Canada is benefiting substantially from the recent US immigration policies. My Ai team at Microsoft Canada was stacked with talent, all immigrants, and most expressed to me that they would have “normally gone to the US.”
I don’t have to remind this community of the laundry list of tech giants started by immigrants. However, if anyone outside the US is reading this we’d love to have you in Canada. Come here, please.
I’ve been thinking about going to Canada for a long while, and this might sound silly but I was wondering, do people on HN who have immigrated to Canada arrange a lot ahead of time like doing interviews with companies via teleconferencing? Or do you go there to meet people in person first and to investigate opportunities? Or something else?
And when you did go, did you get a job at the company you thought you were going to work for, or did you have to interview with other companies instead?
Furthermore, has anyone here had the misfortune of trying to immigrate but ending up not finding work and having to cancel their immigration plans? If so, what were your experiences like and what would you do different this time?
I’ve seen all of the above. Not specifically with Canada, but otherwise. A lot depends on your personal situation and priorities.
Do you like to go there now, knowing nothing and no one and have a bit of an adventure finding a home and a job? Or do you have dependents and want the safety off having sorted out all the essentials?
Some people start from a hostel with a laptop in a backpack. Some people buy a house and sign an employment contract before the move.
Have a way to support yourself before you go. Either comfortably on savings or through remote work freelancing. That way you have way less risk of either having to cancel because of financials or get exploited by a bad employer.
The current approval time for residency applications is 49 months.
I'm sure it's less for straight-up worker visas, though.
EDIT: I was not sufficiently precise. I'm not speaking of Express Entry / skills-based applications here. If you have a high score in the CRS system, you are eligible for other programs which may be much faster.
According to IRCC, 80% of Express Entry applications for permanent residency are approved on less than 6 months [1].
There are many different residency programs, some of which take longer than others, but the Express Entry program is probably the default option for most HN readers.
wow. A decade ago Canada specifically targeted H1Bs promising 6 months special fast trek instead of the typical 18 back then. Interesting why such a change since then - too many applicants and/or budget cuts?
Edit in response to the comment below: i'm talking about permanent residency - the points, etc - not just work visa.
USA-ian in Canada. I do IT (network engineering) remotely for a US/global F500.
It is pretty straight-up for worker visas, honestly.
Permanent Residency (PR) only matters if you want to stay. There are short term (2) year work permits available, Express Entry permits if you're young-ish and have skills and degrees.
There is also the NAFTA "TN visa" which is just for US/CAN/MEX which is basically one you apply for at the border if you have a valid job offer. It's good for 3 years, can be renewed an unlimited number of times, but it's not a path to PR. As in, you'll have to move to another visa and then follow the steps to get PR that way... but it's quick and easy, and is a decent idea if you don't want to live here forever but do want to do something different for a while.
You could also go to school or marry a local.
There are also a few other more obscure work permits, like Provincial Nomination -- the province needs jobs filled, often in rural areas, so they'll sponsor for somethings. Often these are surprising, as in I knew someone who got sponsored to be a barber in rural AB.
There are also "investor" visas -- aka buying your way in at around 400k -- and a start-up visa, though that requires funding from a handful of approved start-up/VC related groups in Canada. I know tons of folks with a PR, all of whom came in different ways, but I don't know any who did the start-up visa :/
Also keep in mind that the CAD is tied heavily to oil prices, and that salaries in STEM are just, all around, not as high as the US. I'm in AB, and compared to the 2 states that I used to live in the most (VA and WA) the taxes are crazy high -- but they're the lowest in Canada. Investing rules (the dreaded PFIC) and cross-border taxes are also a PITA, and are ones that never really came up when I lived other places overseas.
I could go back to NoVA or Greater Seattle and get a 30-50k USD pay raise... and if the US wasn't under the thumb of Trump, I'd seriously consider it.
Are other countries even allowing US citizens in right now? It was my understanding that we’re pretty much banned from the rest of the world due to our batshit insane Covid response.
