It didn't really give any indications as to how it works in the article, but the people I've known with the worst social phobia have been those who've been most scared of potential (or imagined) social punishment, usually because they feel there is a "script" that they will have trouble following in a social setting (e.g. responding to something "the wrong way", or not having the "right" answer ready for a question, etc.) Seems like it makes sense that if you're constantly places in scenarios with no script and no right or wrong answer, it would help alleviate the anxiety over not knowing "what everyone knows" you're supposed to do in [situation], and that being confident in what you say is like 50% of being seen as a socially capable person.
The study notes a high attrition rate (~45% of those who started this dropped out), and this appears to be a voluntary endeavor.
This is significant to me, as I suspect many of the people with anxiety that is significant enough to be diagnosable would not be willing to do it or would pretty much shut down if placed in the setting.
To delve into personal anecdotes:
I had a theater class in school that regularly included improv exercises like described. In 11 years of it (K-10 or so), I don't think it ever went well.
The actual manifestation of the problem with "no script" was drawing a complete blank as soon as I was asked, not having a bunch of ideas I was scared to respond with.
It's certainly possible that these people have a better method, but I had multiple theater teachers and I was socially fine in normal settings. All these activities tended to do was give me more anxiety issues because everyone else could come up with things and I'd just be stuck there no matter how people tried to help me get going.
Those are not really common situations in adult life, but I'm still bad with "icebreaker" games and other similar things that "put me on the spot" to come up with something outside of normal social interactions.
The problem that nearly everyone has, and slowly becomes better, is being willing to be boring. The improv classes and books, particularly the closer you get to Keith Johnstone, all emphasize this. People get paralyzed trying to be creative, and scenes and games stall out, sometimes painfully, when people would be just fine, possibly even overjoyed, with the first thing that comes to your mind. But the first thing that comes to mind might reveal your "true self", the crazy person you don't want people to see that you are sure isn't in anyone else, and so you try to be different, creative, and you're just grasping for what you think other people might find acceptable and special. ... I've taken a lot of improv classes, and read a lot of books, and it's so much more therapy than I expected.
>> I had a theater class in school that regularly included improv exercises like described. In 11 years of it (K-10 or so), I don't think it ever went well.
My anecdote: theater/drama classes in middle and early high school don't count. You're mixed in with a bunch of teenagers who are only taking the class because either a) it's a mandatory class for all students; or b) more than half the class elected to take the class because it's "easy credit". When many/most of the students in a class aren't there because they actually want to explore the art, it ruins the entire dynamic. The same loudmouth bullies who cause trouble elsewhere in the school have an open season on the shy students; every step a socially awkward student tries to take to "open up" simply provides the bullies with more information they need to target the vulnerable.
Every participant must be present because they have a genuine interest to work with their teammates. Acceptance and cooperation are necessary in order to peel back social fear, and that means finding a group of like-minded people who show up to explore themselves and others around them.
As a socially anxious person who took improv classes in my 20s, I found them hugely useful. The biggest thing I took away were specific attitudes. Like "yes and", where you accept what the person you're talking to starts with and then build on it. Or the the way to succeed is to make many attempts to start something going (what improv calls offers), to follow up on the ones that show promise, and not to worry about the ones that fall by the wayside. Or to not get in your head, to stay present in the moment.
And yes, it definitely trains you that there is no "right" way to have a conversation.
I think the main difficulty is that normal conversational success can be different than improv success. In improv, you want funny. Funny can be good in normal conversations, but most people are after other things. Understanding, support, connection, reflection. New improv people can be fantastically annoying if they use it as just another way to hide and deflect.
An actor I really like claimed improv's "make the other person look awesome" notion helped her to be different, stand out.
Sounds like a fantastic philosophy.
I've never witnessed improv (live performances). I had ignorantly equated improv with standup comedy, which I mostly dislike, for being mean spirited and punching down.
What I remember from middle school and early high school is the pressure to be funny in group settings. In terms of social status, that skill was at least as important as being good at sports. Failure was immediate and so public. My jokes were met with confusion, silence and people looking at their shoes. The most excruciating part was waiting for someone else to pick up the dropped ball and restart the conversation. It only took a few experiences like that before I stopped trying. Improv could help you learn what is funny to your peers and also how to participate in a way that keeps the conversation flowing.
