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ctbergstrom commented on Modern-Day Oracles or Bullshit Machines? How to thrive in a ChatGPT world   thebullshitmachines.com... · Posted by u/ctbergstrom
Terr_ · 10 months ago
This occurs because of ambiguous language which conflates the LLM algorithm with the training-data and the derived weights.

The mysterious part involves whatever patterns might naturally exist within bazillions of human documents, and what partial/compressed patterns might exist within the weights the LLM generates (on training) and then later uses.

Analogy: We built a probe that travels to an alien planet, mines out crystal deposits, and projects light through those fragments to show unexpected pictures of the planet's past. We know exactly how our part of the machine works, and we know the chemical composition of the crystals, but...

ctbergstrom · 10 months ago
I very much like this analogy. Thank you for making this clearer in my mind.
ctbergstrom commented on Modern-Day Oracles or Bullshit Machines? How to thrive in a ChatGPT world   thebullshitmachines.com... · Posted by u/ctbergstrom
raincom · 10 months ago
Since you are on Frankfurtian bullshit, why don't you consider Late G.A. Cohen's take on intellectual bullshit (bullshit perpetuated in the academia), as the latter's notion of bullshit is linked to knowledge, unlike the bullshit we hear from salesmen, showmen, etc.
ctbergstrom · 10 months ago
We've discussed Cohen's work in our book _Calling Bullshit_, but the type of bullshit the Cohen focuses on — unclarifiable unclarity, particularly in academic writing — is not what LLMs produce so it strikes us as far less relevant to this course than Frankfurt's notion.
ctbergstrom commented on Modern-Day Oracles or Bullshit Machines? How to thrive in a ChatGPT world   thebullshitmachines.com... · Posted by u/ctbergstrom
mr_toad · 10 months ago
Current LLMs are not the end-all of LLMs, and chain of thought frontier models are not the end-all of AI.

I’d be wary of confidently claiming what AI can and can’t do, at the risk of looking foolish in a decade, or a year, or at the pace things are moving, even a month.

ctbergstrom · 10 months ago
That's entirely true. We've tried hard to stick with general principles that we don't think will readily be overturned. But doubtless we've been too assertive for some people's taste and doubtless we'll be wrong in places. Hence the choice to develop not a static book but rather living document that will evolve with time. The field is developing too fast for anything else.

With respect to what the future brings, we do try to address a bit of that in Lesson 16: https://thebullshitmachines.com/lesson-16-the-first-step-fal...

ctbergstrom commented on Modern-Day Oracles or Bullshit Machines? How to thrive in a ChatGPT world   thebullshitmachines.com... · Posted by u/ctbergstrom
threecheese · 10 months ago
Looks like you pushed this midway through my read; I was pleasantly surprised to suddenly find breadcrumbs at the end and didn’t need to keep two tabs open. Great work, and I mean in total - this is well written and understandable to the layman.
ctbergstrom · 10 months ago
Yep, I probably did. I really appreciate all of the feedback people are providing!
ctbergstrom commented on Modern-Day Oracles or Bullshit Machines? How to thrive in a ChatGPT world   thebullshitmachines.com... · Posted by u/ctbergstrom
grepLeigh · 10 months ago
LLMs that use Chain of Thought sequences have been demonstrated to misrepresent their own reasoning [1]. The CoT sequence is another dimension for hallucination.

So, I would say that an LLM capable of explaining its reasoning doesn't guarantee that the reasoning is grounded in logic or some absolute ground truth.

I do think it's interesting that LLMs demonstrate the same fallibility of low quality human experts (i.e. confident bullshitting), which is the whole point of the OP course.

I love the goal of the course: get the audience thinking more critically, both about the output of LLMs and the content of the course. It's a humanities course, not a technical one.

(Good) Humanities courses invite the students to question/argue the value and validity of course content itself. The point isn't to impart some absolute truth on the student - it's to set the student up to practice defining truth and communicating/arguing their definition to other people.

