craigsmansion (u/craigsmansion)

craigsmansion commented on Kicking Off the GNU Assembly gnu.tools/en/blog/2021/04... · Posted by u/ABS

rekado · 4 years ago

> Do you know if they will reject as members those GNU developers who are, openly, supporters of RMS?

I can't speak for others but here's my take: I think it's not useful to have only two bins: "pro RMS" and "anti RMS". We are capable of more nuance and I'd like to see that reflected in our communication.

I for one am convinced that RMS has a voice that is worth hearing in the wider free software community. I also think that part of his behavior has been pretty constantly alienating to many people (and the lack of willingness to address those issues is part of that force of alienation). I don't want my work as a GNU maintainer and contributor to be tarnished by the negative fallout of RMS comments and behaviors.

The lack of nuance in peoples reverence of RMS is one of the seeds of conflict, in my opinion. If GNU (and the FSF) was seen less as the RMS club and instead was more closely associated with the GNU manifesto and the vision it outlines, and if there was actual project governance (instead of RMS butting in to demand context-free changes, expecting people who do the work to "respect his authoritah!") --- then probably we wouldn't even be at this point.

I "support" RMS in that I don't think it's wise to shut him up. But I also don't support his claim to "lead" the GNU project. He doesn't and hasn't for a while. I also don't support his claim to represent the work of those who contribute to GNU. He does that a lot, speaking in the royal "we" when really he is just stating his own opinion.

So to me this is a false dichotomy and thus not a criterion to reject members to the GNU assembly. All we ask is that members affirm the Social Contract (a pretty low bar that nevertheless seems necessary if we want to cooperate and work towards a shared vision) and to communicate in acknowledgement of the code of conduct --- which lays out what kind of communication style we like to see, and what to expect when people (you or others) risk ruining it for all others.

The GNU Assembly is about treating the "GNU project" like an actual project. It is about collaborative governance and better communication. Any individual's personal nuanced opinion on rms is really not related, though I personally find rms to be an example of how not to run a project.

For once the GNU Assembly is not about rms. That any discussion of GNU keeps circling back to rms is an indictment of the state of GNU. I hope that together we can manage to escape this vortex.

craigsmansion · 4 years ago

> He doesn't and hasn't for a while.

By design.

GNU maintainers already have full control over their projects. The only thing left to delegate to maintainers is the definition and application of the four software freedoms.

> The GNU Assembly is about treating the "GNU project" like an actual project.

With input from people who don't agree or would like clarifications? Because that didn't happen during the last time you tried this[1]. It was just the proposers talking in circles and ignoring input and questions, asserting that things would be for the better but unwilling to engage what "better" would entail.

> The GNU Assembly

is not GNU. And you were asked repeatedly to change the name to avoid confusion the last time you tried this with "gnu.tools", but it was ignored, just like all the input and questions that didn't straight up fit your world view.

> It is about collaborative governance and better communication

That's what got people to listen to you on the gnu-misc mailing list, but it turned out it was about ousting rms (without any solid plan other than "trust us") and shutting down dissenting opinions.

There's a reason you failed the first time, and it doesn't look like the gnu-tools initiative has managed to improve their governance or communication in the meantime.

[1]https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnu-misc-discuss/2019-11/...

craigsmansion commented on Israel may have destroyed Iranian centrifuges simply by cutting power theintercept.com/2021/04/... · Posted by u/DyslexicAtheist

throwawayboise · 4 years ago

> There's no indication that Iran is any less deterrable than every other nuclear power.

Unlike other nuclear states, Iran is governed by religious zealots.

craigsmansion · 4 years ago

> Iran is governed by religious zealots.

In that case their highest religious authority has issued a fatwa against weapons of mass destruction, including nuclear weapons, and since they're religious zealots they would honour that fatwa.

So they're either very religious, and should pose no danger because of that, or they're not very religious, in which case they would pose no danger.

craigsmansion commented on RMS addresses the free software community fsf.org/news/rms-addresse... · Posted by u/caution

BugsJustFindMe · 4 years ago

> and now you're doing it, because there was no Epstein connection.

