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leftyted commented on More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru   theguardian.com/technolog... · Posted by u/soylentbeige
leftyted · 5 years ago
Having read the paper (https://gofile.io/d/WfcxoF), I can't take the idea that Google wanted to suppress it seriously (as the article argues).

In the paper, another paper is summarized describing the environmental costs of training large models. It is then argued that global warming will disproportionately affect marginalized people. This constitutes "environmental racism" because the main beneficiaries of these models are rich white people whereas the people bearing the costs are poor people who live near the equator. In my mind, this is two-points-make-a-line thinking.

The rest of the paper is more interesting. It argues that machine learning is conservative in that it "reinforces hegemonic language". I think this is true. Models are trained using data, data is what exists rather than what we would like to exist. If you're unhappy with what exists (as Gebru is, terribly), this represents a problem. Two of her solutions are "curating" data (censoring data) and "working with panels of experiential experts through the Diverse Voices methodology" (constituting powerful groups made up of her ideological allies). I think these solutions are dead-ends. It seems to me that we have to make peace with the conservatism inherent in these models (and maybe all models).

The paper also argues (I think rightly) that problems will materialize "should humans encounter seemingly coherent language model output and take it for the words of some person or organization who have accountability for what is said". In other words, we grant other humans responsibility for what they say and do but what about models that can mimic humans very accurately? A similar problem exists today when a Google or Youtube account is erroneously locked by some algorithm. There's a sense that, really, no one is responsible for this outcome because an algorithm did it. Even if the owner manages to get his account restored, there's no clear way to assign responsibility for the mistake. Perhaps this problem will become even worse if we start to see algorithms powered by models that are near-indistinguishable from people.

Anyway, the paper doesn't seem controversial to me. It seems clear that Gebru's strident tone and personal style were the cause of her firing/resignation. Jeff Dean's claim that the paper was rejected for not citing other papers may be false. The truth seems much simpler: based on her own public communications, Gebru felt she was the subject of "harassment" and "dehumanization" but those grievances seem to be hyperbole, and the personal injury that she felt became an excuse for her to treat her coworkers poorly. In other words, she didn't drop her twitter persona at work.

leftyted commented on Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges   theverge.com/2020/12/2/22... · Posted by u/brundolf
black_puppydog · 5 years ago
Not comparing google to coal mines. BUT

1. Unionized coal mines had/have much better wages and working conditions :)

2. Of course there are shades everywhere. And just because there are worse exploiters, doesn't mean google should get away with anything that's not "as bad" as those.

leftyted · 5 years ago
Coal mines should be unionized because the miners have their backs against the wall.

If I felt I was being under-compensated, working in poor conditions, and had my back against the wall, I'd want a union too. But describing my job like that is hysterically funny, much less Google programmers.

What's really going on here is simple. If you work at Google, your job is too good. There's no struggle. People want a struggle and so they invent one by LARPing as Marxists.

leftyted commented on Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges   theverge.com/2020/12/2/22... · Posted by u/brundolf
leftyted · 5 years ago
Working at Google while complaining about "labor exploitation" is like being a rich white kid in a Che shirt
leftyted commented on Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges   theverge.com/2020/12/2/22... · Posted by u/brundolf
black_puppydog · 5 years ago
The whole thread here seems to revolve around whether or not Spiers should have been fired for what she did. And while I have a clear opinion on that and had fun sparring with y'all here about it, can we also talk about how unionization is actually something that we need to think about as a profession / group of professions?

The days where "being in IT" made you a rockstar that could command a premium in individual negotiations are, best I can tell, way in the past. Open source frameworks and industry standards, while certainly excellent from a standpoint of work de-duplication and stability, have made it much easier (at least for bigger corps) to replace engineers, or to simply hire someone who's cheaper and less likely to make trouble (read: people more vulnerable to exploitation).

There are certainly still exceptions to this, and there will continue to be. For example, the mythical 10x people among you will never have to worry about this, because they're simply that good. Or if you happen to be working on rust for a year before it breaks into the mainstream, then you'll have a head start for a while. But don't expect that to last.

Overall: we will either realize and act on the fact that we are now for the most part a skilled labor like any other, or we will see our precious privileges erode and our incomes and work conditions deteriorate. And like it or not, but for many among us who are not "the gift of god to coding" the rational strategy will be to not fight on our own.

To bring this back to the current case: the NLRB decided that Spiers got illegally spied on. Whatever your take on her actions before that: illegal stays illegal, and as such don't blame her for it "because she had it coming." Blame google, for blatantly pushing against workers knowing and demanding their rights. If you see what they did here, and the context of this whole story, can you really take their argument at face value that she got fired for misappropriating company property or some such? Doesn't it seem much more likely that they simply made an example of her for informing her co-workers of their rights?

leftyted · 5 years ago
The idea of Google exploiting its programmers is an insult to actual exploited labor. These aren't coal miners. There's no factories.

