It seems that convenience is an important factor; access to retail in the most populous province is low, so alternative means of access to the good are still in favor (i.e. black market). Purport the bubble is bursting after examining the system when it is functioning in a less constrained way that rivals the current system (i.e. black market).
"This is especially true in Ontario, Canada's most populous province. Red tape and a cap on the number of cannabis retail outlets have made rollout slow. Retail licenses were awarded by lottery, and the province held the number of licenses at 24, to serve a population of 14.5m."
"In December, the Ontario government announced that after a slow and fitful start, the province will open itself up to more cannabis retail. It will do away with the lottery system, the cap on the number of private stores and cancel some pre-qualification requirements."
Summarizing the article; The stock bubble burst. The industry will continue to see retail growth as it carves into the black market. It is limited by fundamental demand towards marijuana in the population which is ok but not as pervasive as alcohol and tobacco.
I personally barely experience any impact of legal marijuana in my life besides smelling it on the street as it isn’t illegal any more. As the article states it isn’t like we became a nation of potheads. I only know 2 people amongst my friends who have made more than one purchase at a retailer.
They don’t even use it recreationally when they are out with us because we are all old enough that we have to drive, work, parent, etc.
My anecdote I think fits with the statistics and the economic availability the article lays out.
ps Future US border guards reading this comment may rejoice at how boring Canada remains. :)
Indeed, countries who legalized cannabis rather saw demand stay stable or even fall (hence why the UN has been advocating to end the "war on drugs" for about two decades now). In fact we have data on alcohol as well in the past century, and clearly prohibition was not correlated with less drinking, more like the opposite.
There's a strong body of studies laying out reasons — the most striking to me being, "if someone indeed has a drug problem, who should take care of them: a cop or a doctor?", implying that people don't even talk to their doctors about illegal substances, for fear of legal consequences, which thus compounds the public health problem; not to mention that the black market is likely to encourage addiction, as well as supply "bad" products.
There's really no argument for a legal solution to drugs, the only proven way to get a healthier population in that regard is from the health / medical angle.
> we are all old enough that we have to drive, work, parent, etc.
That's also part of it: legal things otherwise dangerous are introduced with care to the population (warnings, policies regarding the youth, etc).
This is how, despite the incredible risks it poses, we are able to sell alcohol to the general population and yet contain the risks to a large measure, because we are educated about it and responsible, and we can talk, watch out for others, etc. Granted, it's still the first cause of death on Earth (about equal with tobacco), but it's still a victory given the dangerosity of the product (from a toxicological standpoint, it's the most lethal category, on par with cocaine).
That being said, I hate it when people think it's OK to drink and drive or drink and parent if they remain below the legal maximum. Recreation means that, it's the opposite of "duty": one should not drink or smoke at all if they are expected to be responsible for others, especially children. Get that psychoactive substance (beer, wine, cannabis...) when you're really only responsible for yourself. The legal limit, again, in matters of health (here, your ability to be lucid and with good reflexes) is only indicative, a tolerance for those who didn't have enough time before taking the wheel — certainly not an invitation to drink up until that threshold like some badge of honor.
Good point, the irrational exuberance took over but was tamed by the rollout/circumstance? Hard to sell a product and grow when you actually are not allowed/physically able to.
With the way the feds wrote the Cannabis Act, it's actually within a province's power to outright ban the sale of cannabis within their jurisdiction, should they wish.
Basically, the federal law removed the criminal prohibition for trafficking and possession, only if the sale/possession is authorized by a provincial law that conforms with certain requirements laid out in the federal law.
Specifically:
69 (1) A person may possess, sell or distribute cannabis if the person is authorized to sell cannabis under a provincial Act that contains the legislative measures referred to in subsection (3)
[...]
(3) (a) they may sell only cannabis that has been produced by a person that is authorized under this Act to produce cannabis for commercial purposes; (b) they may not sell cannabis to young persons; (c) they are required to keep appropriate records respecting their activities in relation to cannabis that they possess for commercial purposes; and (d) they are required to take adequate measures to reduce the risk of cannabis that they possess for commercial purposes being diverted to an illicit market or activity.