If you prefer the phrases "defense of Minsky in his 70s having sex with a minor on a private island where Minksy then later hosted another conference _after_ Epstein's public conviction for sex trafficking and being designated a level three sex offender" or perhaps "refusal to recognize sex with minors as rape" we can use one of those instead. I don't mind. Because Stallman _did_ say he believed that Minsky had sex with a 17 year old on a billionaire's small private island and saw nothing wrong with it, and Minsky _did_ host a conference on Epstein's island after Epstein's crimes became public.

> I'd love to, if only these people who are so aggrieved would...

I think it's weird for you to expect everyone to blog about their daily negative experiences instead of venting to their friends and then trying to forget.

The two sides here are people who work at or with the FSF (or who have close friends who work at or with the FSF) and people whose only exposure is shit blogs that come up on google. And the people who work at or with the FSF are like "RMS is a nightmare for me or for a close friend of mine", and the people who google shit blogs are like "I don't find these shit blogs to be compelling enough to notice the fact that the people saying that RMS has been a nightmare are all the people who have to work with him". Everyone gets to pick their side though.

craigsmansion · 4 years ago

No, actually I would prefer facts instead of this incessant and tiring framing with laden and erroneous terms.

> I think it's weird for you to expect everyone to blog about their daily negative experiences

And I think it's weird that most with personal grievances against rms can't be bothered to write anything but the shortest of anecdotal tweets and most with pleasant or neutral experiences take the time write long form articles including names, dates, locations, etc.

If one sets out to ruin someone's life one could at least put in some effort to convince those that are not automatically on your side.

craigsmansion commented on RMS addresses the free software community fsf.org/news/rms-addresse... · Posted by u/caution

BugsJustFindMe · 4 years ago

> Is this about Thomas Bushnell? Because I feel this is about Thomas Bushnell

It doesn't have to be. I've known over a dozen people working at the FSF over the years, and they _all_ had the same stories about trying to avoid RMS as much as physically possible because of his behavior and how he treated people. At some point we have to stop looking for excuses and start listening to the people who are actually there.

> First it was the Epstein connection

Correction: _Last_ it was the Epstein connection, a straw on a pile of many straws.

craigsmansion · 4 years ago

> start listening to the people who are actually there.

I'd love to, if only these people who are so aggrieved would properly write down their experiences instead of "I didn't like him anyway" after-the-fact tweets.

> Correction: _Last_ it was the Epstein connection, a straw on a pile of many straws.

Yes, quite enough to build a strawperson as an effigy, and now you're doing it, because there was no Epstein connection. In all of MIT, the only person you can trust not to have any sort of connection to Epstein would be rms, but yeah, let's blame him and the dead guy, and take it from there.

craigsmansion commented on RMS addresses the free software community fsf.org/news/rms-addresse... · Posted by u/caution

davexunit · 4 years ago

Until you've been as close to rms as the people that have worked with/for him that have tried and failed for years and years to resolve issues privately, whatever silly argument you are trying to make doesn't have a leg to stand on.

craigsmansion · 4 years ago

> people that have worked with/for him that have tried and failed for years and years to resolve issues privately

Is this about Thomas Bushnell? Because I feel this is about Thomas Bushnell[1].

Bushnell is currently a friar in a religious order and works for google, and there is nothing wrong with that[2].

I can easily work with devout religious people and respect and accept them for their superior knowledge of the matter at hand (say, Don Knuth), but there's nothing wrong with politely declining their opinions when it comes to "issues" or how to become a "better" person.

Again, no disrespect to Bushnell, who I'm sure did a fine job, but I'm not willing to take his assessment of the personality of an avouched atheist at face value.

[1]https://medium.com/@thomas.bushnell/a-reflection-on-the-depa...

[2] well, working for Google can be debatable depending on what you do there.

craigsmansion commented on RMS addresses the free software community fsf.org/news/rms-addresse... · Posted by u/caution

MrRadar · 4 years ago

> Then why do you care at all about the FSF in the first place? It sounds like you're here just to spread rumors and opinions in this case.

