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vegai_ commented on WikiLeaks is struggling to stay online as millions of documents disappear   dailydot.com/debug/wikile... · Posted by u/danso
dijit · 3 years ago
It has become very popular among certain political groups to reference Karl Popper's "Paradox of Tolerance" in order to justify silencing of people they disagree with.

However, "we must not tolerate the intolerant" seriously misrepresents the actual argument.

It was not intended as an enthusiastic endorsement of silencing tactics. It is an uneasy acknowledgement that liberal ideals, if embraced completely, leave the door open to the destruction of liberalism. It presents a question with no comfortable solution. It is absolutely not a demand that we trample the rights of people whose ideas we don't like.

Here's the actual argument:

> Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.—In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.

First of all, it is not talking simply about tolerance but about "unlimited tolerance." It's not saying you should extend no tolerance to the intolerant, simply that you should not extend unlimited tolerance to them.

Nobody is suggesting unlimited tolerance, the parent is merely positing introspection on matters of our position in the world.

Our enemies become our leaders, if/when our leaders move against our interests as a country surreptitiously and the subsequently keep knowledge of wrongdoing from us.

in this case: the enemy of my enemy is my friend, but only since our enemy seeks to enlighten us.

Our leaders should be scared of this, and act in our interests accordingly and with transparency. This is the only way to build trust, and would completely eliminate any power our foreign adversaries would have in destroying trust in political power.

I would much prefer that knowledge come from proper journalistic methods, but given the fact that only a handful of people own all the news media, and the US has been so extremely heavy on any whistleblower journalism: I fear that we have to take what we can get; and I do not say that with happiness or pride... I say that as a person who feels utterly defeated by the crushing weight of the state and the fact that all my heroes are in prison or exile.

vegai_ · 3 years ago
> It is absolutely not a demand that we trample the rights of people whose ideas we don't like.

Good, because that's not what I'm advocating. I'm not advocating an act of destroying Wikileaks, I'm advocating for it getting destroyed by omitting active support to it.

vegai_ commented on WikiLeaks is struggling to stay online as millions of documents disappear   dailydot.com/debug/wikile... · Posted by u/danso
aa-jv · 3 years ago
What a nonsense narrative. You don't get to choose which corruption is more morally substantive than the other.

America is the worlds #1 funder of terrorism. How about we start addressing that, as elite members of the 1%?

vegai_ · 3 years ago
Completely irrelevant. The relevant thing is that the West need not tolerate pro-Russia entities, especially in these times. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

Funding them would be completely ludicrous, as smart as sawing the branch you're sitting on.

Dead Comment

vegai_ commented on IRCv3 2022 Spec round-up   ircv3.net/2022/11/20/spec... · Posted by u/buovjaga
bgitarts · 3 years ago
Unfortunately IRC has failed to keep up with the U/X of centralized chat services like discord which is a shame because an open protocol chat seems needed for the internet.

Why does open protocol usually mean crippled U/X?

vegai_ · 3 years ago
Irssi's UX is better than that of any other chat software, though. Why it hasn't been replicated for things like XMPP and Matrix is probably due to the more difficult and featureful state transitions of those protocols.
vegai_ commented on Mastodon: A Social Media Platform Dominated by Pedophiles and Child Porn   secjuice.com/mastodon-chi... · Posted by u/RadixDLT
vegai_ · 3 years ago
I hope they use Mastodon. Because then it'll be trivial for authorities to find out and seize the offending server and probably most of the users if it's part of the global federation.
vegai_ commented on Easy Interfaces with Zig 0.10   zig.news/kristoff/easy-in... · Posted by u/todsacerdoti
eska · 3 years ago
The comment you’re referring to merely refrains from making a value judgment, while you’re turning it into an approval of OOP.
vegai_ · 3 years ago
>Thinking in OOP terms in, say, Java is great.

How did you interpret this statement?

vegai_ commented on Easy Interfaces with Zig 0.10   zig.news/kristoff/easy-in... · Posted by u/todsacerdoti
matheusmoreira · 3 years ago
People spend entire careers thinking about object-oriented programming?
vegai_ · 3 years ago
Heh. I'm sure they thought and worked on others things too, but many focused on it, yes.
vegai_ commented on Easy Interfaces with Zig 0.10   zig.news/kristoff/easy-in... · Posted by u/todsacerdoti
kristoff_it · 3 years ago
> before claiming that a few syntax tricks is all it takes to outsmart people who spent their entire university careers thinking about these problems

I don't think I have written anything of that sort. Thinking in OOP terms in, say, Java is great. Zig is not an OOP language though, and it cares about mapping nicely to CPU instructions more than it cares about mapping nicely to UML diagrams, so thinking in OOP terms in Zig is not that great, more often than not.

I've seen plenty of people coming into Zig expecting it to conform to their expectations towards object orientation or functional purity. Neither will be able to have a good time if they can't let go of their preconceptions.

vegai_ · 3 years ago
Sorry for misunderstanding the mood and context. In context of Zig, this makes a lot of sense, making my calls for humility premature and tad ironic.
vegai_ commented on Easy Interfaces with Zig 0.10   zig.news/kristoff/easy-in... · Posted by u/todsacerdoti
hsn915 · 3 years ago
No.
vegai_ · 3 years ago
Well, you've met one now, so you can update that assumption. And also if you look higher up this thread, the author of this article takes it seriously as well. So that's two already in a pretty short time!
vegai_ commented on Easy Interfaces with Zig 0.10   zig.news/kristoff/easy-in... · Posted by u/todsacerdoti
hsn915 · 3 years ago
Nah, OOP is bad. It's been a while since I met anyone, online or offline, who still takes OOP seriously.
vegai_ · 3 years ago
/s, right?

u/vegai_

KarmaCake day495June 9, 2020View Original