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Posted by u/dvnguyen 7 years ago
Ask HN: As a programmer, how do you know if you're a good one or not?
I always want to be a better version of myself, but it's unclear how to quantify my quality. In sporting, there're many stats about athletes to look at. In academia, you can look at some indirect indexes about your research quality. But as a programmer at work, I often receive feedbacks from 1 or 2 persons at most. It's easy to think that I'm good enough, when the truth may be not.

So, as a programmer, how do you quantify or estimate how good you are?

Thank you,

bb88 · 7 years ago
You're asking the wrong question. You should be asking "Am I an efficient or effective programmer?"

  Do I get things in on time / under budget?
  Do I avoid common programming pitfalls?
  Do I solve more problems than I create?
  Do I see simple solutions to complex problems?
  Can I refactor terrible code to more easily maintained code?
  Can I avoid terribly written code in the first place?
  Can I effectively communicate with people in order to get the answers I need without wasting their time with needless questions?
Then you know you're effective when:

  You're asked for help often.
  You're the go to person by the boss.
  You're often asked for your opinion for engineering decisions.
  Your opinion holds weight with others.

hyperpallium · 7 years ago
"Am I an affective programmer?"

    Does my code make people feel good?
    Does it automate some user task?
    Does it make some user task easier?
    Does it amplify users' powers?
    Does it create value, by my definition of "valuable"?
Of course, these are outcomes/benefits, not the technical role of programming within an organization. But apt if you see yourself, fellow programmers and company members as "users" also.

> I read a study that measured the efficiency of locomotion for various species on the planet. The condor used the least energy to move a kilometer. And, humans came in with a rather unimpressive showing, about a third of the way down the list. It was not too proud a showing for the crown of creation. So, that didn’t look so good. But, then somebody at Scientific American had the insight to test the efficiency of locomotion for a man on a bicycle. And, a man on a bicycle, a human on a bicycle, blew the condor away, completely off the top of the charts. https://www.brainpickings.org/2011/12/21/steve-jobs-bicycle-... https://youtube.com/watch?v=0lvMgMrNDlg

> ... There need be no real danger of it ever becoming a drudge, for any processes that are quite mechanical may be turned over to the machine itself. https://wikiquote.org/wiki/Alan_Turing

hdkmraf · 7 years ago
Wow, this is such an eye opener. I have always considered myself an ok programmer, but always struggling with trying to be effective.

Your four points on effectiveness happen to me on a daily basis, but I tend to see them as annoyances, mind you, I rarely refuse to help and advice. This gives a whole new light and meaning to all those interruptions.

bb88 · 7 years ago
Developers can often be "force-multipliers" even if they don't see it themselves. Yes there's the 10x developer that can get 10x done than the average person.

But there's also the 10x dev that can help others be 10x more effective. Those types see a problem, and write an insanely useful tool.

Also, welcome to thinking like a manager.

zumu · 7 years ago
Aside from the first question (may first 2 questions), the top questions are arguably more qualitative than quantitative.

> Do I solve more problems than I create?

Who judges what constitutes a problem? How do you know when you've created a problem?

> Do I see simple solutions to complex problems?

Define 'simple'.

> Can I refactor terrible code to more easily maintained code?

Define 'terrible'. How does one know what code is more easily maintained?

> Can I avoid terribly written code in the first place?

See above.

> Can I effectively communicate with people in order to get the answers I need without wasting their time with needless questions?

What constitutes "effective" communication? What are "needless" questions?

I generally agree with the questions, but I would imagine most programmers could read them and think, "I must be pretty effective."

pjc50 · 7 years ago
> Aside from the first question (may first 2 questions), the top questions are arguably more qualitative than quantitative.

What's wrong with that?

emmelaich · 7 years ago
... and as in everything, don't trust your own instinct on this; work closely with others to get a true sense of where you stand.
acct1771 · 7 years ago
You're compensated better than your peers, and there's no extenuating circumstances surrounding that.
xfitm3 · 7 years ago
The problem with measuring effective is that it is quite subjective. Politics can skew those results.
pjc50 · 7 years ago
That's a skill like any other. If you're conspicuously bad at politics it can make you ineffective - you or your work will be sidelined or abandoned.
camel_gopher · 7 years ago
One of my gotos has been 'Can I avoid writing code in the first place?'

Zero code has zero bugs, and zero maintenance cost.

gitgud · 7 years ago
A great programmer is like a peaceful master samurai, he first tries all other options before resorting to violence (code) he may also reduce violence (code) where ever he goes ...
neptunius · 7 years ago
Hbthegreat · 7 years ago
This is the correct answer
snackbugs · 7 years ago
No, it just means your boss likes you.
gnahckire · 7 years ago
> You're asked for help often.

Could also mean you write unreadable code and, by extension, unmaintainable code.

> You're the go to person by the boss.

Could also mean you write unreadable code.

judge2020 · 7 years ago
> Could also mean you write unreadable code and, by extension, unmaintainable code.

