Chinese brands get constantly harassed by Apple lawyers in the US about patents. Now that China is an important market for Apple, I find it hard to feel sorry for Apple getting a taste of their own medicine.
Yup, used to work for HTC and some of the bullshit that Apple used to pull still pisses me off to this day.
Remember the whole "click on a phone-number launch dialer" patent? We pulled the feature in the US phones, following the letter of the law since we lost the suit(back when Apple was going for Mfgrs instead of Google).
Apple filed an injunction with Customs right as we went into a huge marketing push for one of our devices. We had millions of phones sitting on the docks while FTC "investigated". 4-5 weeks later it was found that we hadn't violated, Apple never paid any fines and we had a ton of pissed off customers who couldn't get phones.
China is great in many ways, but it's IP / Copyright protection is abysmal and is used by the state as propaganda / propaganda control.
Portray China negatively in a film? Oh look, no sales the few theatres that are showing it have the scenes altered and of course don't pay royalties.
Neutrally portray China? Oh look about 1% of the royalties you were supposed to get.
Portray China positively? Blockbuster Chinese release. Unprecedented sales, collect nearly 80% of the royalties you were supposed to.
They have the same Real Politik handle on technology. They're not going to respect American Patents until it suits them. Not to say we're blameless; but if it is too asymmetrical I could see the west imposing levies to rectify the imbalance.
The US needs to set some ground rules with our Chinese rivals...
Start with requiring occupancy of all homes held by foreign nationals, trusts or investment groups, or you pay enormous property tax increases.
Then you require all US businesses selling consumer products to staff at least 1 US resident inspector for each stage of the supply chain from raw goods to finished product. If the host country doesn't like it, then you can't do business with that host country. This inspector may be called before Congress to answer personally (with jail time) for any human rights abuses not reported in the supply chain.
Hmm I feel quite the opposite here. China has a, um, less than stellar record when it comes to prosecuting Chinese companies that engage in IP theft and patent infringement. But then they want to get high and mighty when the shoe is on the other foot...
"Own medicine?" Have you somehow missed China's bizarre and BLATANT copying and ripoffs of just about every single popular product on the planet for the last two decades?
I live in a third-world country, where it has become almost impossible to get basic stuff (tools, lights, everyday household items) that doesn't break down after a month thanks to cheap Chinese knockoffs shamelessly muscling every other company off the local market. Almost nobody wants to stock "genuine" brands.
Even if I wasn't an Apple fan I would be rooting for them here; they seem to be the only company big enough to fight back against China's crap.
"Almost impossible" may be a slight exaggeration in a few major cities here, but otherwise the frustration still holds true.
The worst part about this glut of Chinese products is that there's no one to complain to; nowhere to get customer support from, and you can't easily know who to avoid either because one company may make essentially the same thing in a hundred different guises with slight visual variation but the same lack of quality or safety control.
As for all the imitations, I don't even know why they do this. Why pretend to be a popular brand (sometimes with a slightly different logo and/or a typo in the name) instead of selling your own product and identity? Why make people the world over have to be consciously vigilant about avoiding Chinese imitations? What are they hoping to prove?
Back in the 80s and early 90s, "Made in Japan" became a synonym for quality and people sought out products with that written on them. China may have made their name globally relevant but to the general public it has become synonymous with shoddiness.
That's how design patents work in the USA, also. If you can get secret designs from a competitor and patent them first, you can then wait for the product to become popular and sue.
And design patents are not considered to require examination as to content in the USA. They're just approved if the forms are filled out correctly.
And if any part of the design of a product (even just one rounded corner on a $700 phone) resembles a patented design, you're entitled to 100% of the profit ever made on that product in the USA. China is nowhere near that shifty.
Is there a name for a logical fallacy where actions are claimed to be morally equivalent if merely their shapes are the same and regardless of the details?
- Atheists are "just as bad as" [insert religious group with millennia-old history of atrocities.] -- Just because they both try to convince you of something.
- Politician A is "just as corrupt as" Politician B. -- Nevermind that A just gave his cousin a job, while B gave away $500B in contracts to his sponsors.
Not hard to believe, but would it be possible to provide an example or two of Apple winning a patent claim in court via a ruling in China? I would find it hard to believe the for a valid claim that just because a company is Chinese that it would have any impact on a case in the America.
