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cletus · 6 years ago
Four obvious questions:

1. How is this different to Glassdoor?

2. How do you get enough data points to be useful?

3. How do you account for selection bias?

4., (and here's the big one) how do you account for the mistruths of self-reported income?

The last one is the big problem with all self-reported income summaries. One thing I've learned over the year is that people lie, even anonymously. I'm not even sure why. Do they really believe it? Are they posting it to make themselves feel good? I really don't know. But I do know that I don't believe your salary claim until I see a W2.

As for selection bias, this is a big one too. Take a company like Google. At level 7+ data point get pretty thin. This is partially because there aren't that many but the real problem is that these people really have no motivation to share. So you don't really see the big outliers.

Lastly, most of these aren't clear on what number they are report and what users should report. Is it base salary? What about bonus? What about RSUs/options?

As anyone who has worked in big tech knows, base salary number are almost completely useless. Salary band is defined by level (pretty tightly, in my experience). More than 50% of your total compensation will come from bonus and stock and stock in particular has massive variance.

lavezzi · 6 years ago
Does question #1 really need to be asked? Glassdoor has lost its impartiality through solicitation of corporate money and influence, and imo can no longer be trusted. The scene is ripe for competition now.
t0mas88 · 6 years ago
We had a Glassdoor sales guy contact HR after a negative review to sell us a paid option to "improve" our profile. My trust in them since then is below zero.
waterlink · 6 years ago
This is a disgusting business model. If any of my products (that are in similar domain) succeeds, I’ll never turn to this model!

Also, I hate ads too.

For this business domain, that leaves a business model where "power users" of the product can get more features, or more access, or more detailed data for a premium fee.

Are there even more alternatives? What do you think?

teddyuk · 6 years ago
I lie anonymously because I want to put the average up so we all get paid more :)
pc86 · 6 years ago
This seems particularly ineffective when compared to more direct options like having a good BATNA and improving your negotiation skills.
waterlink · 6 years ago
I quite like that idea!
waterlink · 6 years ago
1. Shows you separate entries (pseudo-anonymized) instead of showing statistical numbers like averages and spreads.

2. By requiring users to share their wage information at signup. The idea is that to see salaries of others you need to share yours first. It’s possible to delete wage entry later, but also that makes the user lose access to others, until they either: add wage entry again or upgrade to paid account plan.

3. Yes, I agree that certain folks will have no motivation to share, because they don’t care to know what others ("below" their level) earn. What could be interesting for them is what others of the same or similar level earn. So maybe something like peer-to-peer sharing may be interesting to these folk.

4. We’re going to implement an algorithm that will try to detect "suspicious" data entries, and devise some a more advanced validation mechanism. Such entries will be hidden from other users in the meantime.

So there are two fields: core wage (this is what you get no matter what), and other benefits estimate (here you just bundle everything else, and for non-deterministic stuff, make your best estimate, of what it’s worth).

"More than 50% come from bonus or stock, or others" is actually not quite true in every culture or country. For what I’ve seen here in Germany and in few other countries, 90% or even more is the base salary.

cletus · 6 years ago
> By requiring users to share their wage information at signup

This seems like a bad idea. Aren't you concerned this will lower the quality and accuracy of submissions? I know when some website forces me to put in details I don't think it needs I put in garbage.

Also you're asking people to submit data when they have no idea what data you already have. Are they first to submit?

This reminds me of Auto generated pages with no content or no answer yet that's not clear from a Google SERP. You get the "helpful" message like "be the first to post X". I actually wish Google would downrank questions with no answers and empty wiki pages.

It smacks of clickbait is what I'm getting at. If you measure it you'll probably find your bounce rate is really high.

slumdev · 6 years ago
> 1. How is this different to Glassdoor?

Glassdoor under-reports salaries because unhappy people are overrepresented there. Unhappy people are likely to be underpaid compared to their happy peers. Anything that helps us gather data relevant to negotiations and eliminate the salary-sharing stigma is a good step forward.

> people lie, even anonymously

People lie about taboos. If salary sharing becomes commonplace, they might feel compelled to tell the truth.

commandlinefan · 6 years ago
> One thing I've learned over the year is that people lie, even anonymously.

How do you know?

nautilus12 · 6 years ago
If you base 50% of your salary on options you are getting screwed because I have been given options every job and literally haven't gotten 1 cent because of the exercise window and investors getting preferred stocks. At this point I just say give me the cash.
cletus · 6 years ago
Options in a startup are one thing (and most likely will be worth $0). Options in a big tech company are something else entirely. Granted big tech companies these days pretty much all do RSUs but Google, for example, did options up until 2008 or so.