[1] https://arxiv.org/abs/2305.04388

ctbergstrom · 10 months ago
Yes!

First, thank you for the link about CoT misrepresentation. I've written a fair bit about this on Bluesky etc but I don't think much if any of that made it into the course yet. We should add this to lesson 6, "They're Not Doing That!"

Your point about humanities courses is just right and encapsulates what we are trying to do. If someone takes the course and engages in the dialectical process and decides we are much too skeptical, great! If they decide we aren't skeptical enough, also great. As we say in the instructor guide:

"We view this as a course in the humanities, because it is a course about what it means to be human in a world where LLMs are becoming ubiquitous, and it is a course about how to live and thrive in such a world. This is not a how-to course for using generative AI. It's a when-to course, and perhaps more importantly a why-not-to course.

"We think that the way to teach these lessons is through a dialectical approach.

"Students have a first-hand appreciation for the power of AI chatbots; they use them daily.

"Students also carry a lot of anxiety. Many students feel conflicted about using AI in their schoolwork. Their teachers have probably scolded them about doing so, or prohibited it entirely. Some students have an intuition that these machines don't have the integrity of human writers.

"Our aim is to provide a framework in which students can explore the benefits and the harms of ChatGPT and other LLM assistants. We want to help them grapple with the contradictions inherent in this new technology, and allow them to forge their own understanding of what it means to be a student, a thinker, and a scholar in a generative AI world."

ctbergstrom commented on Modern-Day Oracles or Bullshit Machines? How to thrive in a ChatGPT world   thebullshitmachines.com... · Posted by u/ctbergstrom
aaplok · 10 months ago
Really well done. It is really a challenge for students to navigate their way around the AI landscape. I am definitely considering sharing that with my students.

Have you noticed a difference in how your students approach LLMs after taking your course? A possible issue I see is that it is preaching to the choir; a student who is enclined to use LLMs for everything is less likely to engage with the material in the first place.

If you allow feedback, I was interested in lesson 10 on writing, as an educator who tries to teach my science/IT/maths students the importance of being able to communicate.

I would suggest to include a paragraph to explain why being able to write without LLMs is just as important in scientific disciplines, where precision and accuracy are more essential than creativity and personalisation.

ctbergstrom · 10 months ago
This is an excellent point about scientific writing. We'll add something to that effect.

We have not taught this course from the web-based materials yet, but it distills much of the two-week unit that we covered in our "Calling Bullshit" course this past autumn. We find that our students are generally very interested to better understand the LLMs that they are using — and almost every one of them does, to vary degree. (Of course there may be some selection bias in that the 180 students who sign up to take a course on data reasoning may be more curious and more skeptical than the average.)

ctbergstrom commented on Modern-Day Oracles or Bullshit Machines? How to thrive in a ChatGPT world   thebullshitmachines.com... · Posted by u/ctbergstrom
patja · a year ago
I'm uncomfortable with the use of profanity as a core element of this campaign branding, especially given that it seems to be an educational outreach effort. While this seems targeted at college age and above, I think it would be highly relevant content for a teen audience as well. While I swear in privacy on occasion I think it has no place in the classroom. I really don't care for it in the workplace either but I grant that private enterprises can have their own culture.

It is frustrating because I agree with most of the content and the need for informed debate on the topic. It is a bit like my reaction to reading Cory Doctorow: I agree with his politics but really dislike the hamfisted way he packages his advocacy in the form of action adventures. As if the merits of his arguments need to be packaged in cotton candy to be consumed, and there is an undercurrent of self-promotion and personal branding that feels suss.

Probably all a "me" problem with associations built up over time from seeing snake oil being packaged using a similar playbook. If you have to sell your message by dressing it up with scroll effects and provocative offensive language you've already lost me.

ctbergstrom · 10 months ago
This is something we've given serious consideration, having taught a course called "Calling Bullshit" (http://callingbullshit.org) for almost a decade and having authored a book by the same name that gets downranked on various Amazon features because of its title.

