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Posted by u/noevilcorp 4 years ago
Are there any good companies anymore?
I’m not an idealist considering becoming a volunteer or take a significant pay cut to work on a specific cause, but I don’t want my OKRs to be tied to things that actively makes the world what I consider a worse place. I don’t want my salary to increase the more “whales” we catch, whether that’s an online casino, an addictive mobile game or a crypto currency.

I’m concerned about the environment but I don’t consider myself to have very radical political views in general. These are areas I’d want to avoid. What’s left? What areas could I pursue that are also potentially doing interesting things online?

- AdTech. Most obviously the known harm some social media can cause to democracy by fueling rage, but also systematic economic problems related to e-commerce below. - Most e-commerce. Trying to get people to buy material things they don’t need. Bad for the environment. - Crypto. Companies fall into one of 3 categories: terrible for the environment, a Ponzi scheme, or neutral but legitimizing or encouraging projects in the previous two categories. - FinTech/e-commerce platforms. Trying to get people to buy stuff they can’t afford, on credit, and don’t need. Bad for the environment and society. - Gambling. Duh. - Gaming with in-app-purchasing. Exploiting people prone to addiction or with low impulse control. Immoral and bad for society. - Fossil-heavy industries. Air travel, booking and similar. We need to fly occasionally, but I now celebrate when flying is reduced. I don’t want a bonus to change that.

I’m not judging anyone, I’ve worked with several of the above myself. I just want to do things differently after 15 years.

This is not a discussion thread about my claims above, I respect if you consider them ridiculous, but we’re not very likely to have a fruitful discussion on this particular topic.

therealcamino · 4 years ago
Anything tools- or infrastructure-related. Networking. Operating systems. Compilers. EDA. Education. Public transit. Government work. GIS. Embedded systems. Medical technology. Journalism. Space stuff. Games. There's tons of stuff. What do you love?

But I'm wondering how much not taking a "significant pay cut" is entering into your decision-making, because your list of things in the known universe is pretty narrow. If you decide you can't give up the salary, that's fine, but that's also your answer right there about how highly you value those aspects of your career. Or as The Onion put it, "Facebook Employees Explain Daily Struggle Of Trying To Care About Company's Unethical Practices When Gig So Cushy".

fjhfhgf · 4 years ago
Education is adtech. Thanks to pearson, blackboard, etc.

Full on user tracking and drm focused. It was easier coding gaming anticheaters and copy protection than work on 2018 pearson.

yosito · 4 years ago
I'd agree with other commenters that it might be helpful to adopt a more flexible moral framework. That being said, I can identify with your struggle, as I've often felt the same way. I've pursued the route of working at many different non-profits. Currently working at a non-profit focused on climate change. The thing is, every place I've ever worked, within a few weeks, I see behind the curtain and find something to be unhappy about. No company or organization is perfectly good, and I don't think you should attach your sense of morality too closely to the company you work for. Focus on being a good, moral person in the direct interactions you have with others. Be a good coworker, good partner, good neighbor, etc. The world needs more people who are good to each other these days. If you can do that, it's more important than which company you might happen to work for in 99% of the cases.

As far as choosing a company goes, one strategy that I have is to keep lists of companies that do things I like. When I'm looking for work, I go through those lists to see who's hiring. I've got a list on Twitter of companies I like, a spreadsheet of companies that I like and links to their jobs pages, and when I come across a job posting that looks like a role I might like, I add the link to it as a todo item in a specific category of my todo app, and when I have some time I send off an application, just in case.

ozzythecat · 4 years ago
Just about every company is doing something at some part of their business, which someone can tear into and say is immoral, unfair, unethical, or questionable in some shape or form. And it’s easy to go from an objective discussion to subjectivity. It’s like politics or you can even say it IS politics.

Even the most innovative company that treats its workers fairly and compensates them “well” across the board is probably doing something somewhere that will put someone else out of work.

I’m sort of ranting here, but I feel it’s very easy to go down this rabbit hole of complaining about X or Y or spreading negativity, and even on HN, we seem to spend quite a bit of time painting things in large brush strokes and labeling just about anything anyone is doing as being nefarious or having some ulterior motive.

I can’t say this is really productive.

smt88 · 4 years ago
The logical conclusion of your comment is that all companies are equally harmful (or that any attempt at distinguishing between them is pointless), which is blatantly untrue.

There's is a huge difference in the harm created by someone working on, say, Jira vs. someone building interactive cigarette ads that subtly appeal to children.

There are also lots of companies much more evil than most: Facebook is the most obvious example.

There are companies that aren't particularly evil at all, like the ones working on carbon capture tech.

ozzythecat · 4 years ago
>There are companies that aren't particularly evil at all, like the ones working on carbon capture tech.