All the provinces have enacted laws compatible with the requirements there, but each did so slightly differently.
Production remains more closely held by the federal government, and is regulated directly.
Yes. The federal government previously banned cannabis under its criminal law power; it can decriminalize it but it cannot dictate regulations on the sale of goods - something which ordinarily falls under provincial authority. Take a look at section 92 of the Constitution Act. Canadian provinces have expansive powers to regulate commerce within provincial boundaries. This is recognized in the federal legislation on cannabis which left almost every aspect of retail regulation to the provinces.
This is also exactly parallel to how alcohol is regulated in Canada.
Ontario has always been a bit weird like that (LCBO stores for liqueur, Beer Store for beer).
Out here in Lethbridge, AB (about 100K pop) there's 20 odd stores on Google maps (3-4 within walking distance of me). I've also seen another one or two in the process of being built around town. I made the assumption this story was about too many stores and not enough demand :)
Forgot to mention, in AB all you need (I believe) is a license to sell and you're good to go (like with alcohol).
It doesn't make sense to pay a surcharge for delivery when the product is abundant on the grey market.
As far as the "bubble bursting", well, anyone who thought the Canadian government was going to allow the market to mint Marijuana millionaires and billionaires was simply naive.
You see the same problems in the American market too. Contrast the following experiences. To buy legally, I have to go trek out to my local dispensary, sit outside for 30 min - 1 hour, hope they have what I want when I get inside (no way to check in advance as they have no inventory management), pay 100% more than black market value per quantity, deal with ridiculously arbitrary restrictions on how much and what I am allowed to buy, I have to pay with cash, and I receive product with low potency.
If I want to buy illegally, I can call ping my friend, they tell me the whole inventory in advance, I tell them what I want, they bring it to me for free, I get very high quality product, it's very cheap, and we hang out for a few hours.
Legal. I’m not a heavy user, but legal has been the amazing. I can pick up edibles of known amounts of thc. The sales people are friendly and knowledgeable.
Buying illegally was always sketchy, never knowing if someone would show up, how good the product was, if it actually was indica or sativa or hybrid, it was always just “good shit”, which wasn’t always true.
Prices feel the same and it’s defiantly not lower potency in my experience.
I agree, I am in Australia so no legal weed here but I would happily pay more to be able to buy edibles as well as know exactly what I am buying and what the dosages are.
Not to mention that illegal growers don't care what poisons they douse the plants with as long as the insects die before they can eat them. Then the users smoke this crap. I don't know that we've yet seen the healthcare outcome of this.
Conversely, in Nova Scotia, I can go to my closest dispensary, wait about 5 minutes in line (inside a surprisingly posh store), pay with a simple tap, and I'm on my way. The biggest issue here is the waste from packaging.
Where is this? I can walk into a dispensary.. usually really close to wherever I am and just buy whatever I want. It's like buying bread.
When I lived in California I could have it delivered even.
Here in Colorado the black market continues to thrives because shit heads don't think they should have to pay taxes, but the actual experience of legally buying pot is super easy.
This. The legal cannabis-buying experience in my small BC town is actually quite nice. My only complaint is the required product packaging. The stores are almost as nice as those in Seattle. No problem using a credit card, either.
Daily smoker in NYC, I went to California last winter to visit family. Along the way I stopped in at two dispensaries. Very poor experiences. Police like guards all over, waiting rooms that feel like air locks with doors between the waiting area and the inside. Metal detectors and wands. Cash only with an ATM with yet another line, then a line to the counter.
And like you I call my guy who sends me a list of at least 5-6 different strains, two regular strains he will always have (king and platinum kush), always fresh, with volume pricing up to pounds. Then he shuffles strains and special items like prerolls, edibles, exotics in jars, and oil carts. So there's always a variety. Plus free door to door delivery. So our experiences are similar and the reason why the legal market has yet to catch up with the black market.
> Police like guards all over, waiting rooms that feel like air locks with doors between the waiting area and the inside. Metal detectors and wands. Cash only with an ATM with yet another line, then a line to the counter
Living in Portland, OR that experience is wild to me. All of the shops I’ve been to don’t have any guards, just an employee during the required ID check.
