With Microsoft moving away from formal PTO tracking to DTO (discretionary time off), so I was wondering what others have experienced and think of working at a company without formal time off tracking.
I have someone on my team who took 12 weeks PTO last year, yet still created outsized value for the company.
I have someone who we lured to the team by offering 4 weeks off in the first 2 months of his employment so he could do a pre-planned trip. Didn't require any special approvals because it's just an SOP.
I have someone who regularly takes 2-3 days off every month, because he works in concentrated bursts of energy, then needs to decompress.
And of course, I have one person who NEVER takes time off, because they always have so much to do and are afraid to let a ball drop. This leads to overwhelm, and a ball drops anyhow. So I need to force them to take time off.
As with all things, it's not just the mechanism, but the environment that mechanism exists within. It needs to be deployed alongside strong accountability mechanisms - planning, goaling, 1:1s, team health assessments, and performance reviews - otherwise it can be abused, or it can be hard to say 'no' to a request, or it can be hard to know when people aren't taking time they need.
Your manager also depends on your whims. And not only yours.
Managers are as accountable as their staff, if not more.
Managers eject from the seat even quicker and for problems oftentimes in no ways caused by them.
They have to deal with people only honouring their own wishes, with policies that would never be a fit. They came up with their own: take all the time you want. All the way you want. I will make sure to fire you if you aren't providing value rather than chase your hours and time taken off.
Note: I'm not a manager. will never be one. I simply have a bit of compassion for their job: they are tasked to make other people get the work done.
> I have someone on my team who took 12 weeks PTO last year, yet still created outsized value for the company.
Hypothetically, what if this individual was taking 12 weeks PTO and were underperforming? Would your business encourage them to take less leave next year to perform better? How much leave would be 'too much' for them to get back on track?
The thing is all of that requires a lot of trust in both directions, as you pretty much said. If I am a candidate for your company, how do I know that trust is there?
Recently I interviewed for a company which had unlimited PTO. They marketted this to me as some fantastic perk, and then when I got the contract they had a clause which said that they ask people to only take 'reasonable' amounts of time off. I asked them to define what is 'reasonable' and they could not. At that point, all of my red flags were waving and I walked away.
> When you leave a company with PTO where you worked your ass off and never took any vacation, you're cut a check for that unused PTO.
This is objectively false for most of the United States. Plenty of states do not require this, and plenty more have loopholes that allow employers to avoid paying out PTO if specified in the employment agreement.
It's also the case that PTO is always capped. So you are forced to use it, meaning the maximum amount you could be paid out is a fairly small fixed amount. Unused PTO above the cap is literally wasted, and used PTO is already part of your salary.
But is it obviously false for the majority of software engineers in the USA, or even in the world? It is true for WA, CA, and NY. It is truer in Europe.
Where I work, if I don't use a certain percentage of my earned PTO by Dec 31, it just goes away. They don't cut me a check for it.
I think I'd get paid for unused PTO if I quit or was fired, but I couldn't accumulate more than something like 5 weeks worth.
I'd love to work for a company that had both unlimited and required PTO. If you don't take enough days off for say six months, they force you to take a week or two off.
> Where I work, if I don't use a certain percentage of my earned PTO by Dec 31, it just goes away. They don't cut me a check for it.
No one I have ever heard of gets cut a check for unused time et the end of the year. It's when you leave (for any reason) in most states you are supposed to be paid out for it. Not true for unlimited PTO.
Small companies don’t like to carry the liabilities. It makes the company look worse for loans and investors. So they claw back what they gave you which is harder to spot on the books. If you buy a company it’s usually for the people and you won’t know how disgruntled they are until after.
I had a similar experience at a startup where I'd never used any PTO endlessly burning at both ends.
A few years in, executives abruptly told everyone they were switching to "unlimited PTO" and everyone's accrued PTO would be erased "since it's no longer necessary, take as much vacation as you want."
Sales/marketing depts celebrated.
My team in engineering flipped out since none of us had ever used any PTO, and knew there were some sizable checks waiting for our exit. I ended up telling leadership if they pull this erasing shit, which is probably illegal, I quit immediately and will be in tomorrow to interview and renegotiate compensation if they like. Everyone received checks for their unused PTO that week.
They still switched to unlimited PTO, which us in engineering never really got to use. In a startup it's a race against the runway running out while you're still building the plane, nobody has time for PTO, and they knew this.
Between the protection of owning inventions created on your own time, and getting paid for unused PTO, my state (CA) sounds pretty great for a tech person working in startups.
If you use all your PTO there really is no difference though, so I guess if you're the kind of person who burns through all their available PTO, I would not consider a Unlimited PTO employer a bad deal. Some of the agencies I work with at my job, they have unlimited PTO, we only found out because one of my managers noticed one particular person had a lot of PTO they ran through last year.
Unlimited PTO, is in my opinion a scam to make sure the unused PTO does not accrue as a liability on the books and has dubious value to employees. At least in states that require payout of unused PTO when you leave.
In most cases it is dependent on the managers approval as well so it rarely ever (again, anecdotally based on my experiences) results in more PTO that you would have had and often results in less.
