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s73v3r_ commented on Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines   lists.gnu.org/archive/htm... · Posted by u/stargrave
dang · 7 years ago
Please stop using HN primarily for ideological battle. We've discussed this before, but you've reverted with a vengeance. If that doesn't change, we're going to end up having to ban you again.
s73v3r_ · 7 years ago
That was not ideological battle. That was responding to someone that their concern over civility was misplaced.
s73v3r_ commented on Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines   lists.gnu.org/archive/htm... · Posted by u/stargrave
jki275 · 7 years ago
No, it is true. If a community doesn't listen to that sort of behavior, then it has no effect.
s73v3r_ · 7 years ago
That is a mountain sized "if".
s73v3r_ commented on Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines   lists.gnu.org/archive/htm... · Posted by u/stargrave
winston_smith · 7 years ago
No, this attitude is harmful. First, because it dilutes the meaning of the word "politics", which describes something much more specific than "everything". And second, because as you point out in your last sentence, politics is something that can and should be kept separate from many aspects of life.

Inviting politics where it does not belong particularly harms vulnerable populations, because politics is about the use of power and force. We agree to leave our politics at home in many realms of life, and this allows us to band together regardless of our political differences to prevent greedy and powerful people from exploiting those realms.

s73v3r_ · 7 years ago
"politics is something that can and should be kept separate from many aspects of life."

The Trump administration had plans leaked this weekend that stated their intent to change the definition of "gender" so that trans people would not exist to the Federal Government. I'm sorry, but being able to keep politics separate is a privilege.

s73v3r_ commented on Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines   lists.gnu.org/archive/htm... · Posted by u/stargrave
johnminter · 7 years ago
Thank you for sharing the context. One of the problems we have with written interaction is that we don't have all the information that we have in face-to-face communication.

One helpful approach is to initially grant the benefit of the doubt to the person that you think offended you. I ask myself, "Am I certain the other person meant to be condescending" (or some other offense)? Do they have a history of this? If I respond harshly, will I get a listening ear?

I think Stallman did well by recommending to be kind. We want our collaborations to be productive. If we are quick to take offense, we will destroy relationships and collaboration.

My point is NOT to excuse bad behavior but rather to make sure I am not jumping to conclusions and breaking good collaborative relationships...

Of course we address repeat offenses. Having been gracious initially, those discussions are more likely to be productive. I think Stallman's approach does that well.

s73v3r_ · 7 years ago
If someone has stated what they wish to be called by, and rather than respecting their wishes, you choose to go down a tangent on how what you said is not a problem, then that is condescending, whether you intended it or not. Although I would have a very difficult time believing that someone who did that did not intend to be condescending.
s73v3r_ commented on Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines   lists.gnu.org/archive/htm... · Posted by u/stargrave
tomatocracy · 7 years ago
It's become a "dog whistle" issue because there is a perception that some activists may use CoC-type documents to deny contributors' ability to freely engage in political speech in other, unrelated, contexts. The worry is that this in turn will lead to either witch hunts or chilling effects, which are viewed as at odds with modern Western political free speech culture.

Many people feel uncomfortable with this as a concept, regardless of whether they agree with the ideas in question. They point out that this effect may well reduce the contributor pool in much the same way that a particularly harsh technical culture (eg LKML) might do, i.e. it ends up substituting one disincentive to participate with another for no net gain.

On the other side, some people argue that the speech they are concerned about is not "political" and that it is right that it should be punished beyond simple disagreement.

At first blush, this might seem rather tangential to the issue at hand. But there are some high profile examples of this actually having happened - see [1], or the example of Brendan Eich at Mozilla.