I wonder if there’s still value in etiquette classes that used to be common but seem to have disappeared. I can imagine there being benefits to practicing politely greeting people and holding a conversation with eye contact and complements and all of that.
would that fall under "exposure therapy" ? i.e. doing it enough to get comfortable that nothing bad happens no matter how unprepared, as opposed to learning the skills to have a good "script" for when situations arise. I've tried Improv classes for this reason, but can't say it was a huge boost, other than adding 1 more thing to my list of self development achievements :)
I definitely think so. I started my career in the financial industry and stumbled into a position that required me to attend mutual fund board meetings at 25. As the youngest person in the room by at least 20 years and the only woman it was hugely intimidating to me. It was also immensely frustrating. They would ask a difficult question of me (as good board members do) and if it wasn't a question I had anticipated I would freeze, blubber out some sort of halfwitted response, and hope they'd quickly turn their attention elsewhere. Later I'd get angry at myself because if I hadn't panicked I knew I could have given a much better and more valuable response. Complaining about my frustration one day a colleague suggested improv classes to me and they were HUGELY valuable for this exact reason. It taught me that I can take a moment to gather my thoughts and nothing bad would happen. It also taught me that I could decide where a conversation was going instead of being dragged along for the ride while my brain tried to work out the details. I often tell people it taught me how to "think faster" but perhaps it's more accurate to say it taught me how to react slower and think more deliberately.
This is a bit far out, but if anyone here lives in London and wants to try their hand at this: I run improv workshops. Usually for actors , but I’d love to do a HN session or two :) if there’s interest.
I will definitely make sure to tailor it 100% to be approachable by even the most awkward introverted IT’ers among us; I’ve been in the business for long enough to know how. No pressure, guaranteed. Sitting and watching for the entire workshop is also fine.
No charge beyond a few quid pp to cover a room. beyond that we just need an evening and some snacks.
My contact is in my profile; reply here or drop me a line—would be a lot of fun to make some magic happen!
I often have social anxiety and I can confirm these findings. Some years ago I did an improv class. First I was really scared but we did a lot of exercises where you really had no pressure to be funny but funny situations just developed without anyone trying. I learned to say "yes" to new things and go into the unknown without being scared.
It was super low pressure and very supportive and I would rate it in the top 5 of life transforming experiences for me. Others are travelling without preparation, joining Toastmasters and picking up martial arts.
This was basically folk knowledge when I was growing up in Brazil. Theater classes for teenagers were like 40% attractive people who want to make it as actors/60% awkward teens.
From a basic trust in the scientific process (but also noting the limits of scientific psychology) I figure that social anxiety and the like are serious mental illnesses. But I immigrated as a three-year old and didn't know the language/make any friends for a while, so my social skills always lagged. Theater lessons (some of which was improv, but we wrote our own sketches for a capstone play for our own families) sort of helped me balance that. If there was any anxiety it was secondary/symptomatic of some underdeveloped stuff, much like people develop math anxiety.
In retrospect, I attribute it to the "growth mindset" phenomenon: beginners make fools of themselves onstage whether they are awkward or easygoing, so you realize that being-comfortable-in-your-skin is something you can learn rather than something you were born without. Maybe this is what people are going to "hackathons" for - in a pressured time-boxed situation people are less likely to look down on the less math/programming-literate and help them instead.
“Make someone do something they’re afraid of at a level they can handle and they get better at it and less afraid”.
Not surprising. This is how I conquered my deep fear of flying. I took some flying lessons and even had the instructor do stalls and other scary stuff and I was 95% better afterward.
It’s so much easier to take a drug or blame biochemistry than to face your fears. I think it’s underrated in today’s world where there’s a handy diagnosis for everything.
Note: not casting aspersions on people with serious issues. But when 20% of the US population is supposed to have anxiety disorders, something doesn’t make sense.
> Note: not casting aspersions on people with serious issues. But when 20% of the US population is supposed to have anxiety disorders, something doesn’t make sense.
That's what happens when a culture undermines the virtues of independence, competence, stolidity, and maturity while venerating childishness. It's what happens when a culture overvalues safety and the avoidance of suffering and undervalues character. Coddled children turn into adults who lack the skills and experience to deal with hardship.
Exposure therapy is hard work. It requires calmly distancing yourself from your fears and anxieties, believing that they can be overcome in the first place, strategizing about how to overcome them, and carrying out actions that are genuinely terrifying to you. It requires valuing freedom from your own emotional limitations over freedom from discomfort. It requires preferring being capable over being comfortable. And that's a hard mindset to cultivate if you were raised in a society where parents sometimes get into legal trouble for letting their kids walk to school or sit outside in the car while they're grocery shopping.
20% of the US population does have anxiety disorders, because the US is suffering from a psychiatric epidemic.
That's pretty much exactly what CBT is, which we already know is effective and is already relevant as a "mainstream" treatment for mental illness ("have you seen a therapist?").