It also creates a bit of a situation internally where people feel guilty or are shamed (sometimes even by other peers not managers) for using too much.
On the flip side, at least you don't have that "I don't want to use my PTO incase there is an emergency" and "I'll go in sick to avoid using a sick day" effect.
On this note though...
> of working at a company without formal time off tracking.
No company doesn't have formal tracking. They are most certainly tracking it closely. There just isn't a defined ceiling in the system.
Disclaimer: I'm a bit biased since it bit me. My employer switched to unlimited PTO without warning and previously had all the vacation days accrue on Jan 1st (and no carry-over) so literally if I left Dec 31st I would have gotten paid out 4 weeks (since I barely took any time off this year) but I left after the policy took effect so I didn't get paid anything. So I'm a bit bitter.
I once worked at a place that transitioned from formal PTO to "unlimited" PTO. Many of us had accrued a good chunk of time on the old system, and the rules of the old system was that it carried year after year. When "unlimited" PTO was implemented, management decided not to reimburse us for our accrued time, since "it was all now covered by 'unlimited'" and so we didn't technically "lose" any time. Didn't feel right, but I didn't know how to voice it at the time.
See [1]. If you lived in a state that pays out money for unused PTO, then that transition didn't feel right to you because the company failed to pay compensation you earned.
Your experience was very similar to mine. I wonder how many companies pulled this shit when "unlimited pto" became a fad. I know now that it was simply wage theft.
I once worked at a place that went the opposite way -- "unlimited" PTO often translated to "nobody was taking time off and everyone was burning out", so there was a move to a "soft" (eg: you could take up to 2x your annual allotment without penalty and without requiring any extra approvals) limited PTO.
It worked, more people took time off and there was less burnout+turnover.
My first "real" job in software was at a startup with unlimited PTO. In my experience what this meant was that the rank-and-file engineers took no time off while management would be out of the office for months at a time.
same experience. the only person who used it in earnest was the head of HR. For lower tier employees it was much worse than a given X number of days - they had to request the time off from their manager and could (and were) denied taking time off.
Unlimited PTO is a negative signal to me honestly, and would put me off a job.
The open-ended nature of “unlimited” makes me think it really means “guilt-based” time off, skewing to less time than I might take if it was included in a contract.
Have only recently started considering employed work again after many years of freelance and contract work and it’s made me really cold on the idea simply because it smells of more of the bullquick I wanted to get away from in the first place.
> Unlimited PTO is a negative signal to me honestly, and would put me off a job.
This is exactly my experience. The last company I worked for with unlimited PTO did everything to prevent folks from using it.
It's one of many negative signals I look for. I interviewed at a firm once that was proud that their cafeteria offered "free breakfast, lunch, and dinner", which sounded great until you realized they expected all employees would be working there through breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
Others have noted the risks involved with unlimited PTO, but FWIW, I have been able to enjoy this perk at my current job. This is just to say that there exists at least one place that does it "right", and it's a rather great thing. I took 6 weeks off last summer, in addition to a week off for Christmas and another for Easter. I work remotely for a SV startup.
I should note that I'm definitely right-of-the-bell-curve on this. I very intentionally decided to enjoy the perk. My employer was cool about it, but I suspect it's because my productivity is also above average.
I should also mention that I think this long vacation time does wonders for my productivity on the job, and that most Americans I've encountered under-estimate both the extent to which disconnecting from work is important, and how long it takes to truly disconnect.
In sum, I think unlimited PTO can be an incredible perk, but you have to pay very careful attention to the company culture, and be prepared to leave if it's not what you expected.
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I have someone who we lured to the team by offering 4 weeks off in the first 2 months of his employment so he could do a pre-planned trip. Didn't require any special approvals because it's just an SOP.
I have someone who regularly takes 2-3 days off every month, because he works in concentrated bursts of energy, then needs to decompress.
And of course, I have one person who NEVER takes time off, because they always have so much to do and are afraid to let a ball drop. This leads to overwhelm, and a ball drops anyhow. So I need to force them to take time off.
As with all things, it's not just the mechanism, but the environment that mechanism exists within. It needs to be deployed alongside strong accountability mechanisms - planning, goaling, 1:1s, team health assessments, and performance reviews - otherwise it can be abused, or it can be hard to say 'no' to a request, or it can be hard to know when people aren't taking time they need.
But if you've done that, it's an incredible tool.
Sounds perfect.
Managers are as accountable as their staff, if not more.
Managers eject from the seat even quicker and for problems oftentimes in no ways caused by them.
They have to deal with people only honouring their own wishes, with policies that would never be a fit. They came up with their own: take all the time you want. All the way you want. I will make sure to fire you if you aren't providing value rather than chase your hours and time taken off.
Note: I'm not a manager. will never be one. I simply have a bit of compassion for their job: they are tasked to make other people get the work done.
Hypothetically, what if this individual was taking 12 weeks PTO and were underperforming? Would your business encourage them to take less leave next year to perform better? How much leave would be 'too much' for them to get back on track?
The thing is all of that requires a lot of trust in both directions, as you pretty much said. If I am a candidate for your company, how do I know that trust is there?
