remyp · 2 years ago
I'm an American and moved from the US to Portugal a year ago, though I still spend a lot of time in the US. Here's what my biggest challenges have been:

- Family and friends are now an 8 hour flight and 6 time zones away. Staying connected is difficult, particularly given American rat race schedules. I don't have children, so this is a challenge but manageable.

- The visa -- among the easiest to get for Americans with no family ties to Europe -- took 5 months and TONS of paperwork. I had to lease an apartment for an entire year in order to APPLY for the visa. In total, it cost about $40k to get set up there. Most middle-class Americans don't have that laying around.

- The language/culture barrier is real, even in a place with lots of English speakers. I'm diligent about attending lessons and studying, but it takes time. Learning the culture is even harder and I quite regularly make a fool of myself in public.

- Above all, I've gained an appreciation for how optimized for convenience life in the US is. I dry my clothes outdoors on a line just like everyone else. This alone is a nonstarter for most Americans I know.

p1esk · 2 years ago
Why did you move there?
remyp · 2 years ago
Lots of reasons, in no particular order:

- I've wanted to live in Europe for as long as I can remember. I can apply for a Portuguese passport after 5 years of residency, which unlocks the entire continent.

- I'm from Chicago and can no longer handle the 6 months of no sun and debilitating seasonal depression during the winter.

- I'm at the age where I'm no longer invincible health-wise and the US system is a comically expensive dumpster fire. The Portuguese health system has problems, but it is unlikely to literally bankrupt me like in the US.

- The US has had (on average) multiple mass shootings _per day_ this year [0]. Portugal has had _one_ and is one of the safest countries on the planet.

- Cost of living in Portugal (for an American) is low. This allows me to work less and live more.

- I'm a guy and I've never fit in to the dominant American (particularly midwestern) macho culture. Expectations for men are different in Portugal and Europe in general, so I'm much more comfortable.

- US politics. No further comment.

[0] https://abcnews.go.com/US/mass-shootings-days-2023-database-...

didip · 2 years ago
Did you go with D7 visa or golden visa?
remyp · 2 years ago
D7, because I actually want to live in Portugal. That was before the new DN visa, though. I'm told that anyone with active (ie employment) income needs to apply for the nomad visa.
zeroego · 2 years ago
I'm a middle-class person from the US. I've even had several short stints of living in Europe. I'd love to live in one of the countries there, but being a little bit older now I really don't want to start over again. Making new friends is hard, and it gets harder the older you get. Not to mention family here in the states. I've spent a few holiday seasons alone and it sucks.

To add to your QoL statement I feel as though European countries have a different kind of QoL. Here in the states the material quality of life is high. Things here are cheap compared to the rest of the world. Whereas in say, Germany, the social QoL is higher. People are more taken care of there and overall have less stress. Cities are walk-able, trains can actually take you where you want to go in a reasonable amount of time, a sense of community still exists. I think of lot of people from the US value the type of QoL we have here over what they have in various European countries.

vannevar · 2 years ago
> ...I'm amazed by how healthy and prosperous the average European looks.

Are you sure you're seeing the "average European?" Europe is a pretty big, diverse place. If you're spending most of your time in the wealthier parts of town in a big city, you're going to see a very different Europe than the poor section of a rural village.

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asciimov · 2 years ago
1. Family and support systems are here, not Europe.

2. Cost. I do not thing you understand how unfathomably expensive it would be to move from North America to Europe. Heck moving around the States can be extremely expensive already.

3. Unfamiliar culture. The average American is steeped in American Culture and is ignorant of anything elsewhere.

4. No ties to Europe.

5. Desire. Americans are blasted every day about opportunities here. We constantly hear about immigrants coming here but we never hear about opportunities over there. Our news plays into this, as they only cover bad things, so if we hear about Europe it's epically bad.

Symbiote · 2 years ago
Cost depends on how much you own. A colleague moved here from Canada with two suitcases. Someone else brought an entire container of furniture.