Depending on your specific situation, you may be eligible to apply for permanent residency directly from the US. The process could take as little as 6 months and you would enter Canada as a permanent resident. You would not need a job offer or employer sponsorship for this.
If you are not eligible for that, you could be eligible to apply for and receive a work permit at the border provided that you have secured professional work in Canada beforehand.
If you know Daniel, you know that this is one of the stupidest things the US government could possibly do regarding immigration. Daniel is literally one of the most brilliant computer programmers alive today. He created cURL:
Speaking of "blocking... Fleetwood Mac," a number of hip hop and rap artists have been denied entry to Canada due to their criminal records. For instance:
> Entry to Canada may be a challenge to those with a record of criminal conviction, including celebrities looking to perform in Canada. Many rappers, including DMX, The Game, Lil Wayne, Coolio and 50 Cent, have been denied entry to Canada and unable to attend their scheduled performances. [0]
Of course, one can be denied entry to many countries with a felony record, but a conviction need not be a felony in the home country for Canada to use it as reason for denial. If the offense would be considered an "indictable offense" (the rough equivalent of a felony) in Canada, then they will deny. Among other things, IIRC, DUI is considered an indictable offense, which causes issues for a number of celebrities.
> Tar and curl are staples in a developer’s toolbox; beginning today, you’ll find these tools are available from the command-line for all SKUs of Windows. And yes, they're the same tools you've come to know and love!
Running curl -V on my Windows gives me this. Is it wrong?
To me it's just another explicit example of how the current government structure is obsolete.
And I know people will say that it's just the current government is a bad apple. But why do they have the ability to screw things so fundamentally here anyway? And if people think they are going to supposedly get a "good" government next time, I can pretty much guarantee if you like the next government you will hate the one after it. Because it swings between extremes.
> Daniel is literally one of the most brilliant computer programmers alive today.
I’m sure he’s a great guy and he surely doesn’t deserve this treatment, but “one of the most brilliant computer programmers alive today”?
Donald Knuth is one of the most brilliant computer programmers alive today... If Daniels claim to fame is curl then I’d say that makes him good at forecasting demand for an open source utility, or something along those lines.
This is absurd. I'm a US citizen, so I'll contact my Congressman to have his staff look into it. I don't have any special power, any US citizen can contact their congressman, but maybe that will kick-start something.
Unless you're a billionaire who can actually get a Congressperson on the phone, you're burning cycles. They've got an army of staff that do nothing but write stock replies, print and sign documents with stamps and mail them back to constituents.
That's what involvement in our government has become in America - a bunch of people shouting into an endless void, and the people in power doing more or less whatever fits their needs most at that particular moment.
> They've got an army of staff that do nothing but write stock replies, print and sign documents with stamps and mail them back to constituents.
While this is certainly true and billionaires have far more sway than a random citizen, I don't think it's quite as dire as you say. I've heard from multiple people who work in politics that letters like these are tracked by the staff and the tallies considered by the representative. Which all makes some sense because for every person motivated to write a letter there are likely hundreds or thousands who feel the same but didn't bother to write.
I wouldn't spend a bunch of time writing a finely crafted letter, but a short personal note sent to a Congressperson is very quick process and has some chance of mattering. I've done this a handful of times and there's usually a form on their website that makes it all quite easy.
Citizen letters aren't going to counteract major lobbyists, but a lot of issues that Congress handles don't really have entrenched financial interests on either side. It's in an elected reps self interest to keep their constituents happy and scoring some easy wins in response to citizen complaints is well within their wheelhouse.
The funny thing is that if he had gone work as a temporary worker in Canada, two years would have given him permanent resident status. Then two more years he can become a citizen, then he would be free to enter USA. This would be faster and better solution overall. But anyways, I don't think it is ever worth the trouble going there.
Hmm, becoming Canadian just to enter the USA seems like a difficult and roundabout way of going about it....