Recently I interviewed for a company which had unlimited PTO. They marketted this to me as some fantastic perk, and then when I got the contract they had a clause which said that they ask people to only take 'reasonable' amounts of time off. I asked them to define what is 'reasonable' and they could not. At that point, all of my red flags were waving and I walked away.
1. How to actually manage people.
Snarky I admit, but in 2023 this is a true statement for a lot of people.
The point is that good tools in the hand of bad managers can be used for oppressive behavior and not as a means of reward. This is one of them.
"Unlimited PTO" is PR-style spin on the loss of that compensation; you're being fleeced by your employer.
When you leave a company with PTO where you worked your ass off and never took any vacation, you're cut a check for that unused PTO.
When you leave a company with "unlimited PTO" after doing the same, you get nothing.
Edit: according to some comments, this is state-specific. The above applies to CA.
This is objectively false for most of the United States. Plenty of states do not require this, and plenty more have loopholes that allow employers to avoid paying out PTO if specified in the employment agreement.
It's also the case that PTO is always capped. So you are forced to use it, meaning the maximum amount you could be paid out is a fairly small fixed amount. Unused PTO above the cap is literally wasted, and used PTO is already part of your salary.
I think I'd get paid for unused PTO if I quit or was fired, but I couldn't accumulate more than something like 5 weeks worth.
I'd love to work for a company that had both unlimited and required PTO. If you don't take enough days off for say six months, they force you to take a week or two off.
No one I have ever heard of gets cut a check for unused time et the end of the year. It's when you leave (for any reason) in most states you are supposed to be paid out for it. Not true for unlimited PTO.
About 2 years later, they decided to flip us to 'unlimited PTO' and put that typical HR BS spin on it.
That was the last straw for me, after a couple other little 'f u' changes (once a year 401k match, for example). Cashed out my PTO and went elsewhere.
A few years in, executives abruptly told everyone they were switching to "unlimited PTO" and everyone's accrued PTO would be erased "since it's no longer necessary, take as much vacation as you want."
Sales/marketing depts celebrated.
My team in engineering flipped out since none of us had ever used any PTO, and knew there were some sizable checks waiting for our exit. I ended up telling leadership if they pull this erasing shit, which is probably illegal, I quit immediately and will be in tomorrow to interview and renegotiate compensation if they like. Everyone received checks for their unused PTO that week.
They still switched to unlimited PTO, which us in engineering never really got to use. In a startup it's a race against the runway running out while you're still building the plane, nobody has time for PTO, and they knew this.
It also prevents everyone taking off at the end of the year. They didn’t stockpile vacation because they didn’t need to acrue it.
Only 5 states require this. Most states allow companies to choose what to do with unused PTO, and many, (surprise!) choose not to pay it out.
Between the protection of owning inventions created on your own time, and getting paid for unused PTO, my state (CA) sounds pretty great for a tech person working in startups.
The benefit of unlimited PTO (FTO) is only a benefit if you take it.
I've had FTO for the last five years and I will never go back to 15/20 days of PTO.
In most cases it is dependent on the managers approval as well so it rarely ever (again, anecdotally based on my experiences) results in more PTO that you would have had and often results in less.
It also creates a bit of a situation internally where people feel guilty or are shamed (sometimes even by other peers not managers) for using too much.
On the flip side, at least you don't have that "I don't want to use my PTO incase there is an emergency" and "I'll go in sick to avoid using a sick day" effect.
On this note though...
> of working at a company without formal time off tracking.
No company doesn't have formal tracking. They are most certainly tracking it closely. There just isn't a defined ceiling in the system.
Disclaimer: I'm a bit biased since it bit me. My employer switched to unlimited PTO without warning and previously had all the vacation days accrue on Jan 1st (and no carry-over) so literally if I left Dec 31st I would have gotten paid out 4 weeks (since I barely took any time off this year) but I left after the policy took effect so I didn't get paid anything. So I'm a bit bitter.
1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34340973
It worked, more people took time off and there was less burnout+turnover.
The open-ended nature of “unlimited” makes me think it really means “guilt-based” time off, skewing to less time than I might take if it was included in a contract.
Have only recently started considering employed work again after many years of freelance and contract work and it’s made me really cold on the idea simply because it smells of more of the bullquick I wanted to get away from in the first place.
This is exactly my experience. The last company I worked for with unlimited PTO did everything to prevent folks from using it.
It's one of many negative signals I look for. I interviewed at a firm once that was proud that their cafeteria offered "free breakfast, lunch, and dinner", which sounded great until you realized they expected all employees would be working there through breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
I should note that I'm definitely right-of-the-bell-curve on this. I very intentionally decided to enjoy the perk. My employer was cool about it, but I suspect it's because my productivity is also above average.
I should also mention that I think this long vacation time does wonders for my productivity on the job, and that most Americans I've encountered under-estimate both the extent to which disconnecting from work is important, and how long it takes to truly disconnect.
In sum, I think unlimited PTO can be an incredible perk, but you have to pay very careful attention to the company culture, and be prepared to leave if it's not what you expected.