I think coming to the point where you're ready to "face your fears" may be the real difficulty, and not just because people are lazy, stupid, or "coddled". On the contrary, we as humans are really smart. The mind has developed complex strategies exactly for avoiding dealing with your fears.
I'm somewhat skeptical of these results. I'm a member of an (amateur) improv group. When I improvise, I often feel more nervous because I'm thinking about several things at once: acting, supporting my partner, finding the "game" of a scene. In this way, I can get "stuck" in my head much more than I would in everyday life. While it certainly feels great to have a good show or practice, it can feel pretty crappy to have a show that goes poorly. If I had problems with anxiety, I'm not sure that improv would help.
I’ve been taking improv classes for most of this year and I disagree with your conclusion.
You don’t heal from anxiety by hiding from anything scary. You get better by doing things you feel anxious about (and then not dying). And as for presence - if you’re getting stuck in your head while on stage, it becomes much harder to listen and be present to your scene partner and the needs of the scene. In my experience there’s a limit to how good your scenes can be if you’re in your head about them.
Improv for me has helped my mental health in lots of tiny ways - I’ve gotten better at visibly failing. I’ve gotten better at expressing negative emotion and I’ve gotten a lot more present. I feel like improv theatre is a microcosm of normal struggles; a lot of the long term issues that we face come up in improv too. And on stage you get the chance to face those demons in a safe, supportive environment surrounded by friends.
Being in your head is exactly this sort of developmental challenge. Your improv will (long term) get better if you get out of your head with it and instead be more present and intuitive. And that’s really important in regular life too. For people who struggle with that, what a perfect place to practice.
Personally I highly recommend doing some improv classes to anyone smart and creative who wants to push themselves and grow. It’s hard in the best way.
When you have anxiety your normal mode of being is similar to what you feel while doing improv. Probably even worse. You’re nervous, your thoughts are racing away, you have no internal focus or time to think about the actual situation, because you’re too busy worrying what everyone else is thinking.
I mean, that’s a normal train ride for me, and it’s not like you even have to talk to other people on the train.
It’s also why practice works. The point isn’t to stop being nervous, it’s to stop being terrified. I’m not sure improv is really better than focus groups designed specifically for people with with anxiety, but I can certainly see it being useful.
As you might’ve guessed I have anxiety. In my teens I literally couldn’t talk to people I didn’t know. I’d get red in the face and panic myself into being unable of speaking. Thanks to practice I’m now capable of doing stuff like: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Lk-4AFOw0tI without feeling fear.
I’m still working on my anxiety though, and part of my therapy is actually being part of a toastmaster group, because the only way to shred the fear,is to experience social situations. Especially ones that give you feedback on your performance, because it shows you, that you really have no clue what other people are thinking, and that what they think about you is mostly positive.
I imagine the idea is not to necessarily make these kids completely comfortable with doing improv, but use some of the improv skills in their daily life. So if they're able to do improv in front of a class, giving a speech might not feel as bad as it did before their improv experience. Or they might be able to go to the beach when before they were too anxious about being seen in a bathing suit.
Kind of an exposure therapy, but where the exposure isn't directly the situation they're anxious about.
I was wondering the same thing myself. I'm sure improvisation classes help some, but I suspect it also causes or exacerbates anxieties in others.
I for one do not have an anxiety problem in my day to day life. But having to take an improvisation class would cause anxiety and exacerbate it.
If anything, I think team sports or video games does a far better job of reducing anxieties in teens than anything. Though it can also cause anxiety. There isn't a silver bullet for any human condition since humans are a diverse group.
My take is that theater, or taking the stage in general, helps tremendously.
I remember being such a shy child that in school I couldn't even get myself to stand in line to the sink in which all the others were washing their hands before lunch.
My mother sent me to acting classes when I was eight or so and this experience changed me forever.
It's the sheer adrenaline of being at the center of attention with your group that does this - just about any social situation becomes manageable after that.
I'm a believer in these findings. I do wish that the model for learning improv in the private sector was different. As it is, adults have to move to cities where theaters are offering classes, then pay out for the classes (which can run up to $300-400 per 8-week class in the bigger schools). It's expensive, is the point, and this creates a barrier for people of a certain class. I'd love to see it offered in more high schools, or as a free-or-cheap activity akin to soccer or community theatre.
Don't even get me started on the level of privilege needed to pay through enough class levels to let one of the theaters audition you for their non-paying staff performer spots.
It's not as though improv teachers are walking around buying luxury vehicles, though. The classes are as expensive as they need to be for the instructors to eat.
There's nothing stopping people from starting up a community improv troupe without formal training from a teacher, just as you don't need someone with an MFA in Performance to start a community theater group. There are enough books out there on the art form that a dedicated group could learn the necessary techniques on their own.