I'm reading Daniel's page and it seems to me that a number of commenters here are confusing his intent, which is "visiting", not "immigration". I've noticed that in the US, people tend to use the word "immigrate" for anyone trying to get into the country, whereas the word immigrate has a much more specific meaning. Technically, to "immigrate" means to apply for permanent residency -- i.e. to stay in a country indefinitely, and to live and work here. That is decidedly NOT what he's trying to do.
(I guess it's fair since most people don't have actual experience with immigration, so the term is a little fuzzy.)
Daniel is trying to "visit" the US temporarily and leave after. The long and the short of it seems to be:
1) Daniel is citizen of Sweden.
2) Under US law, citizens of Sweden qualify for the Visa-Waiver-Program (VWP), which means they do not require a visa to visit the U.S. for tourism, business or transit.
3) A few years ago, the US (and other countries, including Canada) introduced an additional requirement as a security measure: electronic pre-authorization or ESTA in case of the US [1] (which incidentally is NOT a visa). This means citizens of countries (in the VWP) who could previously enter the US with nothing but a passport, now had to apply for an ESTA online (which takes anywhere between 3 seconds to 3 days to get approved). Again the ESTA is not a visa -- only a pre-auth. Citizens of these countries still do not require a visa to enter the U.S.
4) Daniel has applied for ESTAs many times, and was approved many times before, but the last time he applied, he was denied.
5) When a VWP citizen is denied an ESTA and still wishes to visit the US, they have the option of applying for a regular visitor visa the old-fashioned way, at a US consulate/embassy. This is a lengthier and more bureaucratic process -- which presumably involves more thorough vetting.
6) Daniel still hasn't received his visitor visa.
(Side note: the only 2 countries whose citizens have "visa-free" access to the U.S. are Canada and Bermuda [2]. Citizens of these countries do not require ESTAs).
I wasn't suggesting that a Congressman directly go to bat, though that would be awesome. Any US citizen can contact their Congressional Representatives' Office to request that some bureaucratic problem be resolved, and the Congressional office directly contacts the relevant organization within the executive branch. I live near Washington DC, and it's just part of the process.
I've had a phone call, and email, and a follow-up email from my congressman's office to discuss this case. Again, that's no guarantee that the result will be what we want, but there is clearly traction.
Again it's not like my congressman is talking to me, but I was not expecting that. For Congressional staff this is just part of the job.
I had a friend who worked in constituent services for a US Senator, and...yeah, if you can get someone's attention in that setting, they can make stuff happen that otherwise would have fallen through the cracks. Been awhile since I heard stories, but one came to mind was someone getting the right visa for his bride in time for the wedding. Another one had to do with getting some kind of medal for a soldier.
Not sure if doing things on someone else's behalf can be as effective, but it almost certainly won't hurt to ask.
I had a co-worker whose wife was applying for US citizenship. In the middle of processing her paperwork the immigration department decided they needed to paint the office. The story goes - and I believe her lawyer told her this - the immigrations employees went home one day and the painters came in and covered all of the desks with plastic. They then took the next two years to paint the facility. At the end of two years the tarps came off and the workers returned - with all of their paperwork from two years prior exactly where it had been left.
Sounds crazy but is somehow believable. I had a similar experience last time I was at the New York DMV where I handed an agent my papers, he looked at them for a bit then got up and left without saying a word, he went and had lunch for an hour, then came back as-if nothing had happened. I had twenty plus people standing behind me in the same queue. The other queues around us kept moving, we all stood there for an hour while the guy ate.
The headline is odd, this has been going on for 870 days, as documented on his site. It looks like the last update is from 2019. The headline reads like he cant come in for the next 870 days.
> The headline is odd, this has been going on for 870 days, as documented on his site. It looks like the last update is from 2019. The headline reads like he cant come in for the next 870 days.
Maybe adding "for the last 870 days" would clarify it a bit.
I remember at some point a few years ago realizing that “hey, I’m more nervous, hassled, scrutinized and having my privacy compromised entering the USA than mainland China”.