So this is what I'm talking about when I say that non-salary compensation can easily eclipse your salary at a big tech company.

zamfi · 6 years ago
I think the OP is referring to "big tech" as in mostly public companies.
jacquesm · 6 years ago
Glassdoor = Yelp for HR.
dboreham · 6 years ago
Small nit: self employed people likely won't have a W-2. They would have other ways to prove income though such as their 1040.
pc86 · 6 years ago
This seems at best orthogonal to the real point.
ChrisMarshallNY · 6 years ago
As lots of commenters mentioned, this is a nice try, but human (and corporate) nature dooms it.

The only way to make this kind of thing work, is to legislate salary transparency.

That may seem to disincentivize individual excellence (by removing the rewards), but I'd say that it's OK to pay Bob more than Joe, as long as you are willing to justify that increase in wages. As a manager, I had to fight like hell to get promotions and increases for my team, so I always had this information handy.

The other way to incentivize excellence and effort is through bonuses, but these could easily become opaque, thus, continuing the issue.

In academia, salaries tend to be [relatively] low, so perks become the currency.

Human nature dictates that we always want to be "better than" our peers (thus making them "not-peers"). We always seem to find ways to do end-runs around the system.

I'm fairly glad to be out of the corporate rat-race. I'm doing my own thing, making less than I ever have, and loving every minute of it.

waterlink · 6 years ago
Legislating salary transparency would be quite awesome actually. And as others have pointed out, in some countries you can call tax office and ask how much another person has earned in the last year.

And I do believe that every company needs to get very transparent on how they decide the salary, when they pay someone differently. There should be a well-designed set of rules and processes to follow. This way, people who want to earn more, know exactly what to do and in which direction should they grow and develop. Also, if they think that this direction doesn’t align with their personal goals, they can make a better decision about joining another company, where interests will align better.

hiram112 · 6 years ago
> Legislating salary transparency would be quite awesome actually.

I've heard they do this in one or more Scandinavian countries. Essentially, you can go online and see what your coworkers and neighbors earn.

I have a feeling that's why salaries in these countries, especially when you include state defined insurance and pension plans, are so normalized. It's probably also why more innovation tends to take place in the US (subjectively).

For many of us in the US, I think this would actually be a net negative, myself included. There is so much division in this country, eventually employers will simply be forced to dish out nearly identical salaries for everyone in order to avoid lawsuits and government penalties, even when talent and performance is radically different between employees.

For example, Employee X has a BS in CS from a great engineering school which took a lot of effort to obtain. He was hacking away at code on his own as a teenager and is passionate about tech, and is often working on open source projects on weekends and evenings.

Another employee comes in - she got a watered-down "Information Systems" degree from some mediocre pay-to-play online school, and her previous knowledge of technology is her IPhone and Facebook. She pays her tutition fees, does the minimum to graduate, and now has her BS, too.

She discovers the talented guy make 50% more than her, even though he's the guy leading the development projects, ensuring standards are met, cleaning up the garbage produced by other junior coders, etc. We all know that many teams form this dynamic, especially in typical contracting and enterprise shops.

Well of course she'll complain. They both have similar 'credentials' on paper, both work 40 hours, both are in their 30s. Management won't care that one dev is worth 5x the other, they want to avoid lawsuits and government penalties. So his salary is lowered, hers is raised. Because he knows he won't get paid what he's worth anywhere else since it's the same everywhere, he just stop performing at work, the whole project suffers.

And yes, this has happened in my work place several times in the last few years as salaries have become more transparent and there are more complaints from groups who feel that they're being discriminated against, regardless of their performance and experience.

pc86 · 6 years ago
So against my better judgment I signed up and shared information. Now that you have my data, not only is my account is in a "pending" status, but I can't log in because I get an (obviously incorrect) error that the user doesn't exist.

Pretty godawful experience from the start, since the only reason I added my information was to see if there was anything relevant since I do not live or work in a tech hub (quite the opposite).

Edit: And it seems like you need to search for companies in order to see them. Browsing companies to see if I recognize any in my area would be a good feature.

waterlink · 6 years ago
The user account does not exist yet for pending registrations. It gets created only when registration is accepted.

Also, if rejected registration is not updated with correct info in 1 week, it gets automatically deleted. This data does not become part of the information that other users can see.

> Browsing companies to see if I recognize any in my area would be a good feature.

You are not the first asking for that today. I’ll implement this feature for the next release.

> the only reason I added my information was to see if there was anything relevant

That also screams like a missing feature for me. I could allow people to browse companies (by location) and show masked data until they sign up and share their own entry.

waterlink · 6 years ago
1. I have implemented the company browsing feature

2. I have made it available without signup/login (partially—you’ll see companies/locations and how many entries they have each, and be able to navigate to these company pages, but from there to see numbers, you’d need to signup/login).

outime · 6 years ago
How is this different from the database of salaries that other services such as Glassdoor already offer?
waterlink · 6 years ago
As far as I know, Glassdoor shows only averages and statistical distributions and doesn’t show separate salary entries. It doesn’t satisfy the questions and fears that I have set out to solve.

e.g., “Who should I look up to in my company to earn more?” or “How up-to-date are specific salary entries?”