While not a Chinese company, I remember Samsung winning an ITC import ban of Apple products. Obama promptly overturned/vetoed the ban[1]. I do not doubt for a second that american institutions (especially the executive) do what is best for "American Interests"
I read it as, the Chinese companies (or their US subsidiary) get sued in US courts for US patents. With that reading, I'm not sure your request makes sense.
That's a rather imbalanced perspective. China has grown not through organic development and innovation, but through global, state sponsored, commercial espionage; and in a country where the state is inextricably linked to even the "private" corporations.
I'm no fan of Apple's ways sometimes, but it's like comparing a borderline unscrupulous business to an organized crime outfit.
It would not surprise me one bit if this whole "patent violation" is nothing but a sham to fool people like you into believing there's some legitimacy behind efforts to sabotage Apple taking over the market from Chinese firms / state control.
Quite condescending. Definitely not what I expect from a post on hacker news. There was no mention that these companies created Chinese knockoffs. On the other hand, I see it as a patent dispute by predatory companies.
>> Now that China is an important market for Apple, I find it hard to feel sorry for Apple getting a taste of their own medicine.
Even if the plaintiff is a patent troll, or merely an obscure company with a bogus patent? Even if this "patent tribunal" ruled incorrectly because of bias toward the domestic company? Even if the tribunal had been bribed by the company (pure speculation, but bribery is how you get things done in China's bureaucracy)?
I don't tend to have emotions one way or the other about these kinds of commercial and legal disputes, but corruption and patent trolling seems a lot more likely than big evil Apple stealing the innocent Baili Co.'s intellectual property and getting their comeuppance.
The big picture here is not whether this ruling is just. It's that China has protectionist impulses, and that if Apple is to maintain the kind of volume of smartphone sales that propelled it to its 2015 valuation, it needs China. And China may be inclined to throw up a bunch of nasty speedbumps in its way.
That said, there's plenty of value in Apple selling iPhones at the rate necessary to maintain the mostly saturated markets in the West, so don't get myopically focused on China.
The idea that China is doing anything that the US wouldn't is ridiculous, every country engages in this stuff the only difference how is complex the US, UK and other Western countries do it. China does it simplistically and obviously, but meh... every country does it, and Apple have been wrong to encourage this stuff to their advantage when everything comes around eventually.
Exactly, China's massive cheap labor force and emerging markets give it the position of "fuck you". China knows that first world TNCs want a piece of the pie and China is grooming it's domestic (see "state run") corporations to reap the benefits.
Samsung has been copying Apple to the millimeter, they have discovered a book with ways they should copy Apple, and they were spreading misinformation to the consumer like "Samsung makes the iPhone for Apple", or "it's like the iPhone, but bigger and better", and other BS.
Also, there is no problem in making a rectangular phone, but making the edges EXACTLY the same radius as Apple's? That ridiculous.
Samsung more than deserved what they got, from their advertising, where they attacked Apple users and offended them. For that reason, I will never buy a Samsung device, even if it's 100x better and 1/100 of the price of an Apple's (or everyone else) equivalent.
And their unilateral comparisons to Apple on their product announcements? Ahah, ridiculous!
I don't read Chinese and the patent isn't translated. Anyone have any idea what Apple violated? It's interesting, in a country where you HAVE to give up IP to competing companies to enter the market, that there can be any IP disputes - considering much of what Apple has done is directly copied into Chinese goods.
If that rule didn't exist, China would be a 3rd world economy still stuck making shitty goods.
Really not that true; meaning yes, China copies a lot, but so does everyone and being able to copy someone takes skill. Look no further that the American auto industry for a historical example of this.
1. China isn't and hasn't been third world by definition. It's second world.
2. Lots of E Asian countries with similar workforces developed without stealing IP. The strong arm tactics against foreigners are a way for the Chinese government to control local industries, not to grow them. It slows down economic development but keeps it under the thumb of the Communist Party.
Strange that this only has any effect in Beijing, despite the company being based in Shenzhen. Do China's lowest-level courts only have citywide jurisdiction?
If US patent decisions only applied to the location a suit was tried in, I suppose we'd have a lot fewer filed in East Texas.
Yet another cell phone patent dispute. Except for one thing: "Beijing" is not being used here as a metonym for "the Chinese government." It means Beijing. The city of Beijing, which apparently has its own intellectual property authority. Do other cities also have their own IP authorities? Apparently yes:
Civil enforcement of IPR in China is a two-track system. The first is the administrative track....Set up in the provinces and some cities, these local government offices operate as a quasi-judicial authority and are staffed with people who specialize in their respective areas of IP law. If they are satisfied with an IPR holder’s complaint, they investigate. The authorities can issue injunctions to bring a halt to the infringement, and they can even enlist the police to assist in enforcing their orders.