The programmers where I work have too much power. We're exploiting the company. If I don't feel like writing code, I just do github stuff and answer questions. In fact that's what I did yesterday and the day before. No one notices or cares because, among other things, they couldn't replace me because there aren't thousands of hyper-educated new college grads after my job. I think many of the Google employees who are unhappy at Google due to "exploitation" would be happier working at a smaller, less famous company. Of course there's a pay cut and you lose that special feeling when everyone instantly recognizes you employer and assumes you're a genius.

leftyted commented on IRS says its own error sent $1,200 stimulus checks to non-Americans overseas   npr.org/2020/11/30/938902... · Posted by u/brundolf
MauranKilom · 5 years ago
> the idea you're pushing, something like "this doesn't really matter, the important thing is the government giving people money, the more the better, who even cares if they're American,"

I'm almost unsure how to reply because you seem to ignore the central point of the comment you're replying to. Your characterization omits the most salient point: That it had to be done fast. I don't see how the tradeoffs in emergency distribution of funds are in any way indicative of whether you can trust welfare states to be administered properly or not. The comment was precisely about "lack of administrative rigor" being warranted in favor of preventing greater harm.

> Does Sweden send welfare checks to Americans who aren't Swedish citizens? If not, perhaps that partly explains why the Swedes are more comfortable with an expansive welfare state than Americans.

I don't understand how this point relates to the general value of welfare systems that you are discussing. Are you saying an American welfare system has to be inherently less reliable? Or that there are more Americans than Swedes so statistically Sweden will receive more accidental checks from America than the reverse? Could you elaborate?

leftyted · 5 years ago
Yes, the parent comment was about "lack of administrative rigor". The cheerful acceptance of that situation was the topic of my post.

There is no reason why someone can't support the welfare state and also demand efficiency. That demand represents an ideal; there will always be errors, but the insistence that all errors are unavoidable and that (as the parent suggested) we shouldn't even talk about them is extremely irritating. It provides the enemies of the welfare state with the best possible arguments ("you don't even care if the money is going to people who need it").

leftyted commented on IRS says its own error sent $1,200 stimulus checks to non-Americans overseas   npr.org/2020/11/30/938902... · Posted by u/brundolf
Pfhreak · 5 years ago
> if you support the welfare state, mistakes like this should bother you more, not less.

Why? I support social programs, I accept some inefficiencies and waste.

In general I think small waste is not worth the energy to be concerned about if the benefit is huge.

That said, I think means testing is a waste of everyone's time. Just provide the benefits to everyone -- it simplifies the process of providing the benefit.

leftyted · 5 years ago
Because, as I said in my original post, "[shoddiness, etc] represents the best objections to the welfare state".

In other words, blithe dismissals like "I accept some inefficienies and waste" provide the other side with the best possible ammunition against the idea of a welfare state.

It's laughable to see the number of people here who, straight-faced, say nonsense like "Nitpicking efficiency is for the capitalists".

leftyted commented on IRS says its own error sent $1,200 stimulus checks to non-Americans overseas   npr.org/2020/11/30/938902... · Posted by u/brundolf
Pfhreak · 5 years ago
> Which are its shoddiness:

I mean, they sent what, $34m overseas erroneously of $2T?

Doing some quick napkin math, for every $1,000,000 spent, $10 accidentally went overseas?

Why does this seem poor to you? That seems like less than a rounding error in a rounding error....

leftyted · 5 years ago
I should have said "supposed shoddiness".

My point was not that the welfare state is shoddy but that, if you support the welfare state, mistakes like this should bother you more, not less.

leftyted commented on IRS says its own error sent $1,200 stimulus checks to non-Americans overseas   npr.org/2020/11/30/938902... · Posted by u/brundolf
eli · 5 years ago
I feel like there is a disproportionate focus on relatively small dollar errors and fraud. The point was to get money to people who need it and to keep the economy from collapsing for everyone. Setting up mechanisms to try to catch every mistake would probably have cost more money than it would have saved and definitely would have unnecessarily delayed people getting checks. The stimulus was too small and too slow to begin with.
leftyted · 5 years ago
Ironically, the idea you're pushing, something like "this doesn't really matter, the important thing is the government giving people money, the more the better, who even cares if they're American," precisely represents the best objections to the welfare state. Which are its shoddiness, its lack of administrative rigor, and so on. These objections raise the question: can a welfare state be effective if it's administered so poorly? If the American government is sending money to Swedes, can we trust it to send money to "people who need it"?

Does Sweden send welfare checks to Americans who aren't Swedish citizens? If not, perhaps that partly explains why the Swedes are more comfortable with an expansive welfare state than Americans.

leftyted commented on YouTube shadowbans video titled “The CIA is a Terrorist Organization”   twitter.com/_SecondThough... · Posted by u/pimpampum
jessaustin · 5 years ago
Words have meanings. "Propaganda" isn't just funny stories; it is done for particular interests. You claim he's a propagandist, so you should identify which interests those are. Failing that, you could retract your vicious slur...
leftyted · 5 years ago
I identified his interest. Are you getting all the way through my posts?

> Horne's writings aren't about history: they're a form public of agitation so that "the USA will do less racist shit".

leftyted commented on YouTube shadowbans video titled “The CIA is a Terrorist Organization”   twitter.com/_SecondThough... · Posted by u/pimpampum
jessaustin · 5 years ago
A clumsy propagandist for whom? A secret cabal of evildoers who plot the day that USA will do less racist shit?
leftyted · 5 years ago
Just because you view all history as the result of a "secret cabal of evildoers" (in this case, plotting to preserve slavery) doesn't mean I have to.

As you let slip here, Horne's writings aren't about history: they're a form public of agitation so that "the USA will do less racist shit". Which would be fine if he was a social critic or a politician. But he's been passing himself off as a historian.

u/leftyted

KarmaCake day2226January 19, 2019View Original