Readit News logoReadit News
Posted by u/AndrewBissell 6 years ago
Ask HN: How is your PPP loan application coming along?
My wife and I run a small winery with about $400,000 in annual sales and a monthly payroll of about $4,000. The COVID-19 situation dealt a blow to our sales and cash flow so we submitted an application for a PPP loan with Mechanics Bank, where we keep our business checking account. So far, the process has looked like this:

On April 6 we submitted an application to the bank's portal, which included the standard federal form with information like average payroll and headcount.

On April 8 we received an email saying that we needed to submit some additional information, which just turned out to be repetition of payroll information we had already listed on the federal form.

On April 13 we received another email asking us to submit ownership details for any equity holders in our LLC.

It's now April 17 and we have not heard anything back. If I call the bank's number, I get a recording which says they'll process our application as soon as possible and they're unable to provide status updates over the phone.

Now I'm reading reports that the program is already out of money. If this is what's supposed to help small- and medium-sized businesses weather the pandemic, it is not inspiring much confidence. Have others had a similar experience?

ta1679389 · 6 years ago
Throwaway, because I work for a bank doing PPP. First off, I want to say I feel for anyone struggling - I know from my exposure a lot of loans didn't get in. We had random people from all over the bank working nights and weekends trying to get these loans into the SBA. The news didn't do justice how much of a disaster this program was with the SBA. For example during training, the SBA app crashed 11 times while trying to enter one application - and this was after hours. We spent days on the phone trying to get someone to get us access to the SBA's API - no one could help us. In the end, a lot of loans didn't end up getting into the system.

Second off, we're already tooling up for the second round of SBA to get more loans through the system by eliminating a lot of manual processing. So have some hope and contact your reps and senators - we're already getting ready to get loans through once they open up the program again.

ta1587192583 · 6 years ago
Also a throwaway for the same reason.

We are facing the same issues here. We are struggling to even get SBA logins created to add additional manpower to the manual process. I'm curious how paypal was able to push these loans through so quick, I'm assuming they have some API access that is difficult to obtain.

We are also trying to implement some automation for the second round. If you are able to share are you building that or implementing a 3rd party product? We are looking at a few 3rd party apps and have a few hopeful candidates that look like they will help.

achenatx · 6 years ago
Most big banks completely screwed their clients. You can read reddit/r/smallbusiness

1) The SBA was approving PPP submissions in like an hour (rubberstamping).

2) Any delay was 100% your bank. Many banks just didnt get to applications but didnt notify people. Some banks said people were approved (by the bank) but didnt submit those people to the SBA

3) There was a lot of time to submit to intermediaries like paypal. Paypal was turning applications around in 24 hours to funding. There were people that applied on 4/3 with a big bank that didnt get it and people that applied thursday night through paypal that got it

4) Big banks often added additional criteria which made it harder to complete the application. Some big banks were not using the correct calculations

5) Once you have an SBA loan number you are good and money is allocated. Banks have 10 days to disburse the funds

6) The SBA ran out of allocated funds, not all the money has been disbursed.

7) People submitted to multiple lenders and it was fine

Overall I think the program went pretty well and there was plenty of time for people to get applications in. There was obviously working of the system (hedge funds, large restaurant chains, etc) but if you look at the distribution of funds there were still many many small loans.

750K under $150K with an average of $51K

I spent the last 2 weeks doing nothing but reading reports, stats etc about the program to ensure I was able to get it for my team. Lots of people submitted with a big bank and just waited accepting no updates, now are complaining after it is over.

listenallyall · 6 years ago
750,000 loans of $150,000 would use about $112 billion in funds -- less than 1/3rd of the allocated amount. But if, as you stated, the average loan was only $51,000, then these smaller loans comprised a much smaller piece of the total.

The way the statistics are presented is purposefully designed to obfuscate the fact that the vast majority of funds went to large businesses while small ones were very often shut out.

mbreese · 6 years ago
This is definitely one instance where you care less about the average and more about the median (and quartile).
GarrisonPrime · 6 years ago
My business bank (Wells Fargo) didn't even begin taking applications until the day before the money ran out.