How about that? Cities can't award monetary damages, but they can order your product off the shelves.
China is not that different from the west in that respect in many cases. They are making massive strides in certain areas of renewable energy and other environmental issues because it started affecting the bottom line by a mix of costs to the economy (through public health issues and related) & international reputation (as far as that affects investment from outside) and uncertainty in the economy (due to predicted problems otherwise sourcing enough fossil fuels at reasonable cost in the not too distant future if things keep growing at the intended rate).
Companies and governments care when it costs them not to.
Apple will be able to appeal this and continue selling phones in the mean time. Pretty interesting regardless considering their investment in Didi last month to gain favor with Beijing.
Two possible takes are that this is either a low enough court that the judge had autonomy in his ruling and wasn't influenced by the investment, or Beijing is sending a message that the Didi investment will not grant Apple any sort of impunity going forward.
Readit News
Remember the whole "click on a phone-number launch dialer" patent? We pulled the feature in the US phones, following the letter of the law since we lost the suit(back when Apple was going for Mfgrs instead of Google).
Apple filed an injunction with Customs right as we went into a huge marketing push for one of our devices. We had millions of phones sitting on the docks while FTC "investigated". 4-5 weeks later it was found that we hadn't violated, Apple never paid any fines and we had a ton of pissed off customers who couldn't get phones.
http://www.wired.com/2012/05/apples-patent-win-delays-shipme...
China is great in many ways, but it's IP / Copyright protection is abysmal and is used by the state as propaganda / propaganda control.
Portray China negatively in a film? Oh look, no sales the few theatres that are showing it have the scenes altered and of course don't pay royalties.
Neutrally portray China? Oh look about 1% of the royalties you were supposed to get.
Portray China positively? Blockbuster Chinese release. Unprecedented sales, collect nearly 80% of the royalties you were supposed to.
They have the same Real Politik handle on technology. They're not going to respect American Patents until it suits them. Not to say we're blameless; but if it is too asymmetrical I could see the west imposing levies to rectify the imbalance.
Start with requiring occupancy of all homes held by foreign nationals, trusts or investment groups, or you pay enormous property tax increases.
Then you require all US businesses selling consumer products to staff at least 1 US resident inspector for each stage of the supply chain from raw goods to finished product. If the host country doesn't like it, then you can't do business with that host country. This inspector may be called before Congress to answer personally (with jail time) for any human rights abuses not reported in the supply chain.
I live in a third-world country, where it has become almost impossible to get basic stuff (tools, lights, everyday household items) that doesn't break down after a month thanks to cheap Chinese knockoffs shamelessly muscling every other company off the local market. Almost nobody wants to stock "genuine" brands.
Even if I wasn't an Apple fan I would be rooting for them here; they seem to be the only company big enough to fight back against China's crap.
The worst part about this glut of Chinese products is that there's no one to complain to; nowhere to get customer support from, and you can't easily know who to avoid either because one company may make essentially the same thing in a hundred different guises with slight visual variation but the same lack of quality or safety control.
As for all the imitations, I don't even know why they do this. Why pretend to be a popular brand (sometimes with a slightly different logo and/or a typo in the name) instead of selling your own product and identity? Why make people the world over have to be consciously vigilant about avoiding Chinese imitations? What are they hoping to prove?
Back in the 80s and early 90s, "Made in Japan" became a synonym for quality and people sought out products with that written on them. China may have made their name globally relevant but to the general public it has become synonymous with shoddiness.
This would not be the first time this happened:
http://www.androidauthority.com/goophone-sue-apple-china-112...
And design patents are not considered to require examination as to content in the USA. They're just approved if the forms are filled out correctly.
And if any part of the design of a product (even just one rounded corner on a $700 phone) resembles a patented design, you're entitled to 100% of the profit ever made on that product in the USA. China is nowhere near that shifty.
It's very different from the 6, and Apple has launched the iPod Touch in 2012, which is practically identical to the 2014 iPhone 6.
I see it all the time on the Internet:
- Atheists are "just as bad as" [insert religious group with millennia-old history of atrocities.] -- Just because they both try to convince you of something.
- Politician A is "just as corrupt as" Politician B. -- Nevermind that A just gave his cousin a job, while B gave away $500B in contracts to his sponsors.