That change happened in not that many years. And it is not to say that China improved in any significant manner.
It’s been a couple of years pre-COVID that I now avoid (and haven’t been) traveling to or through the USA, a country Ive always otherwise enjoyed my stay in.
> It's getting to the point where one must ask why someone wealthy enough to fly internationally would want the hassle of entering the US.
Sometimes it's the only sensible option - e.g. as far as I know (the Kiwis I know all go via LAX), London to Auckland via LAX is cheaper, quicker, easier, etc. than going a non-US route like Singapore.
I mean it's not like it's so important to visit the US anyhow. Their national parks are great, but that's about it. And there's plenty of nature elsewhere. Cities are dangerous, expensive and mostly rather ugly.
I wouldn't cry if I was in his shoes. It's an annoyance, not really a great loss.
Because they want to visit specific people in the US. Unfortunately for the US, this is getting solved by attractive people leaving the US, and people who do have the right to visit are choosing to hold conferences in more-free countries.
One of the most common reason to be denied an ESTA of a Visa to the United States is because of a criminal conviction or a criminal charge in your home country. I'm not saying this is the case here, but that is one of the most common reasons.
Then again, it might be just because he's a "hacker".
> Then again, it might be just because he's a "hacker".
Given the number of non-US people successfully traveling to BlackHat and other explicitly "hacking" conferences... This is not the most likely explanation.
Most countries don't give the USA carte blanche access to their citizens criminal history unless it is in their interests to declare (I base this on observations of people who have past criminal convictions yet still get ESTA approvals and travel to the USA). However, the USA may have become aware of something that they previously were not aware of.
Why are all the comments here about immigration? Daniel Stenberg is trying to visit, not move to the United States.
Having said that, I'm not sure why this is being posted here today, since there haven't been any updates since his two-years-in blog post some months back.
Readit News
I don’t have to remind this community of the laundry list of tech giants started by immigrants. However, if anyone outside the US is reading this we’d love to have you in Canada. Come here, please.
And when you did go, did you get a job at the company you thought you were going to work for, or did you have to interview with other companies instead?
Furthermore, has anyone here had the misfortune of trying to immigrate but ending up not finding work and having to cancel their immigration plans? If so, what were your experiences like and what would you do different this time?
Do you like to go there now, knowing nothing and no one and have a bit of an adventure finding a home and a job? Or do you have dependents and want the safety off having sorted out all the essentials?
Some people start from a hostel with a laptop in a backpack. Some people buy a house and sign an employment contract before the move.
Have a way to support yourself before you go. Either comfortably on savings or through remote work freelancing. That way you have way less risk of either having to cancel because of financials or get exploited by a bad employer.
I'm sure it's less for straight-up worker visas, though.
EDIT: I was not sufficiently precise. I'm not speaking of Express Entry / skills-based applications here. If you have a high score in the CRS system, you are eligible for other programs which may be much faster.
There are many different residency programs, some of which take longer than others, but the Express Entry program is probably the default option for most HN readers.
[1] https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/se... economic immigration > skilled worker (federal) > I haven't applied yet
wow. A decade ago Canada specifically targeted H1Bs promising 6 months special fast trek instead of the typical 18 back then. Interesting why such a change since then - too many applicants and/or budget cuts?
Edit in response to the comment below: i'm talking about permanent residency - the points, etc - not just work visa.
It is pretty straight-up for worker visas, honestly.
Permanent Residency (PR) only matters if you want to stay. There are short term (2) year work permits available, Express Entry permits if you're young-ish and have skills and degrees.
There is also the NAFTA "TN visa" which is just for US/CAN/MEX which is basically one you apply for at the border if you have a valid job offer. It's good for 3 years, can be renewed an unlimited number of times, but it's not a path to PR. As in, you'll have to move to another visa and then follow the steps to get PR that way... but it's quick and easy, and is a decent idea if you don't want to live here forever but do want to do something different for a while.