But the bullshit is a term of art here, after the seminal 1986 article "On Bullshit" by Princeton philosopher Harry Frankfurt (later published as a little book). We strongly feel that it is exactly the right term for what LLMs are doing, and we make the case for that in lesson 2 of the course. (https://thebullshitmachines.com/lesson-2-the-nature-of-bulls...)

We're also concerned about accessibility for high school teachers etc., and thinking about what to do in that direction.

I'm curious: do you find "bs" to be any less offensive?

ctbergstrom commented on Modern-Day Oracles or Bullshit Machines? How to thrive in a ChatGPT world   thebullshitmachines.com... · Posted by u/ctbergstrom
tialaramex · a year ago
This course mentions the famous Apple advertisement. Unfortunately it slightly oversells and while I'm sure that's not because this fragment was written by an LLM it is exactly the sort of over-simplification which leads to LLMs generating wild bullshit when they interpolate this "fact" with other "facts" they've been fed, and we ought to strive to do better when writing for humans.

"Describe how prior to 1984, there was no such thing as a graphical user interface, visual desktop, an intuitive menu system, or mouse-based navigation."

Apple were offering a mass market product which had these features so that's important - but there had been "such a thing" for quite some time before that. Douglas Engelbart's "Mother Of All Demos" in 1968 -- Sixteen years earlier shows all the features you mentioned. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mother_of_All_Demos

Unfortunately the demo is very long for a modern audience, so unlike "Watch a Superbowl ad" it's a hard sell to show the entire demo, but do go watch for yourself.

ctbergstrom · 10 months ago
You're right of course.

In the original drafts I had a long section on this, including some of the history of the GUI, the development of the mouse, etc. It was way too much for the main text when the point is just to set up a metaphor for students who have seen a Mac 128.

That said, we can and should do better in the instructor guide. Thanks for the reminder. I'll add some context there.

ctbergstrom commented on Modern-Day Oracles or Bullshit Machines? How to thrive in a ChatGPT world   thebullshitmachines.com... · Posted by u/ctbergstrom
d4rkp4ttern · a year ago
The format is very interesting. Can you speak to the tech stack behind how you made it ?
ctbergstrom · 10 months ago
After talking to an awful lot of 18-20 year olds (our target audience) we decided we wanted to go with a "scrollytellying" style. I'm not a designer and I've done worked in that style before. After looking into a range of platforms — Vev and Closeread for Quarto deserve particular mention — I felt that Shorthand (https://shorthand.com/) was the best option for rapid development given my lack of experience in this whole process.

In general I've been very pleased. You don't have the fine scale control you do on a platform like Vev, but for someone like me that is probably a good thing because it keeps me from mucking around quite as much as I otherwise would with design decisions that I don't really understand.

The price is a bit steep for a self-funded operation and we're constrained a bit by the need to use their starter tier, but I feel like we are definitely getting our money's worth and customer support from Shorthand has been exemplary.

ctbergstrom commented on Modern-Day Oracles or Bullshit Machines? How to thrive in a ChatGPT world   thebullshitmachines.com... · Posted by u/ctbergstrom
63stack · a year ago
Was thinking the same, the image slide-ins are broken in firefox and unreadable (white text on white background)
ctbergstrom · 10 months ago
I'm surprised at the firefox problems; I did almost all the development in firefox. I know it's not your job to fix any of this, but if you are so inclined I'd be grateful for an email me with screenshots or descriptions of where things break.

u/ctbergstrom

KarmaCake day357February 9, 2025
About
Biology prof at U. Washington.

I study how information flows in biology, science, and society.

Book: Calling Bullshit, tinyurl.com/fdcuvd7b

Online LLM course: thebullshitmachines.com

Corvids: tinyurl.com/mr2n5ymk

he/him

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