1. http://www.fastcompany.com/3015243/where-are-they-now/obama-...
Deleted Comment
I'm no fan of Apple's ways sometimes, but it's like comparing a borderline unscrupulous business to an organized crime outfit.
It would not surprise me one bit if this whole "patent violation" is nothing but a sham to fool people like you into believing there's some legitimacy behind efforts to sabotage Apple taking over the market from Chinese firms / state control.
now where is the iphone produced again? it's a chinese phone sans the IP (designed by apple in cali).
Even if the plaintiff is a patent troll, or merely an obscure company with a bogus patent? Even if this "patent tribunal" ruled incorrectly because of bias toward the domestic company? Even if the tribunal had been bribed by the company (pure speculation, but bribery is how you get things done in China's bureaucracy)?
I don't tend to have emotions one way or the other about these kinds of commercial and legal disputes, but corruption and patent trolling seems a lot more likely than big evil Apple stealing the innocent Baili Co.'s intellectual property and getting their comeuppance.
That said, there's plenty of value in Apple selling iPhones at the rate necessary to maintain the mostly saturated markets in the West, so don't get myopically focused on China.
So do US juries, hence the Apple lawyers continually referring to Samsung as Samsung Korea.
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/03/as-4th-trial-near...
The idea that China is doing anything that the US wouldn't is ridiculous, every country engages in this stuff the only difference how is complex the US, UK and other Western countries do it. China does it simplistically and obviously, but meh... every country does it, and Apple have been wrong to encourage this stuff to their advantage when everything comes around eventually.
I seem to remember in the Apple v. Samsung case there were several of these on concepts like "a rectangular phone form factor" or similar...
From illiterate journos or YouTube comments?
Apple sued Samsung for cloning.
Samsung has been copying Apple to the millimeter, they have discovered a book with ways they should copy Apple, and they were spreading misinformation to the consumer like "Samsung makes the iPhone for Apple", or "it's like the iPhone, but bigger and better", and other BS.
Also, there is no problem in making a rectangular phone, but making the edges EXACTLY the same radius as Apple's? That ridiculous.
Samsung more than deserved what they got, from their advertising, where they attacked Apple users and offended them. For that reason, I will never buy a Samsung device, even if it's 100x better and 1/100 of the price of an Apple's (or everyone else) equivalent.
And their unilateral comparisons to Apple on their product announcements? Ahah, ridiculous!
If that rule didn't exist, China would be a 3rd world economy still stuck making shitty goods.
2. Lots of E Asian countries with similar workforces developed without stealing IP. The strong arm tactics against foreigners are a way for the Chinese government to control local industries, not to grow them. It slows down economic development but keeps it under the thumb of the Communist Party.
If US patent decisions only applied to the location a suit was tried in, I suppose we'd have a lot fewer filed in East Texas.
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/06/china-has-whol...
Yet another cell phone patent dispute. Except for one thing: "Beijing" is not being used here as a metonym for "the Chinese government." It means Beijing. The city of Beijing, which apparently has its own intellectual property authority. Do other cities also have their own IP authorities? Apparently yes:
{quotes: http://www.chinabusinessreview.com/enforcing-intellectual-pr...}
Civil enforcement of IPR in China is a two-track system. The first is the administrative track....Set up in the provinces and some cities, these local government offices operate as a quasi-judicial authority and are staffed with people who specialize in their respective areas of IP law. If they are satisfied with an IPR holder’s complaint, they investigate. The authorities can issue injunctions to bring a halt to the infringement, and they can even enlist the police to assist in enforcing their orders.
How about that? Cities can't award monetary damages, but they can order your product off the shelves.
That said, I'm sure apple can afford to pay or lawyer their way out of this.
Apple wasn't barred after all...
China is not that different from the west in that respect in many cases. They are making massive strides in certain areas of renewable energy and other environmental issues because it started affecting the bottom line by a mix of costs to the economy (through public health issues and related) & international reputation (as far as that affects investment from outside) and uncertainty in the economy (due to predicted problems otherwise sourcing enough fossil fuels at reasonable cost in the not too distant future if things keep growing at the intended rate).
Companies and governments care when it costs them not to.
Two possible takes are that this is either a low enough court that the judge had autonomy in his ruling and wasn't influenced by the investment, or Beijing is sending a message that the Didi investment will not grant Apple any sort of impunity going forward.