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Posted by u/ryanchoi51 3 years ago
Ask HN: Does anyone else have anxiety during standup?
As a software engineer, I have 1-2 stand ups per day, 30 minutes each. One with the product and eng team and another with just engineers. The product standup includes directors, executives and managers. We go through three things: What we did yesterday, what we are doing today and if there are there any issues.

I’m having trouble coming up with meaningful updates and constantly question if im doing enough work or providing enough value compared to my coworkers - even if im delivering the work being asked. Sometimes my updates are very brief but my coworkers are quite long and detailed and I feel the team may judge me for the amount of work im doing. It feels like an added stress on top of the actual work and takes up energy in the day.

How do you deal with the stress of standup anxiety? Am I just overthinking?

adrianmsmith · 3 years ago
A previous job was like this, and I am a very uneven worker - sometimes I do a lot when I'm in the flow, sometimes I hardly do anything (despite wanting to).

On those days when I hadn't done much, my manager, the product manager, and the project manager, would all imply pretty strongly I hadn't done enough at the next standup, and ask why I hadn't done more, and so on. Pretty stressful.

What I started to do was, when I had a good day, hold some work back. I'd only "git push" some of the work I'd done. Only move some of the tickets along. At standup I'd just mention the first half of the work. That way when a day inevitably came along when I hadn't done much, I could claim to have "done" the second half of the work I'd previously done.

My relationship with the various managers greatly improved.

I don't know if this way of working was really beneficial to the company, but it was the company that was setting up my incentive structure this way, I was simply responding to it. I got the same amount of work done in total anyway so I figured it didn't really matter too much morally.

tacostakohashi · 3 years ago
I have also used this strategy with great success.

If there is micro-management, where people are looking at numbers and times of commits or ticket updates or whatever instead of outcomes and impact, it only makes sense to give them what they (think they) want.

In terms of standup updates, if the audience wants some 5 minute summary, it can be given, it doesn't need to be reflective of the reality of the past 24 hours, it could include some content saved up from previous days, etc.

strikelaserclaw · 3 years ago
this is the way, surprised others don't use this. From working in the corporate world, 60% of the job is just keeping a certain kind of appearance up.
roflyear · 3 years ago
Yeah. But man what a shit way to get by in life.
GoToRO · 3 years ago
Great! Now we have to manage the "managers" and also do the work.
dugmartin · 3 years ago
You nearly always have to “manage up”.
jamier1978 · 3 years ago
"an uneven worker" sums me up nicely.
virtueman · 3 years ago
This is the point of standup. Give the worker anxiety and pressure him to do more work. During my years and years of standup, I never learned anything useful and I doubt anyone else did either.

The good news is that management generally doesn't understand the low level details, so you can project confidence while using technical jargon to make them think you are far more productive than is the reality. It's really just a performance.

misterflibble · 3 years ago
I can't vote this high enough, this is exactly my thinking
knewter · 3 years ago
About ever other standuo one of us will ask to sidebar after with someone to help them with an issue they brought up. If people pay attention and focus on pragmatism it can be incredibly effective. We do three per week
samelawrence · 3 years ago
This anxiety is very common. In the best, most blameless organizational cultures, team members are allowed to say "I didn't get much done yesterday" on an occasional basis and are forgiven for it - but I realize that reality isn't often like that.

In reality, sometimes you have to just BS things, as others have suggested, by holding some work back from your big flow-state pushes, or by dithering around with words like "I looked into...". It sounds like your standups are more about making management feel better than they are about engineers removing obstacles from each other. That's a hard problem to solve and probably outside the scope of what you can affect. Just do the best you can to survive and be successful in the situation you're in.

If I had any advice to give, it's to learn from how harmful and toxic this pattern is, and as you move up into seniority and management, make efforts to not repeat this mistake. Standup should be a time to discuss how the TEAM is making progress on delivering value to customers, not a time to compare individual efforts against each other. Managers should be involved enough in the lives of their teams to be able to make disciplinary or promotional calls for individual contributors without standup being where they receive that signal.

Viliam1234 · 3 years ago
Note that according to Scrum-in-theory the managers shouldn't even be at the daily standup. The entire purpose is coordination between the developers. You say "I am working on X" so that people who know or do something relevant to X are reminded to tell you about it (after the standup). Also, once in a while two people accidentally start working on the same thing (maybe the first one forgets to assign the ticket to themselves), and at the standup this becomes obvious.