Obviously in America it depends on the state. My experience in CO is the opposite, lines are always short or non-existent (except during peak hours). Prices are cheap and concentrates are even cheaper. (It's cheaper than alcohol for sure.) Most stores have sites that show their inventory (TBH it is kind of so-so but honestly almost everything is high THC/low CBD anyway). Purchase limits decent; 28g/1oz flower/8g concentrates is a lot to go through for most people.
Only inconvenience are: Some puritan counties/cities have banned recreational stores. Prices in turist/ski areas can be a bit more expensive depending on supply/demand. And I think higher CBD stuff is getting divereted to the medical & CBD oil market but that's just a theory.
The illegal market obviously varies dealer to dealer... not everyone has that same kind of stay-and-chill relationship with their dealer.
Here in Colorado, I have none of your problems. The wait is usually 0-10 minutes for me. I can check their inventory online for most dispensaries, even pre-order only for some places. I can also call and ask them. The values are cheaper than the black market or about the same. I am starting to be able to pay with my credit card now, but primary it still is cash. The products I buy are amazing in quality. You didn't say which state you are in, so I'm guessing Oregon? I went in to a dispensary when I was there a few years ago and I felt like I was in a drug den. You had to sit around with a bunch of gross people, and had to have a consultation with a doctor... yeah I walked out of there and went to Washington.
I don't know where you live. But here in San Francisco, my neighborhood dispensary ("Apothecarium") is a top-notch experience, sort of like visiting a luxury goods store. They have a great waiting area, and when your name is called (usually within a few minutes), there's a concierge waiting for you who will take you through the entire buying process. It's very civilized.
Here in Vancouver it was a fairly lame experience before legalization, but now it's like picking up groceries. $5 - $10 cad for a joint and you're good.
My experience has been vastly different. Pre-legalization I had many local dispensaries I could choose from. Now there is one. The legal weed is overly dry and over packaged.
I buy my weed from a closet in the back of a clothing store. At least I get quality, correct humidity and I can bring my own packaging.
And don't get me started on the egregiously-named "hobo" run by the sexual-predator-defending Donnelly group.
Another reason for users turning to the black market that this article did not mention but that I've heard mentioned elsewhere is that Canada purportedly limits the potency of legal cannabis to relatively low levels, so the black market remains the only source of high potency cannabis.
Maybe, but the real issue is that anyone is allowed to grow the stuff. And it is really easy to grow. So everyone knows somebody who is growing. Why pay commercial prices when your neighbor can provide you the same quality at a fraction the cost? It may be a "black" market in the sense that it isn't the regulated market, but those who smoke the stuff see little difference between buying a neighbor's pot and buying carrots. They both come from the same garden.
Why also explains why rolling back Prohibition in the US was an unmitigated failure, with everybody still drinking their buddies' homebrews and driving all the pro breweries to bankruptcy.
Since that didn't actually happen, and I'm also buying my carrots at the supermarket, we can probably deduce that it's not home-grown supply that's the problem here.
This is correct for the recreational side of the market in Canada, but the experience of the medicinal cannabis market since the most recent legislation is unparalleled. There's some intake forms to fill out with your physician e.g., https://www.auroramj.com/patients/. Once you're in the door though, you have access to D2C e-commerce the likes of which the rec market cannot currently compare to. Cannabinoid profile analysis for each lot is mandated, so you know exactly what you're getting, and many insurance plans will subsidize the cost.
Is the list of ailments that will get you a cannabis medical card in Canada as flimsy as what can be found in California? E.g. a slightly sore back ten years ago?
I know you mean hybrid strains bread for high potency. Prohibitting those if otherwise legal would require a legal basis.
I thought one objective of legalization was to avoid laced product. Of course lacing weed to make it appear more potent and to be addictive is still forbidden. I have no source for that. Chalk it up as purported rumor. I've heard police test a crusher (weed grinder, whatchamacallit) positive for co-alkaloids and amphetamin in Germany.
Wine production from hybrid grapevine is also prohibited in the EU due to lesser reasons. The French largely influenced EU wine legislation. Only the rootstock is hybrid because it's disease and fungus resistant.