My personal bank (Bank of America) flat-out refused to talk to me, since I'd never had a business credit or loan through them.

Quickbooks is apparently planning something, but of course have nothing ready yet.

PayPal never mentioned to me they were an option. I've logged into my business account with them daily since this all began. Not a peep. Not an email. Not a notification anywhere on the page. Nada.

I scoured the SBA page daily - hell, three times a day - checking up on my EIDL application and also looking for any update on them offering PPP. Never saw anything, despite many people asserting like you are that it was there all along and early.

It's like you're from a completely different reality.

ridgeguy · 6 years ago
FWIW, my experiences:

I filed an EIDL partway through on the SBA site Apr 6, got far enough create an account, to save my work and get an application number.

Login UI was gone by April 7 when I went to finish my app. No hint of the UI I'd used one day earlier.

Tried again April 9 - different application interface. Got through primary info input, requested $10K as emergency bistro, received an application number (different from the first number), then the process closed down suddenly. Got two emails from SBA saying my application had been received. There's no way to check status. Still hearing crickets since April 9.

dannyw · 6 years ago
SBA should have just distributed the money directly without overhead.

A year later, we can hire lots of investigators to verify the loans and pursue any fraud.

silencio · 6 years ago
This is pretty infuriating to read when I spent so much fucking time with three different banks and my accountant over three weeks to prep and apply and I’m still unsure what the situation is in my case.

All on top of just keeping my restaurant afloat and keeping my employees safe, while I have a newborn, while the world is on fire and favorite customers come by crying about losing their jobs and fuck, what’s the rainy day fund for if not for commiserating six feet apart after giving them a free burger.

So yeah I guess I just sat on my fat ass for weeks and I shouldn’t be complaining.......?

Dead Comment

manigandham · 6 years ago
The entire purpose of banks is to provide financial services and assistance. There was tremendous confusion, warnings and even outright denial by many financial institutions in aiding businesses that tried to apply.

I find it hard to blame the companies when they did everything right and the banks failed them.

jhwang5 · 6 years ago
I think there's a widespread sentiment in this country where if you get screwed over, it's on you, you should've known better. Everyone just passes the buck.

Well guess what, most people entrusted banks to do the right thing, why the hell else are you paying them for (with your deposits).

hughw · 6 years ago
>I spent the last 2 weeks doing nothing but reading reports, stats etc about the program to ensure I was able to get it for my team. Lots of people submitted with a big bank and just waited accepting no updates, now are complaining after it is over.

Hi. Joe citizen here. Congratulations on your ability to work the system. I'm in the category you deprecate, just a loser needing my big bank to run interference for me and get us our $52k. Our business did not halt and allow me to devote full time to the endeavor. The future will be run by you.

streb-lo · 6 years ago
Yup. Absolute insanity that people think this is OK.
hughw · 6 years ago
Nothing like smug HN downvotes to reinforce the Darwinian message.
curo · 6 years ago
Silicon Valley Bank vs my local bank:

SVB:

  - SVB loses a big check of ours for a week prior to PPP
  - SVB takes 1 week to get their newly developed PPP portal active
  - SVB prioritizes new clients and bigger accounts (allegedly, see Twitter screenshots)
  - Delays and bugs once it's live
Local Bank:

  - Local bank tracks and finds lost check, makes except to deposit
  - Local bank puts out a low-tech, but reliable DocuSign PPP form the day after announcement (and 6 days before SVB's portal taking PPP apps)
  - Local bank prioritizes existing clients 
  - No bugs, you can connect with them in <10 mins to talk to a rep

manigandham · 6 years ago
Silicon Valley Bank is the worst bank I've ever used and we deeply regret ever choosing them. The archaic tech, few physical branches, limited hours, expensive services, and little unique offering other than venture debt makes it a poor choice for the majority of startups. There is nothing "Silicon Valley" about SVB other than their staff salaries being the highest of any public bank.
snazz · 6 years ago
I wonder why Stripe Atlas chose to partner with them for the banking part of their service. It doesn't seem like SVB aligns with Stripe's ethos.
zamalek · 6 years ago
Local credit union: funds appear in the account the next day.
pm_me_ur_fullzz · 6 years ago
"For security reasons, these insecure and buggy features are in fact features, for your protection"

.... but I'm on the phone with you, logged in to my account, reading everything about the account to you that you are asking me for security reasons... the same thing that a hacker would do....

henryw · 6 years ago
What is the local bank?
curo · 6 years ago
First Bank of Colorado (https://www.efirstbank.com/) - I've moved away from CO over a decade ago but kept all my personal banking there. (No affiliation.)
jedberg · 6 years ago
My business account is with Chase.