And high-level youth soccer can be way more expensive than even UCB-level improv classes.
I've looked at acting classes, and even beginning classes are much more expensive (2-5x) than any other type of classes I've taken, like martial arts, music, or dance -- even private lessons.
Do dancers not need to eat? Do musicians not study as long to become competent teachers? Why is acting priced so different from every other art?
What aetimmes said. The cost of starting your own group is $0. People form their own hobby groups all the time. Joining your own baseball team, band, acting troupe, choir, carpentry club, etc. are all free; lessons in baseball, music, acting, and carpentry aren't.
> I'd love to see it offered in more high schools, or as a free-or-cheap activity akin to soccer or community theatre.
It is community theatre. Those are the same thing.
There is a whole other subculture around vr games such as rec room that could do this. You could probably create a room in rec room, advertise it on hn, and get enough people to create a community.
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This is significant to me, as I suspect many of the people with anxiety that is significant enough to be diagnosable would not be willing to do it or would pretty much shut down if placed in the setting.
To delve into personal anecdotes:
I had a theater class in school that regularly included improv exercises like described. In 11 years of it (K-10 or so), I don't think it ever went well.
The actual manifestation of the problem with "no script" was drawing a complete blank as soon as I was asked, not having a bunch of ideas I was scared to respond with.
It's certainly possible that these people have a better method, but I had multiple theater teachers and I was socially fine in normal settings. All these activities tended to do was give me more anxiety issues because everyone else could come up with things and I'd just be stuck there no matter how people tried to help me get going.
Those are not really common situations in adult life, but I'm still bad with "icebreaker" games and other similar things that "put me on the spot" to come up with something outside of normal social interactions.
My anecdote: theater/drama classes in middle and early high school don't count. You're mixed in with a bunch of teenagers who are only taking the class because either a) it's a mandatory class for all students; or b) more than half the class elected to take the class because it's "easy credit". When many/most of the students in a class aren't there because they actually want to explore the art, it ruins the entire dynamic. The same loudmouth bullies who cause trouble elsewhere in the school have an open season on the shy students; every step a socially awkward student tries to take to "open up" simply provides the bullies with more information they need to target the vulnerable.
Every participant must be present because they have a genuine interest to work with their teammates. Acceptance and cooperation are necessary in order to peel back social fear, and that means finding a group of like-minded people who show up to explore themselves and others around them.
And yes, it definitely trains you that there is no "right" way to have a conversation.
I think the main difficulty is that normal conversational success can be different than improv success. In improv, you want funny. Funny can be good in normal conversations, but most people are after other things. Understanding, support, connection, reflection. New improv people can be fantastically annoying if they use it as just another way to hide and deflect.
Sounds like a fantastic philosophy.
I've never witnessed improv (live performances). I had ignorantly equated improv with standup comedy, which I mostly dislike, for being mean spirited and punching down.
Live and learn.
Deleted Comment
How do you overcome fear? practice and progression.
What's improv? Practice and progression.
maybe a bit simplistic... but some answers are just that simple.
I will definitely make sure to tailor it 100% to be approachable by even the most awkward introverted IT’ers among us; I’ve been in the business for long enough to know how. No pressure, guaranteed. Sitting and watching for the entire workshop is also fine.
No charge beyond a few quid pp to cover a room. beyond that we just need an evening and some snacks.
My contact is in my profile; reply here or drop me a line—would be a lot of fun to make some magic happen!
It was super low pressure and very supportive and I would rate it in the top 5 of life transforming experiences for me. Others are travelling without preparation, joining Toastmasters and picking up martial arts.
From a basic trust in the scientific process (but also noting the limits of scientific psychology) I figure that social anxiety and the like are serious mental illnesses. But I immigrated as a three-year old and didn't know the language/make any friends for a while, so my social skills always lagged. Theater lessons (some of which was improv, but we wrote our own sketches for a capstone play for our own families) sort of helped me balance that. If there was any anxiety it was secondary/symptomatic of some underdeveloped stuff, much like people develop math anxiety.
In retrospect, I attribute it to the "growth mindset" phenomenon: beginners make fools of themselves onstage whether they are awkward or easygoing, so you realize that being-comfortable-in-your-skin is something you can learn rather than something you were born without. Maybe this is what people are going to "hackathons" for - in a pressured time-boxed situation people are less likely to look down on the less math/programming-literate and help them instead.
Not surprising. This is how I conquered my deep fear of flying. I took some flying lessons and even had the instructor do stalls and other scary stuff and I was 95% better afterward.