You could also blame the government inefficiency in QC. The stores are government ran. The one in Montreal on St Catherine has permanent bread lines at any time of the day. Some of the product is sold out first thing in the morning and you need to arrive an hour before opening. It’s like Soviet Union of weed.
Quebec is always a special case of bureaucracy and government mismanagement.
Remember that all liquor stores in Quebec are government stores too. I suspect they'll start distributing them there - possibly dependent upon neighborhood approval.
I'll note that the neighborhood I'm in - the older folks are not happy about the new constant pot smell around.
The lack of edibles for the initial launch is a big blocker for casual adoption IMO.
As per the visuals, cannabis use has not grown dramatically since legalization. Oils and raw bud are simply not as accessible as a bar of chocolate.
I imagine that won't cause a significant bump either, but at the least, it opens up the market to the casual user -- which simply has not happened yet in Canada.
Way too much illegal vs legal supply for legal demand to keep up. Same glut we're having in California, excepting half of that is caused directly by zoning laws and such making it almost impossible to open a legal dispensary despite it being legalized in the state.
Speaking as a Canadian (and utterly uninterested in cannabis) - this is closest to accurate.
Many jurisdictions are openly hostile
Most parts of the country limited access, supply and transportation.
It's hard to make a legal business work when most are still against it functioning.
This zoning issue has affected every state that moved to legal over the last five years and will, for sure, play the same in the states launching in 2020. Many millions have been spent on just legal wrangling to start a business
Since 90s or so I’ve viewed Canada as quasi legal. Very low enforcement compared to my US experience. It seemed like a larger amount of homegrown and related technologies came out of Canada. Maybe I’m wrong. But if that is true, for consumer there’s really no advantage to going retail and lots of disadvantages as mentioned. So the “black market” sounds bad it’s really like a local artisan. Not some terrorist funding cartel run thing. Just your friend from down the road that shares his bounty.
Very true, the RCMP in my hometown were rarely doing raids/busts or anything of the sort. Unless you we're trying to muck around with hard drugs or driving around in a hotboxed car.
There were multiple parents/working class people with tables/setups in their garage. Come over for a cup of coffee, catch up about the kids, grab a few grams until next week! Nothing nefarious.
On the consumer end the logistics is really the benefit of legal weed. You don't have to know a guy, play a game of telephone, wait around. Instead you can visit a professionally run store filled with people that know about the products and gear that is stocked. Makes it much easier to add into the routine right beside picking up groceries. That being said you pay a premium for that, and there's still black-market services doing Amazon style home delivery.
Also, drug crimes in Canada are prosecuted by the feds, not your local prosecutor. And I don't think there's been much federal prosecutorial interest in those cases, even if your local RCMP thinks its a problem.
It likely explains why Toronto had to go the bylaw infraction route to close down shops. Which was still a waste of money...
To flip the question around, what's the benefit of regulation? If none, then yeah, it's less weight to just not do it. But without regulation, presumably you get shady growers/dealers with products of dubious constitution.
It looks like the price of legalization (in this case) is taxation and regulation. It should have been possible to legalize without either of these things, but that didn't happen. Gotta wonder why.
Sure if you have such a friend they would be a great alternative to legal retail. But many people don't have such a connection so the retail option is just a hell of a lot easier than what they were used to.
I wouldn’t disagree. My point is more that a grey market going legal isn’t the same as a black market going legal like is happening in the States. Also doesn’t sound like the retail convenience is materializing for most.
Readit News
"This is especially true in Ontario, Canada's most populous province. Red tape and a cap on the number of cannabis retail outlets have made rollout slow. Retail licenses were awarded by lottery, and the province held the number of licenses at 24, to serve a population of 14.5m."
"In December, the Ontario government announced that after a slow and fitful start, the province will open itself up to more cannabis retail. It will do away with the lottery system, the cap on the number of private stores and cancel some pre-qualification requirements."
List of Canadian Provinces by Population: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_provinces_and...
I personally barely experience any impact of legal marijuana in my life besides smelling it on the street as it isn’t illegal any more. As the article states it isn’t like we became a nation of potheads. I only know 2 people amongst my friends who have made more than one purchase at a retailer.