My product doesn’t answer the first question just yet, but it will in the future via a peer-to-peer sharing feature that I’m planning in the next version.

mgliwka · 6 years ago
Can you enforce a threshold of entries for a certain role after which you start displaying the salary? And then only display it as a range with information about the quartiles?

Otherwise it‘s not so anonymous. Sometimes the combination of role and Salary is enough to point to a single employee. That’s precisely the reason why you only get statistical information at the other sites.

waterlink · 6 years ago
Yes, this is a pseudo-anonymization. Someone with enough information can always say: “Oh, I believe this is your salary entry.”

On the other hand, it’s not provable (I don’t save the exact number, and I separate the account and wage entry securely so that the user and only user can realize that connection: https://dev.to/foundsiders/how-have-i-ensured-the-privacy-an...).

If I apply replace entries with statistical ranges, then the product would become a clone of other products for this (like Glasdoor, LinkedIn Salary, etc.). And it won’t solve the problems I set out to solve with it anymore.

waterlink · 6 years ago
# The problem:

I have always felt certain anxiety when thinking about my salary and only guessing what my colleagues might be earning. This issue is especially problematic in cultures and countries in which talking about wage numbers is an unspoken taboo among the employees.

Quite often, the questions like “Should I ask for a raise?, or am I already earning maximum that my employer can handle?” “Am I earning too much for the work that I do?, or am I underpaid?” “Who should I look up to and learn what they are doing to get a higher salary?” have plagued my mind.

# Existing solutions:

Of course, there are services where you can look at salary levels or statistical distributions of wages. The problem with them is that they don’t give you specific (albeit anonymized) numbers of what individuals earn, and they don’t satisfy nagging feelings of fear and anxiety that I have mentioned above. Also, it’s hard to tell whether the numbers are up-to-date or not.

# The solution:

I designed this product to be privacy-first so that many more users feel comfortable sharing their wage information and keeping it up-to-date. It allows users to see all salary entries in their current company, search for other companies in preparation for negotiations. Here is the full list of features:

- I verify the data with LinkedIn profiles

- I nudge users to update their info twice a year

- I keep information quality high

- You keep your data anonymous

- You can see your and other companies data

- You can subscribe for updates for particular job titles/companies

# Plans for the next version:

I plan to allow users to share their non-anonymized information in an encrypted peer-to-peer fashion with each other if they want to. This answers the question like, “Oh, somebody earns twice as much as me… And has the same job title… Who is that?”

Tell me what you think about it! Is there something missing from your perspective?

maxaf · 6 years ago
> I verify the data with LinkedIn profiles

Lost me right there. Good luck with that. LinkedIn is notoriously a garbage dump of spam, recruiters and fake profiles. That’s on top of the fact that most people (myself included) don’t have a LinkedIn profile to begin with in order to curb spam.

waterlink · 6 years ago
What do you think would be an alternative tool to verify that people enter real job titles, company names and location?
aripickar · 6 years ago
Check out what levels.fyi is doing. They do specific numbers broken down by comp type for all different kinds of job levels.
s5ma6n · 6 years ago
While this sounds quite good on paper, I have a few questions:

- What kind of data are you storing about a user? You mention verification with LinkedIn but what happens if your database is compromised 6 months later and all data is accessed by a malicious 3rd party?

- When checking salaries, I prefer to search a job title and look at the average salary of a country, city, region or a company. Do you provide these features?

- I looked at the demo application and only thing I see is a table with some entries. Unfortunately, this is not very user friendly.

     - I would want to see the average salary of a position

     - Count of salary entries of a position

     - Variance for the salary of a position (min, max, average, median)
- The way to success is to have a lot of salary entries in your database. As a newly established service owner, how do you plan to keep users with your service and providing updates rather than using glassdoor etc. competitors?

- How do you plan to monetize this service?

Please do not see my comments as offensive, I mean to ask honest questions and give criticism.

waterlink · 6 years ago
These are all great questions! Thank you for asking!

- For the data question, you can find all the information on our privacy policy in details (https://www.fellowage.io/privacy): what is stored, how it’s processed and for what reason, lawful basis, etc. Please read this about how I disassociate account information (and protect it) from raw pseudo-anonymized wage entries (that are already "public"—available to all users of the system via search): https://dev.to/foundsiders/how-have-i-ensured-the-privacy-an...