Does a company's product or service determine whether they're evil or not evil? What if the carbon capture tech company builds something great for the environment, but has dependencies on a supplier that uses exploited labor in the developing world? What if that same carbon capture company has a "significant" wage gap between the average employee and the executive level?

It's interesting you pointed out that Facebook is evil, but by default, a carbon capture company couldn't possibly be evil "at all".

And that speaks to my point – your definition of evil is based on your set of beliefs, which I'll simply refer to as your politics. It's not necessarily "objective", no matter how hard you believe it is.

>The logical conclusion of your comment is that all companies are equally harmful (or that any attempt at distinguishing between them is pointless), which is blatantly untrue.

No, that's actually not what I'm saying at all.

KmVFIz · 4 years ago
It's *il*logical to conclude that because nowhere was it said that they are *equally* harmful.

What you *can* conclude is that all companies are harmful in some aspect.

beej71 · 4 years ago
Some ideas:

* What would you be proud to be remembered by after you die? I worked in adtech for a long time. No one is proud of me for that.

* There is a lot of unrealized potential in edtech. I work in education now. If you want to add millions--or even billions--of dollars to future GDP, education is the place to be. Look for an effective company.

* Pay is only worth so much. The last two jobs I took involved significant paycuts, and it was worth every penny to do something I felt was worthwhile for hours that didn't destroy the rest of my life. Never been happier. YMMV, of course.

passivate · 4 years ago
IMO, at any company, you will be directly or indirectly providing capital support to AdTech/E-Commerce/Fossil-fuel industries at some level. Its highly unlikely you'll find a company or a trade that doesn't have to advertise its products/services, and/or doesn't need shipping/material/transport/etc. I don't find your claims to be ridiculous, its just that the world is a shitty place - for an idealist. IMO, Its best to frame things as leaving the world a better place, rather than finding that one job that grants you immunity from the evil stuff.
abernard1 · 4 years ago
> I don't find your claims to be ridiculous, its just that the world is a shitty place.

If there were ever a misanthropic worldview, this is it.

To be alive in the year 2021 and think that all is bad or worse than some halcyon prior age is, if not ridiculous, horrifying.

If you and OP are not familiar with anything you feel is worthwhile to work on as a company, then I pity anyone who has to be around you. My advice to OP is to figure out why he/she is unable to see enough good in the world and has to ask HN for where that value is.

passivate · 4 years ago
I don't really get what the point of your comment was?

>To be alive in the year 2021 and think that all is bad or worse than some halcyon prior age is, if not ridiculous, horrifying.

and think that [..] -> is your own assumption. I don't think this. Now that you know, maybe we can have a more positive conversation.

>My advice to OP is to figure out why he/she is unable to see enough good in the world and has to ask HN for where that value is.

'Figure it out' is not good advice in any situation. Its along the lines of "If you can't see why you're wrong then its your fault".

blablabla123 · 4 years ago
> at any company, you will be directly or indirectly providing capital support to AdTech/E-Commerce/Fossil-fuel industries at some level.

At many industries you won't. But it can be quite an effort to find such jobs - and of course succeeding at the interview unless salary/location are suboptimal.

passivate · 4 years ago
Honest question - Can you provide some examples?
wmf · 4 years ago
I do infrastructure and there are plenty of companies at that layer that don't seem particularly evil: Cloudflare, Tailscale, and Oxide come to mind. In general B2B companies should avoid most of your objectionable business models.
Nextgrid · 4 years ago
A significant amount of B2B powers the bad things the OP mentioned.
parsimo2010 · 4 years ago
At some level every productive job enables bad things to happen. Farmers grow food that allows people to eat and code up ransomware. So at some point you have to decide that you are satisfied with your job being far enough away from the people directly doing bad things, and also satisfied that your job helps people do some good things as well.
jacobr · 4 years ago
There’s a difference between for example killing animals for sport, for food, or by not taking enough precaution to avoid it (e.g. sweeping the road for bugs before walking). The agency matters - if your salary is explicitly tied to bad outcomes, or if it happens to benefit from them, by proxy.
xikrib · 4 years ago
In my opinion, the implied framework of morality is bit too simplistic to arrive at a meaningful answer. Good and Bad are not objective outcomes that can be 'caused' by OKRs. Why not try to recognize the inherent balance of good / bad in all things and then focus on being a better person?

Advertising: Bad to advertise lies, good to advertise truth E-commerce: Bad to sell consumption, good to sell solution Crypto: Bad for the environment, good for personal empowerment Finance: Bad for irresponsible spenders, good for people with low assets relative to cashflow Drugs, gambling, etc: Bad for the long run, good for the short run.

Even God, a construction meant to represent pure goodness, is bad to half of yall

KyeRussell · 4 years ago
I work in edtech. We don’t do anything sketchy, and the pay is good. I’m not SV though, so different pay expectations. Anyone that thinks they deserve SV developer tier pay for writing code without doing anything sketchy is almost certainly deluded anyway.