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judell commented on XMLUI   blog.jonudell.net/2025/07... · Posted by u/mpweiher
gverrilla · 5 months ago
I may be wrong because my domain knowledge is limited, but it seems to me this should marketed to novices and non-programmers instead of your typical hn crowd. As a novice frontend "builder", it sounds this was made for people like me, but not this blog post - give me examples, whys and limits - tell me I won't even need to learn how React works.
judell · 5 months ago
We hope the landing page conveys that message! https://www.xmlui.org/
judell commented on XMLUI   blog.jonudell.net/2025/07... · Posted by u/mpweiher
Neywiny · 5 months ago
Almost immediately is the reason I don't like using this stuff. A hardcoded default value. There are so many things these UI generators can almost do but don't, and a default value for a dynamic selection is often one of the trickier ones to get right.
judell · 5 months ago
Here's the How To for that: https://docs.xmlui.org/howto#set-the-initial-value-of-a-sele...

Our hope is that by building up a set of these patterns, and making them available to agents via MCP, it will be as easy as possible to get things right.

judell commented on XMLUI   blog.jonudell.net/2025/07... · Posted by u/mpweiher
jug · 5 months ago
Web standards are so powerful today with all the browser native form components etc, so I think one should just exploit that one and use XSLT (https://caniuse.com/?search=xslt) if you want to create an own "UI markup language". It'll render straight to everything that your browser supports, which is a lot. Then just use CSS to style it however you wish if you want to. What's nice about this approach is also that you can create a true domain-specific markup language, which will always be more clean and compact than a generic one.
judell · 5 months ago
We are aiming for people who not only don't want (or are not able) to learn/write React, but also CSS.
judell commented on XMLUI   blog.jonudell.net/2025/07... · Posted by u/mpweiher
Too · 5 months ago
So instead of ’const tubeStations = useDatasource()’ we now type ’<DataSource id=”tubeStations” />’ and anything beyond this basic example is left as exercise for the reader.

Doesn’t seem like a big improvement? In fact the opposite. Sure, React’s stateful hooks mixing in a semi-declarative mode of programming in otherwise imperative code isn’t exactly intuitive, but the flexibility and familiarity you get from having full JavaScript at your fingertips is worth everything. Hands up anyone who want to learn how to make a for-loop with filter+map in xml syntax. Didn’t think so.

If you want to fix react what you should do instead is keep jsx and give stateful hooks a dedicated section that can’t be mixed up in rendering code.

judell · 5 months ago
> exercise for the reader

The demo app shows a bunch of patterns. https://docs.xmlui.org/tutorial-01

judell commented on XMLUI   blog.jonudell.net/2025/07... · Posted by u/mpweiher
eviks · 5 months ago
> The project we’re announcing today, XMLUI, brings the VB model to the modern web

But this ugly XML was the worst part of the old UI building experience, and you've made it worse by turning into a poor man's programming language without all the tooling proper languages have to support the poor user.

The good part was the immediate visual feedback in a GUI editor where you couldn't break anything by forgetting to close an XML tag! And you didn't even have to know all the types to type in because you had a visible list of UI elements you could pick from

judell · 5 months ago
The VSCode extension can help with some of that: https://docs.xmlui.org/vscode
judell commented on XMLUI   blog.jonudell.net/2025/07... · Posted by u/mpweiher
tbeseda · 5 months ago
I don't mind XML but the release is 4.23 MB. Minified. There are 90 dependencies (931 fully resolved).

Also, the Docs link to home.xmlui.com and don't resolve

judell · 5 months ago
We will soon have a way for standalone apps to shed unused dependencies, just as the build for the docs site does.

Thanks for the 404 heads-up.

judell commented on XMLUI   blog.jonudell.net/2025/07... · Posted by u/mpweiher
eyelidlessness · 5 months ago
I don’t think this is a reinvention of XHTML. It’s definitely closer in spirit to XUL, but seems different enough still that I wouldn’t call it reinvention.

What seems particularly novel about this is that it’s taken the compositional approach of modern UI component libraries, and distilled it down to units of composition that can express a lot of behavior and logic declaratively. At least at a glance, that’s an impressive feat. Not necessarily in terms its technical capabilities (though that seems impressive too), but in terms of how it simplifies modeling interactive and data-driven UI.

judell · 5 months ago
I am not sure about prior art but the ability to mix built-in and user-defined components, and fluidly refactor the mixture, feels very powerful to me.
judell commented on XMLUI   blog.jonudell.net/2025/07... · Posted by u/mpweiher
cheschire · 5 months ago
No mention of XSLT? Feels like it would be highly relevant since many folks have not considered transforming or styling XML since those days, and would be interested in understanding the huge leap from that to this.

And given Jon Udell has written about XSLT before[0], I'm sure this was an intentional decision. Not sure I understand it though.

0: https://www.xml.com/pub/a/2003/08/13/udell.html

judell · 5 months ago
I wrestled with how much history to bring into this because I want to look forward not back. The purpose of the announcement is to encourage people to try the tool and find out for themselves if it is a productive way to build the user interfaces they need.
judell commented on XMLUI   blog.jonudell.net/2025/07... · Posted by u/mpweiher
cgannett · 5 months ago
I am simultaneously in the seemingly opposite camps of "haha we reinvent HTML lol" and "Actually this sounds immediately useful to me".

To be human is to be multitudes.

judell · 5 months ago
Beautifully said. All that matters in the end: will it be immediately useful to people like you who imagine that it might be?
judell commented on XMLUI   blog.jonudell.net/2025/07... · Posted by u/mpweiher
cbsmith · 5 months ago
Pretty sure Jon Udell remembers XUL.
judell · 5 months ago
I do indeed.

u/judell

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