I moved here with 1m³ of stuff sent by road/sea and three suitcases on the plane, but some years later and I somehow own an apartment full of stuff.

matt_s · 2 years ago
Good ordering. There's also the entire topic of visa's and right to work in places in EU that may have restrictions on foreigners taking jobs away.

Vacationing to places in EU is fun but you won't see/hear about the large issues the people living there have on a daily basis. You're a tourist doing sight-seeing.

laurentl · 2 years ago
Define "middle class Americans"? Hard to give a precise answer otherwise.

A few (other) explanations:

* QoL is hard to be rational about, and is something that (I think) has to be experienced first-hand. European salaries are most probably lower for comparable jobs (they certainly are for high-wage workers) but pack more punch because of better social benefits and, depending on where you live, lower CoL. However it can be hard to convince yourself that 40 k€ in Spain affords you a better QoL than 80k$ in California unless you've experienced both. I mean, 40 is much less than 80, right?

* the "American Dream" is still a big part of the American (and global, for that matter) psyche. I would wager most Americans think the US is a place to emigrate to, not from. I don't know if many middle-class Americans would spontaneously envision emigrating to Europe. This is probably even more true for descendants of recent immigrants: if your family struggled to get to the US, why would you consider leaving?

* Ability to live abroad, in particular mastering a foreign language well enough to live and work in the country

* I'm not sure how well employability travels. You can work as a developer in just about any country but I think this is an exception. A medical diploma does not transfer well between countries (e.g. you probably need to start again as an intern, re-take exams, etc.), neither does a law diploma. More "middle class" jobs will have similar barriers to entry. E.g. if you're a plumber in the US and move to Europe you have to deal with different construction codes, installed base, local habits... Same thing if you're an auto mechanic: different car manufacturers, different regulations, etc.

onecommentman · 2 years ago
Americans in HCOL locations have a third option to Europe, and that is the rest of the United States. RoUS provides close to a factor of two cost savings, you speak the language, same level of bureaucracy, close (enough) to family, similar enough culture to be comforting but with enough differences to make it interesting (desert Southwest, Deep South, New England, Florida Keys, Midwest, Appalachia, PNW, Intermountain West, Alaska, Hawaii, Texas…). Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean a drive/cruise away and provide their own long term opportunities. The United States is much more culturally diverse than the few places Europeans choose to visit for extended stays.

The United States offers a political stability that Europe has yet to demonstrate long-term (cherry-picking here, but let’s say over the last 150 years, two modern lifetimes). The comic opera/snuff film of European wars in the 1900s did provide 104366 young Americans with a forced permanent relocation to Europe. Not a positive memory for Americans.

And Americans can develop a community in the United States that achieves many of the charming aspects of European life. Americans have both the freedom and gumption to do that, if they wish. Americans are not limited by land nor resources, intellectual, cultural or otherwise, nor vision.

ushercakes · 2 years ago
- Perceptions matter. A lot of Americans think it's best here. Those that say how bad it is here, tend to not be the types that would be qualified for EU visas (i.e, you're not going to move to EU on a skilled worker visa if you're an unskilled, unhappy worker in the US) - Family matters. People leaving family usually emigrate for more money, and US -> EU isn't a more money situation most of the time. - It's not so easy to just emigrate. You need to be highly qualified or have ancestral ties. If you're highly qualified though, you can probably earn better money in the US. For the wealthy, US is subjectively "better".

I think ultimately it's just a matter of opportunity. If people are generally comfortable with their life, why would they move? They will only do it if a fantastic 10/10 opportunity presents itself; there aren't many 10/10 obvious opportunities to emigrate to Europe for.

sheepshear · 2 years ago
I'd say impulsivity and asymmetric extra opportunity.

A European can usefully learn English before knowing what they'll use it for, pounce on whatever opportunity arises in the more impulsive US economy, possibly multiple times in different places, make some extra money for some years, and then eventually return home to a lower cost of living. Going the other way requires more planning and more specific goals for no bigger a payoff than can be found domestically, which naturally filters out many people.