They don’t even use it recreationally when they are out with us because we are all old enough that we have to drive, work, parent, etc.
My anecdote I think fits with the statistics and the economic availability the article lays out.
ps Future US border guards reading this comment may rejoice at how boring Canada remains. :)
Indeed, countries who legalized cannabis rather saw demand stay stable or even fall (hence why the UN has been advocating to end the "war on drugs" for about two decades now). In fact we have data on alcohol as well in the past century, and clearly prohibition was not correlated with less drinking, more like the opposite.
There's a strong body of studies laying out reasons — the most striking to me being, "if someone indeed has a drug problem, who should take care of them: a cop or a doctor?", implying that people don't even talk to their doctors about illegal substances, for fear of legal consequences, which thus compounds the public health problem; not to mention that the black market is likely to encourage addiction, as well as supply "bad" products.
There's really no argument for a legal solution to drugs, the only proven way to get a healthier population in that regard is from the health / medical angle.
> we are all old enough that we have to drive, work, parent, etc.
That's also part of it: legal things otherwise dangerous are introduced with care to the population (warnings, policies regarding the youth, etc).
This is how, despite the incredible risks it poses, we are able to sell alcohol to the general population and yet contain the risks to a large measure, because we are educated about it and responsible, and we can talk, watch out for others, etc. Granted, it's still the first cause of death on Earth (about equal with tobacco), but it's still a victory given the dangerosity of the product (from a toxicological standpoint, it's the most lethal category, on par with cocaine).
That being said, I hate it when people think it's OK to drink and drive or drink and parent if they remain below the legal maximum. Recreation means that, it's the opposite of "duty": one should not drink or smoke at all if they are expected to be responsible for others, especially children. Get that psychoactive substance (beer, wine, cannabis...) when you're really only responsible for yourself. The legal limit, again, in matters of health (here, your ability to be lucid and with good reflexes) is only indicative, a tolerance for those who didn't have enough time before taking the wheel — certainly not an invitation to drink up until that threshold like some badge of honor.
Basically, the federal law removed the criminal prohibition for trafficking and possession, only if the sale/possession is authorized by a provincial law that conforms with certain requirements laid out in the federal law.
Specifically:
69 (1) A person may possess, sell or distribute cannabis if the person is authorized to sell cannabis under a provincial Act that contains the legislative measures referred to in subsection (3)
[...]
(3) (a) they may sell only cannabis that has been produced by a person that is authorized under this Act to produce cannabis for commercial purposes; (b) they may not sell cannabis to young persons; (c) they are required to keep appropriate records respecting their activities in relation to cannabis that they possess for commercial purposes; and (d) they are required to take adequate measures to reduce the risk of cannabis that they possess for commercial purposes being diverted to an illicit market or activity.
All the provinces have enacted laws compatible with the requirements there, but each did so slightly differently.
Production remains more closely held by the federal government, and is regulated directly.
This is also exactly parallel to how alcohol is regulated in Canada.
Out here in Lethbridge, AB (about 100K pop) there's 20 odd stores on Google maps (3-4 within walking distance of me). I've also seen another one or two in the process of being built around town. I made the assumption this story was about too many stores and not enough demand :)
Forgot to mention, in AB all you need (I believe) is a license to sell and you're good to go (like with alcohol).
As far as the "bubble bursting", well, anyone who thought the Canadian government was going to allow the market to mint Marijuana millionaires and billionaires was simply naive.
If I want to buy illegally, I can call ping my friend, they tell me the whole inventory in advance, I tell them what I want, they bring it to me for free, I get very high quality product, it's very cheap, and we hang out for a few hours.
Which experience do you think most people choose?
Buying illegally was always sketchy, never knowing if someone would show up, how good the product was, if it actually was indica or sativa or hybrid, it was always just “good shit”, which wasn’t always true.
Prices feel the same and it’s defiantly not lower potency in my experience.
When I lived in California I could have it delivered even.
Here in Colorado the black market continues to thrives because shit heads don't think they should have to pay taxes, but the actual experience of legally buying pot is super easy.