You could also go to school or marry a local.
There are also a few other more obscure work permits, like Provincial Nomination -- the province needs jobs filled, often in rural areas, so they'll sponsor for somethings. Often these are surprising, as in I knew someone who got sponsored to be a barber in rural AB.
There are also "investor" visas -- aka buying your way in at around 400k -- and a start-up visa, though that requires funding from a handful of approved start-up/VC related groups in Canada. I know tons of folks with a PR, all of whom came in different ways, but I don't know any who did the start-up visa :/
Also keep in mind that the CAD is tied heavily to oil prices, and that salaries in STEM are just, all around, not as high as the US. I'm in AB, and compared to the 2 states that I used to live in the most (VA and WA) the taxes are crazy high -- but they're the lowest in Canada. Investing rules (the dreaded PFIC) and cross-border taxes are also a PITA, and are ones that never really came up when I lived other places overseas.
I could go back to NoVA or Greater Seattle and get a 30-50k USD pay raise... and if the US wasn't under the thumb of Trump, I'd seriously consider it.
can attest to that
level of talent is insane
Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal are all blowing up
thank you US for sending all the best techies to Canada
If you are not eligible for that, you could be eligible to apply for and receive a work permit at the border provided that you have secured professional work in Canada beforehand.
https://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/crs-tool.asp
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/co... (section 3)
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Dead Comment
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CURL
A program so ubiquitous that it comes preinstalled on every mainstream OS, even Windows.
It has bindings for Rust, D, PHP and God knows how many other languages. It would be the equivalent of blocking a Senator, or say, Fleetwood Mac.
I guess people just don't give a shit about programmers.
> Entry to Canada may be a challenge to those with a record of criminal conviction, including celebrities looking to perform in Canada. Many rappers, including DMX, The Game, Lil Wayne, Coolio and 50 Cent, have been denied entry to Canada and unable to attend their scheduled performances. [0]
Of course, one can be denied entry to many countries with a felony record, but a conviction need not be a felony in the home country for Canada to use it as reason for denial. If the offense would be considered an "indictable offense" (the rough equivalent of a felony) in Canada, then they will deny. Among other things, IIRC, DUI is considered an indictable offense, which causes issues for a number of celebrities.
---
[0]: https://www.duicanadaentry.com/news/rappers-with-criminal-in...
https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/containers/tar-and-cu...
> Tar and curl are staples in a developer’s toolbox; beginning today, you’ll find these tools are available from the command-line for all SKUs of Windows. And yes, they're the same tools you've come to know and love!
Running curl -V on my Windows gives me this. Is it wrong?
And I know people will say that it's just the current government is a bad apple. But why do they have the ability to screw things so fundamentally here anyway? And if people think they are going to supposedly get a "good" government next time, I can pretty much guarantee if you like the next government you will hate the one after it. Because it swings between extremes.
I’m sure he’s a great guy and he surely doesn’t deserve this treatment, but “one of the most brilliant computer programmers alive today”?
Donald Knuth is one of the most brilliant computer programmers alive today... If Daniels claim to fame is curl then I’d say that makes him good at forecasting demand for an open source utility, or something along those lines.
That's what involvement in our government has become in America - a bunch of people shouting into an endless void, and the people in power doing more or less whatever fits their needs most at that particular moment.
While this is certainly true and billionaires have far more sway than a random citizen, I don't think it's quite as dire as you say. I've heard from multiple people who work in politics that letters like these are tracked by the staff and the tallies considered by the representative. Which all makes some sense because for every person motivated to write a letter there are likely hundreds or thousands who feel the same but didn't bother to write.
I wouldn't spend a bunch of time writing a finely crafted letter, but a short personal note sent to a Congressperson is very quick process and has some chance of mattering. I've done this a handful of times and there's usually a form on their website that makes it all quite easy.
Citizen letters aren't going to counteract major lobbyists, but a lot of issues that Congress handles don't really have entrenched financial interests on either side. It's in an elected reps self interest to keep their constituents happy and scoring some easy wins in response to citizen complaints is well within their wheelhouse.