In this situation, I think the context is when a colleague is asking for help with their own code/writing a new feature and wants input from someone well-versed.

smilesnd · 7 years ago
Programming is a craft once you reach a certain level their is no checklist or metric that can be used to measure you ability. Only experience and battle scars tell how good you might be when solving the next problem.

Only ever measure yourself against yourself. As long as you make sure you are a better programmer today then yesterday then you have nothing to worry about.

l0b0 · 7 years ago
This. After 15 years as a professional developer I have a fairly good idea where my boundaries are, and that's about it.

Expect to learn new things every day, and from every conceivable source: your fellow developers, junior and senior, of course, but also your PM (for example, prioritization, techniques to organize work), designers (information flow, HCI), business analysts (how the client ticks), etc.. Very likely everyone you ever worked with could teach you something, and you'll never have time to learn it all.

jakegarelick · 7 years ago
100% agreed. At the risk of sounding dismissive (not my intention) it doesn’t matter whether you’re a “good” programmer or not.

Stop trying to measure yourself or others, get in there and code.

_hardwaregeek · 7 years ago
I put in the work. I once heard a very good fencer say that the way they keep calm during competitions is to tell themselves that they've put in the hours of training and the blood, sweat and tears necessary to win. I spend hours of my days writing code, reading about how to become a better programmer, constantly analyzing my work and finding ways to improve. I'm not going to spend my time worrying about whether I'm a good programmer. I will be a good programmer.
lolc · 7 years ago
Hours of deliberate practice is said to be the deciding factor in how good you are. Or at least, we can't be good without it. So yes, counting the hours we spent writing and analyzing code gives us an idea of how good we might be as programmers.
scarecrowbob · 7 years ago
This is a general problem.

In sports, for most people, staistics are meaningless. I climb 5.10 okay... am I good climber? I'm not world class, but I do stuff that I like.

I've been an academic. I know I was a bad one, because in retrospect I had to step away from a lot of my ideas and research... at the end, I didn't see value in the projects I was doing.

As a programmer... who knows. I don't usually have a lot of problems coming back to old projects and building new stuff. I don't have a lot of systems I put together breaking down and requiring work. I know that there are at least 10-20 other folks think I am good, because I've solved things for them and they have told me I am good.

But I just build CRUD apps, admin some linux servers, and put together custom code for WordPress. Some folks would look at that pile of day-to-day tech cruft and say that I am not even a "real" programmer (even if I do know how to implement a buffer with TTL and I've written toy mouse drivers and serial implementations).

All that comes down to this: it really comes down to you and your goals, and what you want to get out of your life. You are the only measure of what you consider to be a good person. Most of us are sane enough to peg that estimation to feedback we get from other people. But fundamentally the metrics are still our own.

keithnz · 7 years ago
Programming is an open ended non competitive (generally) activity. I don't think there is any meaning in trying to quantify "goodness" and in fact might blind you to possibilities.

So, for myself, the thing I pay attention to is my ease of expressing the things I want to create. I also pay attention to my ability to produce things with certain "qualities" correctness, simplicity, and how modular and composable my code is. There is no objective measure of those things and my understanding of those things constantly expands. I learn these things through by my own experience and looking at what other people are doing and having in depth discussions about programming ( and outside of programming ).

So I have no idea how good I am, but I have confidence in what things I can create and confidence in my ability to learn more.

vi1rus · 7 years ago
Does my code still make sense to me 6 months later?

Did I introduce new bugs?

Are people using my building blocks to add features or working around them/ redoing them?

These are not good metrics. I have researched this and it seems there is no good way to measure coding improvement except subjective measurements.

hnruss · 7 years ago
There are many ways to quantify how good of a programmer you are.

- You can compare yourself to other developers (there are plenty of qualities to compare)

- You can review your statistics (commit frequency, average file size, accuracy of time estimates)

- You can compete in programming competitions

- You can evaluate yourself using the Programmer Competency Matrix: https://sijinjoseph.com/programmer-competency-matrix/

Also, "Good" is subjective. Some programmers are "good" in certain contexts, but "not good" in others.

sizeofchar · 7 years ago
Wow, this competency matrix is very useful. Thanks for sharing!
rammy1234 · 7 years ago
1. read others code. think. ask questions. why and how certain code is written in certain way.

2. Read more code.

3. Write more code.

4. If your code which you wrote few years back looks bad to you, then you are on right path.

5. How much you understand the core concepts. New languages and frameworks are more of an glitter.

6. You want to be better version of yourself, then your progess is your stats you need look at. How many books did you read year on year? How much code you read year on year ? How much code you wrote ? How much fun you had :)

7. Adding, if you can think of the future maintainer of your code in mind and code, then you are lot better than many programmers out there in business.

8. Try to be a clean code enthusiast.

dintech · 7 years ago
> 4. If your code which you wrote few years back looks bad to you, then you are on right path.

What if the recent stuff looks bad too? :)

screaminghawk · 7 years ago
Then why are you writing it?
taneq · 7 years ago
Then you're normal?