[1] https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941

s73v3r_ · 7 years ago
Eich's "speech" (his donation to the Prop 8 campaign that would ban gay marriage in California) was telling all of his LGBT employees that he did not believe that they were entitled to the same basic human rights as he was. This is not a simple political disagreement; this is telling those people that he believes they are second class citizens. As a result, many of those employees, as well as other organizations that worked with Mozilla who highly valued inclusion did not feel they could effectively work in such an environment. They wished to exercise their freedom of speech by deciding to no longer associate with Mozilla. Eich chose to step down, recognizing that such actions would be very bad for Mozilla.
s73v3r_ commented on Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines   lists.gnu.org/archive/htm... · Posted by u/stargrave
biglenny · 7 years ago
Please remain civil when discussing certain groups of people who identify with certain beliefs.
s73v3r_ · 7 years ago
The covenant of civility was already broken by those who hold those religious beliefs. They have attempted, repeatedly, to remove a woman's right to control her own body, and to use the force of government to interfere with attempts to exercise that bodily autonomy. That, to me, is the infinitely more uncivil act. That is the incivility that society should be seeking to correct, not the microscopic incivility of calling someone a mean name.
s73v3r_ commented on Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines   lists.gnu.org/archive/htm... · Posted by u/stargrave
reitanqild · 7 years ago
> In particular, by writing that codes of conduct are "punitive spirit", RMS shows a misunderstanding of how these texts came into existence.

I'll not argue over why they came into existence as the idea seems good enough (and if you'd asked me a few years ago I'd even said it was a good idea), but now I'll ask:

Over the years I've heard a number of times where a CoC has been used to make a lot of trouble in projects that where originally more or less healthy.

I read my it and open source news from Ars Technica, HN and from time to time Slashdot though, so I might be heavily biased.

Can anyone point me to one ore more projects where CoCs have actually improved open source/free software projects or communities?

As I already mentioned I guess originally I would have thought it was a good idea, but over the last few years I've heard either nothing or problems from projects that adopted a CoC.

s73v3r_ · 7 years ago
Offhand, I can think of maybe a handful of instances where trouble was made by applying the CoC to someone's behavior, either rightly or wrongly. To me, it's seemed that the "trouble" that comes is when a project decides to adopt a CoC, and several members protest agains the idea of having one.
s73v3r_ commented on Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines   lists.gnu.org/archive/htm... · Posted by u/stargrave
hueving · 7 years ago
A person wasn't even mentioned ...
s73v3r_ · 7 years ago
They quoted the parent, and referred to what they said as being an "insipid attitude". To me, that's close enough as makes no difference.
s73v3r_ commented on Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines   lists.gnu.org/archive/htm... · Posted by u/stargrave
defgeneric · 7 years ago
This is fine as an ethics or description of good manners.

The problem is that it is often turned into a politics.

The logic of this kind of identitarian social critique, insofar as it becomes political, is decidedly illiberal.

It is authoritarian.

But all of this is nothing new! In fact it's about 30+ years old.

It originates in the aftermath of the failed revolution of the 1960s--in other words, it appeared as a phenomenon of the dissolution of the New Left in the 1970s-1980s.

Some see its origins in the Maoist practice of self-critique. I think it's better understood as the response to the realization that the New Left's politics was no longer viable--that its historical potential was completely exhausted.

s73v3r_ · 7 years ago
"The problem is that it is often turned into a politics."

Everything is politics. Politics is part of everyone's life, and affects everyone's life. Some more than others, and some have the good fortune to not have to face that fact every day.

s73v3r_ commented on Announcing the GNU Kind Communication Guidelines   lists.gnu.org/archive/htm... · Posted by u/stargrave
guy98238710 · 7 years ago
This is an example of a bias in perception of discrimination. You dismiss the idea of discrimination of whites and men upfront. You probably believe whites and men are not discriminated against in any substantial way. You are even willing to paint discrimination of whites and men as a "loss of previous favors".

Consider this example: Difference in pay between men and women is a small discomfort (single women can afford 5% smaller homes) while divorce and child custody courts ruin lives (of men in 90% of cases) and cause unbearable pain (due to loss of contact with children). Yet pay equality is talked about and politically pushed through much more than joint child custody. This is what I call bias in perception of discrimination.

This is all a bit OT, but I think it is understood that misjudging discrimination and taking disproportionate action can damage opensource projects.

s73v3r_ · 7 years ago
"You dismiss the idea of discrimination of whites and men upfront."

I'm saying I'm not seeing evidence of any.

"This is what I call bias in perception of discrimination."

You're exhibiting just as much bias as you're accusing others of having. You're picking and choosing what you're considering important to worry about, and dismissing other items.

u/s73v3r_

KarmaCake day1597February 7, 2018View Original