However, Scrum-in-practice is usually something quite different.

proc0 · 3 years ago
Yes, and I think it is because it is about being evaluated (inevitably). Standups should be about teammates discussing tasks among each other, this is less pressure and creates more of a helpful atmosphere. However in most teams/companies I've been in, it just feels like devs have to spoon feed managers on the status. Just saying it would be nice to focus on work and have leaders be more proactive in understanding what is going on instead of having these expectations that you will explain everything perfectly while they evaluate your performance.
Syntonicles · 3 years ago
I was in a similar situation, and have a life-long history of panic attacks. I would have them during stand-ups, which was absolute hell. I went on to face this, becoming a public speaker (technically speaking) and also a professional skydiver and occasional BASE jumper.

Things that help me in general are cardio, weightlifting, mindfulness exercises and meditation. Knowing I can walk away from a situation and be ok financially is huge.

Things that helped me specifically with daily stand-ups:

1. Preparing questions. Asking a probing question puts the pressure on the person that you feel is evaluating you. If you have a blocker, begin with asking the other engineer if they have completed that dependency. Always have a question in the chamber. Be careful not to throw others under the bus, especially if they are anxious or junior. The best questions are directed at the higher ups. After a year I learned that the executives were nervous about my questions and joked about my reputation as a "hard-hitter". That really helped me to feel more in control. Never put the company in a bad light with your phrasing.

2. Volunteer. Being third in line is panic inducing. Combat this by jumping the gun. I was often shocked to hear myself say "I'll go first" or "I'll start". My heart rate would jump a little but my brain didn't even have time to sort out my self-trickery before. The relief you feel after doing this is incredible. Also, there's something inherently calming about deciding to speak, rather than being expected to.

3. Conversational style. Providing an update can be terrifying. Having a casual conversation is [hopefully] not. Make it a back-and-forth. Not all of your questions need to be interrogations, simply passing the buck with a softball like "Can you clarify..." or "I'm thinking of doing this, what's your opinion?" make all the difference.

WorldMaker · 3 years ago
Standups are supposed to be uncomfortable for everyone which is where they got their name: they are supposed to be 5-10 minute tops run throughs where everyone is standing to remind them to not get too comfortable or talk too long.

The problem may not be entirely you: 30 minutes each sounds like at least some some of your coworkers in those meetings are far too "comfortable" and taking too much time giving too many details that don't matter to what the standup is supposed to get across. (It's not supposed to be a list of all the work you've done, but to find places where you can cross-cut: work you did that may help someone else but neither of you realize it; problems you have that maybe someone else solved earlier.)

The other indication that there may be process breakdowns around you outside of what standup is supposed to mean is that standups were originally supposed to be only engineering (in theory). A "product standup" with directors, executives, and managers doesn't sound at all like what a standup is supposed to be, to me, it sounds like a daily micro-management checkin meeting.

You probably don't have any power to fix a broken process, but if it gives you some small comfort, it may not be entirely just you in this case. Your meetings may be asking more of you than they are supposed to be and of course that adds additional anxiety and stress.

xedrac · 3 years ago
I absolutely hate daily standups. I switched jobs to a company that holds one "standup" a week, and my stress has dropped significantly and my productivity has increased. Daily standups were draining my energy much more than I realized at the time.
ojkelly · 3 years ago
Two 30m standups in a day aren’t really standups. That’s starting your day with an hour of meetings. Which is probably partly responsible for killing the momentum you need to get through your work.

You’re anxiety is likely because you don’t feel safe sharing the amount of progress you did or didn’t make. Unless your working on the most basic boring stuff, you’re not going to have the same rate of progress—at least not in a manner that is easily digestible in a standup.

I’ve seen this play out in so many teams over the last decade. A standup shouldn’t be a daily grilling on progress by higher-ups. If you’re team is full of adults and professionals, you don’t need hurrying along.

IMHO A standup over 15m means the team is too big, or you’re all sharing too much.

The most useful thing I’ve found standups do is surface blockers to the whole team, as there is often someone who can help that you might not expect.

If you need to go deep into anything, do it after the standup so others can leave.