- I don’t provide these features right now. Currently, product solves slightly different problem, and I think it’s possible to expand its feature set to cover for search by job title/location, or company. You can already search by company/location though. (It’s a search bar at the top of the webapp’s UI).

- These are all features that show you statistical distributions, and while they are useful, there are plenty of tools that solve for that problem already. I set out to solve slightly different problem: “Who should I look up to in my company to earn more?” or “How up-to-date are specific salary entries?”

- I plan to notify my users to update their entries every half a year. Also, there are features that allow users to set up alerts for certain companies/locations/job-titles when there are new entries, or updates. These alerts are aggregated in a weekly report (if it’s not empty, of course).

- The current plan for monetization: there are two types of accounts: free and paid. Free account can view their own company/location without limitations, and for viewing of other companies/locations there are 3 monthly free views, that can be substantially and permanently boosted with referrals (similar to what Dropbox did with their referrals). Paid account has no limitations, of course.

Please tell me what you think about these replies! :)

A4ET8a8uTh0 · 6 years ago
>>I have always felt certain anxiety when thinking about my salary and only guessing what my colleagues might be earning.<<

I can tell you that anxiety of not knowing is better than the anger/disappointment/a whole host of other destructive emotions after you do know. Companies don't want to deal with this. It can easily get ugly.

In my case, my boss'boss actually had the balls to tell me that he will not be terrorized by me suggesting there are greener pastures out there. Looking back it was a big mistake. Should have waited for an offer and then use this information.

Moral of the story. Be careful what you wish for.

friendlybus · 6 years ago
>I plan to allow users to share their non-anonymized information in an encrypted peer-to-peer fashion with each other if they want to. This answers the question like, “Oh, somebody earns twice as much as me… And has the same job title… Who is that?”

Couldn't you find a bunch of people who are in that job title in your org? I'm sure with some detective work you could connect the dots on individuals you care to track down, depending on the size of the company.

AlexTWithBeard · 6 years ago
I have always felt certain anxiety when thinking about my salary and only guessing what my colleagues might be earning.

As another option, talk to a recruiter.

LandR · 6 years ago
Or talk to your colleagues. We talk about salary, bonus, raises etc.
polytronic · 6 years ago
I have trouble registering to your website. More specifically I opted for linkedin based registration but the process stops with a message that the password is weak although I use a couple of special characters, numbers and text in both lower and capital characters
waterlink · 6 years ago
Please use a stronger password.

In fact, the requirements are quite relaxed already. I wanted to make it even more strict, but my partner insisted on relaxing them.

The age of simple passwords are long gone, as they are really easy to crack with enough budget.

Have you considered a password manager that can generate random unique and strong passwords for each website (and store them securely) for you?

Eikon · 6 years ago
Unfortunately, as there is no way to vet submitted information on these kinds of platforms, their use is pretty limited. Some employer can just go about submitting false salary data in order to appear more appealing.

This works the other way around too, someone who was not hired, some ex-employee with some gripe against their previous employer, a misbehaving competitor... Just about anyone can go about submitting false reviews about your company in order to damage your employer-brand.

someexgamedev · 6 years ago
I've heard of places where HR requires you to write a (probably) glowing Glassdoor review during onboarding. Or severance which is conditioned on not writing a negative review.

Goodhart's Law at work.

phyzome · 6 years ago
Easy enough: Write the glowing review, then contact Glassdoor and report your company. I'm fairly sure Glassdoor would then remove all the reviews.
izzydata · 6 years ago
Write a good review, receive your severance and then change it to a negative review.
waterlink · 6 years ago
In some countries the law specifically mentions that such terms of severance agreement is not valid and cannot be enforced.

Deleted Comment

esotericn · 6 years ago
Someone posted a similar comment on the work-life balance post.

I don't see how this works at all except at the bottom level.

If I read that your salary is X, and interview, I expect that the negotiation revolves roughly around X.

If you offer me 0.7*X I'm going to walk and I expect anyone qualified would.

abdullahkhalids · 6 years ago
I think what GP means is that the employer gives X to current employees, but makes false posts on this website, that claims there are employees that make 0.7X. Then when you interview with the employer, they offer you X, and you think you are being offered 30% more than your future co-workers, so you happily take the job.
waterlink · 6 years ago
I verify manually that person’s data (job title, company name, and location) matches what they have on their LinkedIn profile as a current role.
gfs78 · 6 years ago
If you plan to go global don´t repeat glassdoor mistake (or is it on purpose?). In countries where inflation rate is big (like 30-50% a year) salary info that is not tied to the date the worker was perceiving it, its mostly useless. Same happens with average salary reports, etc.
waterlink · 6 years ago
I’m keeping and showing how old the entry is. Additionally, I plan to notify users to update their information every half a year, since their last update. If they don’t update in one year, I plan to hide, or remove their information automatically.