Applied on the first day they opened their portal, which was a few days after the program started.

Got an error on the second page of the app when I told them I am C Corp, was told the portal wasn't ready for C Corps yet.

Got an email the next day to try again, and did so and it worked.

Got a promissory note automatically at the end of the application which just needed a few bits of info and my payroll worksheet from Gusto.

Was informed this morning that the program was out of money and they would let me know if/when the program had more money to fund the loan.

Oh and through the entire process Chase has stressed that my local banker has no information, no access to the system, and no way to help me, so not even bother trying to talk to them.

treyfitty · 6 years ago
Chase has been horrible all around for the past weeks for even basic business banking. Many links that don’t work, customer service numbers that are incorrect, policies & procedures stated that are incorrect, and escalation processes that add further delays to getting time sensitive decisions like PPP.

I’ve had to spend countless hours for things that took me minutes to do with AmEx + local credit union.

tracker1 · 6 years ago
Yeah, I still have a chase account, but mostly use them for smaller day to day things (also CC). Most of my paycheck and pretty much all my bills go to a local credit union account. Not to mention, when I went to chase, they had ATMs all over, now not so much.
robhunter · 6 years ago
I have two companies.

Both have existing checking + lending relationship with BoA.

Company #1 is 5 years old, Company #2 is 6 months old.

4/3: Both companies applied

4/6: Both companies submitted all required docs

4/8: Received a call about Company #2 - claimed we could only use 2019 payroll to determine size of loan. Incorrect - new co's can use Jan/Feb. Told the rep this. Was told I would received a callback.

4/9: Received a promissory note for Company #1, signed and submitted.

4/10-4/15: Received numerous automated calls + emails asking me to do things I already had done.

4/16: Received a request to update business info for Company #1. Did so. Rep said I should expect deposit of funds in 1-5 days.

Still nothing on Company #2. I am tentative that the $$$ is allocated already as we have been assigned an SBA loan number.

BoA did some things right (opened up first), some things arguably right (as someone who has a previous relationship, I appreciate getting prioritized), and some things terribly (having people take time to give reminders on actions that have already been taken, having no one available to answer questions or provide support, etc.)

jeffmould · 6 years ago
We applied through BoA on the first day as well and never heard a word. All documents are still in Intralinks apparently untouched. Only two things we ever heard from them were the link to upload documents and a call a few days later verifying we were able to upload the documents. Radio silence since then.

I did read somewhere though that their system was looking for specific file names in Intralinks and if you did not have those your application fell through the system. After reading that, I went back yesterday and looked at our docs and one the we had renamed the addendum and template files to remove spaces. I also looked at their instructions (probably should have read them more clearly from the beginning) and it does say in there not to rename files and/or to use specific file names. I am now wondering if that was what caused our application with them to fall to the black hole.

Luckily we had applied through a local bank and received a SBA number. Waiting on final docs now from them.

jrs235 · 6 years ago
As I mentioned elsewhere: This is why an independent and trustworthy Inspector General overseeing and reporting back to Congress and the public is needed. Where did this money go and who got it? Were some people favored or tipped off on how to get through the process?

Deleted Comment

HeyLaughingBoy · 6 years ago
/r/smallbusiness is now pretty much all SMB owners pissed that after doing everything right, their banks are saying there's no money left to disburse.

People are sharpening their pitchfork tines...

mcphilip · 6 years ago
I’ve been wondering if something will act as a catalyst for social unrest, starting on a small scale, and wonder if the PPP could be a tipping point. There have already been reports of LLCs formed just to get free money for the wealthy and well-connected:

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/economy/how-stop-business-l...