I'm reading Daniel's page and it seems to me that a number of commenters here are confusing his intent, which is "visiting", not "immigration". I've noticed that in the US, people tend to use the word "immigrate" for anyone trying to get into the country, whereas the word immigrate has a much more specific meaning. Technically, to "immigrate" means to apply for permanent residency -- i.e. to stay in a country indefinitely, and to live and work here. That is decidedly NOT what he's trying to do.
(I guess it's fair since most people don't have actual experience with immigration, so the term is a little fuzzy.)
Daniel is trying to "visit" the US temporarily and leave after. The long and the short of it seems to be:
1) Daniel is citizen of Sweden.
2) Under US law, citizens of Sweden qualify for the Visa-Waiver-Program (VWP), which means they do not require a visa to visit the U.S. for tourism, business or transit.
3) A few years ago, the US (and other countries, including Canada) introduced an additional requirement as a security measure: electronic pre-authorization or ESTA in case of the US [1] (which incidentally is NOT a visa). This means citizens of countries (in the VWP) who could previously enter the US with nothing but a passport, now had to apply for an ESTA online (which takes anywhere between 3 seconds to 3 days to get approved). Again the ESTA is not a visa -- only a pre-auth. Citizens of these countries still do not require a visa to enter the U.S.
4) Daniel has applied for ESTAs many times, and was approved many times before, but the last time he applied, he was denied.
5) When a VWP citizen is denied an ESTA and still wishes to visit the US, they have the option of applying for a regular visitor visa the old-fashioned way, at a US consulate/embassy. This is a lengthier and more bureaucratic process -- which presumably involves more thorough vetting.
6) Daniel still hasn't received his visitor visa.
(Side note: the only 2 countries whose citizens have "visa-free" access to the U.S. are Canada and Bermuda [2]. Citizens of these countries do not require ESTAs).
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_System_for_Travel_A...
[2] https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/tourism-...
I mean, I guess their office could push the gov't for an actual decision, but I can't see them fighting for approval.
Again it's not like my congressman is talking to me, but I was not expecting that. For Congressional staff this is just part of the job.
Not sure if doing things on someone else's behalf can be as effective, but it almost certainly won't hurt to ask.
Sounds crazy but is somehow believable. I had a similar experience last time I was at the New York DMV where I handed an agent my papers, he looked at them for a bit then got up and left without saying a word, he went and had lunch for an hour, then came back as-if nothing had happened. I had twenty plus people standing behind me in the same queue. The other queues around us kept moving, we all stood there for an hour while the guy ate.
Maybe adding "for the last 870 days" would clarify it a bit.
Looks like posting here has prompted an update.
It's been bad since 9/11, but it's insane now. I can't imagine the TSA is treating people better than they did pre-Trump.
Maybe things will be better next year.
That change happened in not that many years. And it is not to say that China improved in any significant manner.
It’s been a couple of years pre-COVID that I now avoid (and haven’t been) traveling to or through the USA, a country Ive always otherwise enjoyed my stay in.
CBP is the border police.
[0] - except for perhaps a few airports where you pre-clear and are treated as a domestic flight (Dublin, Toronto, maybe others)
Sometimes it's the only sensible option - e.g. as far as I know (the Kiwis I know all go via LAX), London to Auckland via LAX is cheaper, quicker, easier, etc. than going a non-US route like Singapore.
I wouldn't cry if I was in his shoes. It's an annoyance, not really a great loss.
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This country is in a bad way.
But since Trump I really feel on balance that I'd much rather go to many other places in the world instead.
Maybe not China/Russia though...
Then again, it might be just because he's a "hacker".
Given the number of non-US people successfully traveling to BlackHat and other explicitly "hacking" conferences... This is not the most likely explanation.
Having said that, I'm not sure why this is being posted here today, since there haven't been any updates since his two-years-in blog post some months back.