And like you I call my guy who sends me a list of at least 5-6 different strains, two regular strains he will always have (king and platinum kush), always fresh, with volume pricing up to pounds. Then he shuffles strains and special items like prerolls, edibles, exotics in jars, and oil carts. So there's always a variety. Plus free door to door delivery. So our experiences are similar and the reason why the legal market has yet to catch up with the black market.
Living in Portland, OR that experience is wild to me. All of the shops I’ve been to don’t have any guards, just an employee during the required ID check.
Wish I didn’t have to use an ATM though.
Only inconvenience are: Some puritan counties/cities have banned recreational stores. Prices in turist/ski areas can be a bit more expensive depending on supply/demand. And I think higher CBD stuff is getting divereted to the medical & CBD oil market but that's just a theory.
The illegal market obviously varies dealer to dealer... not everyone has that same kind of stay-and-chill relationship with their dealer.
I live in Denver and I can order online, walk to a dispensary in 10 minutes, show my id and be handed a bag with my order.
I don't know where you live. But here in San Francisco, my neighborhood dispensary ("Apothecarium") is a top-notch experience, sort of like visiting a luxury goods store. They have a great waiting area, and when your name is called (usually within a few minutes), there's a concierge waiting for you who will take you through the entire buying process. It's very civilized.
What's the deal with this? Admittedly "cash only" sounds more like how the illegal market works...
Gorgeous location, knowledgable staff, fair prices
Deleted Comment
I buy my weed from a closet in the back of a clothing store. At least I get quality, correct humidity and I can bring my own packaging.
And don't get me started on the egregiously-named "hobo" run by the sexual-predator-defending Donnelly group.
Deleted Comment
https://aglc.ca/cannabis/using-cannabis-responsibly/growing-...
Since that didn't actually happen, and I'm also buying my carrots at the supermarket, we can probably deduce that it's not home-grown supply that's the problem here.
I know you mean hybrid strains bread for high potency. Prohibitting those if otherwise legal would require a legal basis.
I thought one objective of legalization was to avoid laced product. Of course lacing weed to make it appear more potent and to be addictive is still forbidden. I have no source for that. Chalk it up as purported rumor. I've heard police test a crusher (weed grinder, whatchamacallit) positive for co-alkaloids and amphetamin in Germany.
https://winesvinesanalytics.com/news/article/201942/Will-Eur...
If you want to drink wine from hybrid grapes in the EU, you have to buy import (Moldova, North Macedonia etc) or homemade (usualy low quality) wine.
Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria had to uproot most of their hybrids upon joining the EU. The same would happen to Macedonia.
Remember that all liquor stores in Quebec are government stores too. I suspect they'll start distributing them there - possibly dependent upon neighborhood approval.
I'll note that the neighborhood I'm in - the older folks are not happy about the new constant pot smell around.
As per the visuals, cannabis use has not grown dramatically since legalization. Oils and raw bud are simply not as accessible as a bar of chocolate.
I imagine that won't cause a significant bump either, but at the least, it opens up the market to the casual user -- which simply has not happened yet in Canada.
It's hard to make a legal business work when most are still against it functioning.
That said, it ain't dead yet.
Dead Comment
There were multiple parents/working class people with tables/setups in their garage. Come over for a cup of coffee, catch up about the kids, grab a few grams until next week! Nothing nefarious.
On the consumer end the logistics is really the benefit of legal weed. You don't have to know a guy, play a game of telephone, wait around. Instead you can visit a professionally run store filled with people that know about the products and gear that is stocked. Makes it much easier to add into the routine right beside picking up groceries. That being said you pay a premium for that, and there's still black-market services doing Amazon style home delivery.
It likely explains why Toronto had to go the bylaw infraction route to close down shops. Which was still a waste of money...
Speaking of things that don't raise an eyebrow in San Francisco.
It looks like the price of legalization (in this case) is taxation and regulation. It should have been possible to legalize without either of these things, but that didn't happen. Gotta wonder why.
why would i bother putting my info into a govt database of people consuming products that are illegal in most areas of the world?
my friend recently got banned from the us for having a small amount for personal consumption
would rather get higher quality/better priced product from friends that get shipped to me at my convenience than deal with the headache of legal weed