I hope the above article is either wrong or misleading, but I do worry a tipping point could be hit that gets people out in the streets in numbers far larger than what was seen in Michigan.

I sense a growing distress at how bleak the situation is in places like here in Austin where relatively few deaths have been reported but countless people with livelihoods ruined.

Hopefully I’m wrong, but even having started prepping earlier than most for this lockdown, I’m still surprised every day how much worse things are getting than I imagined.

jedberg · 6 years ago
I'm not sure how one could form an LLC and get the loan. One of the requirements is that your business had to exist before they started writing the law. I think February 25th was the cutoff but I'm not sure.
wyxuan · 6 years ago
Yep. If you invested money into the stock market via an s Corp you can also apply for the money and I've heard the loans go through
WilliamEdward · 6 years ago
Now just imagine how the workers losing their jobs that don't have savings or loans feel.
colecut · 6 years ago
Won't this create more of those people?
duxup · 6 years ago
Effectively free money offered.... who knew they'd run out!?!!?
manigandham · 6 years ago
The issue is not that the funds ran out but how hard it is to even ask for the money for the small businesses that it was supposed to help.
e15ctr0n · 6 years ago
JPMorgan Chase was able to secure multi-million dollar loans under the PPP for some of its clients that happen to be large chains and foreign corporations:

* Wave Life Sciences, a biotech company incorporated in Singapore, got $7.2 million for the 97% of the company’s work force based in the United States. https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1631574/000119312520...

* Potbelly Sandwich Shop, a chain of 400 restaurants, got $10 million for its 6,000 employees. https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1195734/000119312520...

* Texas Taco Cabana, a chain of 121 Mexican food restaurants, got $10 million https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1534992/000153499220...

* Ruth’s Hospitality Group, a Florida-based steakhouse operator, got $20 million for its 5,700 employees. https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1324272/000156459020...

hkmurakami · 6 years ago
Are the latter two franchises?
kortilla · 6 years ago
Not with 5700 employees. I heard on an interview that restaurant chains got an exemption as long as they had small employee counts at their locations.
20years · 6 years ago
We submitted our app through Chase the morning it opened. Days went by before we heard anything and that was an automated email that basically said they received our app. This morning I got an email stating the program is out of money, but they will keep our app on file for if/when more funds are allocated to it.
jrs235 · 6 years ago
This is why an independent and trustworthy Inspector General overseeing and reporting back to Congress and the public is needed. Where did this money go and who got it? Were some people favored or tipped off on how to get through the process?
nightcracker · 6 years ago
> Where did this money go and who got it?

Call me skeptic but it's likely that banks prioritized applications of companies that have significant debt with the bank. This way the bank can essentially pay itself.

Louis Rossman reported that banks were doing this openly (explicitly saying they only allow applications from existing account holders). They have now removed that but nothing is preventing them from doing it behind closed doors anyways.

Dead Comment

calabin · 6 years ago
Same exact experience. All we've received is a loan reference number.
hughw · 6 years ago
One twist in my case was, the Chase webapp gave me an error page on about page 5 of the wizard interface, where you upload your payroll documentation. The webapp had no state persisted -- any error and you have to start the whole 25-minute process again. I started again at the beginning, but it errored again at the same spot.

Behind the error message I could make out the text of what appeared to be the ordinary final page of the form. The the error pane was a translucent overlay over the functioning form. I opened Chrome debugger, identified the element, and set its style to "display: none". Et voila: the glorious final page of the form, where I was able to tick off several attestations and press "Submit". About 10 hours later, I received the "application received" message.

You're Chase Bank. You have about 3 days to assemble a webapp that will accept bazillions of hits. You won't have any time to shake it down. Why in the name of Salmon P. Chase do you build a javascript-laden behemoth with a slick wizard interface with page transitions, that has a session timer but no persisted saved state (of any use to the user), using XHR file uploads, the combination of all that hot code bound to fail on any browser but Chrome (it failed to get to page 1 using Firefox)?

They could have built a plain old HTML single-page form with a POST action that would upload all the attachments. It could even have had wonderful CSS to support the branding they feel they must have. The whole thing could have run on Apache hosts with a CGI handler. Seriously.