It’s so much easier to take a drug or blame biochemistry than to face your fears. I think it’s underrated in today’s world where there’s a handy diagnosis for everything.
Note: not casting aspersions on people with serious issues. But when 20% of the US population is supposed to have anxiety disorders, something doesn’t make sense.
That's what happens when a culture undermines the virtues of independence, competence, stolidity, and maturity while venerating childishness. It's what happens when a culture overvalues safety and the avoidance of suffering and undervalues character. Coddled children turn into adults who lack the skills and experience to deal with hardship.
Exposure therapy is hard work. It requires calmly distancing yourself from your fears and anxieties, believing that they can be overcome in the first place, strategizing about how to overcome them, and carrying out actions that are genuinely terrifying to you. It requires valuing freedom from your own emotional limitations over freedom from discomfort. It requires preferring being capable over being comfortable. And that's a hard mindset to cultivate if you were raised in a society where parents sometimes get into legal trouble for letting their kids walk to school or sit outside in the car while they're grocery shopping.
20% of the US population does have anxiety disorders, because the US is suffering from a psychiatric epidemic.
I think coming to the point where you're ready to "face your fears" may be the real difficulty, and not just because people are lazy, stupid, or "coddled". On the contrary, we as humans are really smart. The mind has developed complex strategies exactly for avoiding dealing with your fears.
And if it all goes terribly wrong there’s still powerful drugs for that too. So what is there to lose I say.
You don’t heal from anxiety by hiding from anything scary. You get better by doing things you feel anxious about (and then not dying). And as for presence - if you’re getting stuck in your head while on stage, it becomes much harder to listen and be present to your scene partner and the needs of the scene. In my experience there’s a limit to how good your scenes can be if you’re in your head about them.
Improv for me has helped my mental health in lots of tiny ways - I’ve gotten better at visibly failing. I’ve gotten better at expressing negative emotion and I’ve gotten a lot more present. I feel like improv theatre is a microcosm of normal struggles; a lot of the long term issues that we face come up in improv too. And on stage you get the chance to face those demons in a safe, supportive environment surrounded by friends.
Being in your head is exactly this sort of developmental challenge. Your improv will (long term) get better if you get out of your head with it and instead be more present and intuitive. And that’s really important in regular life too. For people who struggle with that, what a perfect place to practice.
Personally I highly recommend doing some improv classes to anyone smart and creative who wants to push themselves and grow. It’s hard in the best way.
I mean, that’s a normal train ride for me, and it’s not like you even have to talk to other people on the train.
It’s also why practice works. The point isn’t to stop being nervous, it’s to stop being terrified. I’m not sure improv is really better than focus groups designed specifically for people with with anxiety, but I can certainly see it being useful.
As you might’ve guessed I have anxiety. In my teens I literally couldn’t talk to people I didn’t know. I’d get red in the face and panic myself into being unable of speaking. Thanks to practice I’m now capable of doing stuff like: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Lk-4AFOw0tI without feeling fear.
I’m still working on my anxiety though, and part of my therapy is actually being part of a toastmaster group, because the only way to shred the fear,is to experience social situations. Especially ones that give you feedback on your performance, because it shows you, that you really have no clue what other people are thinking, and that what they think about you is mostly positive.
Kind of an exposure therapy, but where the exposure isn't directly the situation they're anxious about.
I for one do not have an anxiety problem in my day to day life. But having to take an improvisation class would cause anxiety and exacerbate it.
If anything, I think team sports or video games does a far better job of reducing anxieties in teens than anything. Though it can also cause anxiety. There isn't a silver bullet for any human condition since humans are a diverse group.
I remember being such a shy child that in school I couldn't even get myself to stand in line to the sink in which all the others were washing their hands before lunch.
My mother sent me to acting classes when I was eight or so and this experience changed me forever.
It's the sheer adrenaline of being at the center of attention with your group that does this - just about any social situation becomes manageable after that.
Don't even get me started on the level of privilege needed to pay through enough class levels to let one of the theaters audition you for their non-paying staff performer spots.
There's nothing stopping people from starting up a community improv troupe without formal training from a teacher, just as you don't need someone with an MFA in Performance to start a community theater group. There are enough books out there on the art form that a dedicated group could learn the necessary techniques on their own.
And high-level youth soccer can be way more expensive than even UCB-level improv classes.
Do dancers not need to eat? Do musicians not study as long to become competent teachers? Why is acting priced so different from every other art?
> I'd love to see it offered in more high schools, or as a free-or-cheap activity akin to soccer or community theatre.
It is community theatre. Those are the same thing.
I doubt there is an improv cartel propping up prices.