I can't answer for the OP but it's clear that the FSF was a in a leadership position within the software world in the 1980s and 1990s. That position has slipped precipitously despite the increasing importance of the GNU software they developed in every aspect of modern computing. RMS, both in his behavior while representing the FSF at conferences and his (lack of) understanding of the modern computing environment[1], was/is very clearly part of the reason for that decline. I think the principles the FSF stands for are good and important, however without an organization to promote them they will continue to wither in the modern age and bringing back RMS will not help to reverse that trend.

[1] How can a man who spent years refusing to use normal web browsers and insisting on having web pages e-mailed to him possibly be positioned to develop policies to promote the principles of Free Software within the framework of the modern web?

craigsmansion · 4 years ago

> and his (lack of) understanding of the modern computing environment

How can you look at the "modern web" and claim that? It looks like he understands it perfectly well, even back in the day, but what can he do other than say it's not good for user freedom when faced with user-hostile corporations with literal billions at their disposal?

> refusing to use normal web browsers and insisting on having web pages e-mailed to him

That's silly. His workflow is obviously email based, which, given that he travels a lot and stays in places with possibly less than stellar connection, is perfectly practical. Get all your work on your device when you have a connection and work through them in batches until the next good connection.

craigsmansion commented on RMS addresses the free software community fsf.org/news/rms-addresse... · Posted by u/caution

dividedbyzero · 4 years ago

> Someone I know who works on pretty much singlehandedly on something that is on the frontpage of GCC said that he entered Stallman's bad books the moment he found out he had children.

I know pretty much nothing about this Stallman person, does he actually dislike people with children?

craigsmansion · 4 years ago

No.

"He was kind, attentive, and has a loving core. In simple language, he patiently explained to my son, then around 12, about the virtues of the GNU/Linux operating system"

https://whoisylvia.medium.com/richard-stallman-has-been-vili...

He doesn't deem "having children" as some sort of special accomplishment though, which might rub some parents the wrong way.

craigsmansion commented on RMS addresses the free software community fsf.org/news/rms-addresse... · Posted by u/caution

davexunit · 4 years ago

He's mistreated many FSF staff members, many LibrePlanet attendees, many GNU project contributors, etc. The fact that the public discourse is focused on the Epstein-related comments does RMS and the FSF a huge favor by pointing the spotlight away from the real issue which has been happening for decades.

craigsmansion · 4 years ago

It's a bit rich that you accuse those who didn't take the initial smear campaign at face value of moving the goal posts.

First it was the Epstein connection, which proved false.

Then it was predatory behaviour at MIT with three quotes from over 3 decades, a sign on his door, and a mattress doused in implications.

Then it was simply "making some people uncomfortable", which is sort of a given if you talk about free software to groups of people who are in the proprietary software industry, and says nothing at all.

If you want the "real issues" addressed, stop drowning them in fabrications.

craigsmansion commented on Renaming Coq sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/... · Posted by u/ingve

6gvONxR4sf7o · 4 years ago

It’s a shame that an innocent French word for a French tool has to be renamed because of how it sounds to English speakers. It kinda reminds me of how kids tease someone with the surname Wang because of how it sounds in English.

But, the tool that originated in France is now a standard tool in a world where the lingua franca (pun intended) is English, and there’s no avoiding that in that environment it sounds like cock. There’s no choice here that isn’t somehow shitty, so it seems like they’re making the best decision.

craigsmansion · 4 years ago

> in a world where the lingua franca (pun intended) is English

That would be for computing in general. When it comes to proving software, France's academia seems to be one of the few that takes "making working software" as a serious development for the future (maybe because of airplanes and nuclear power plants). They're actually in the forefront here, if not leading.

The correct response to "Coq sounds funny in English" should be:

"Maybe just learn French?".

craigsmansion commented on Renaming Coq sympa.inria.fr/sympa/arc/... · Posted by u/ingve

rapnie · 4 years ago

Sometimes they aren't renamed, like the Mitsubishi Pajero..

craigsmansion · 4 years ago

The Pajero was renamed in a lot of Spanish speaking countries.

Still, a lot of Spanish farmers drive one impervious to its slang meaning. This is probably because it actually does the thing they need it for, does it well, and they have better things to do.