The really special thing about Frameworks is that you can quickly buy and replace basically any part, not just the usual RAM and SSD -- case in point, when I managed to damage my FW13's keyboard such that it was no longer usable, I could just... go straight to Framework's website and buy a new one for $40. And, I even had the option of a slightly improved one, that shed the Windows key and lacked the god-awful copilot key.
This approach even allows the manufacturer to correct design flaws after the fact -- and let's face it, there will always be design flaws. For instance, my FW13 originally came with a very weak hinge for the screen. It was perfectly usable for most daily usage and most people probably wouldn't care, but it meant I couldn't hold it up without the screen tilting back. Well, FW corrected this for those customers who really did care by just selling a new hinge for $24, and so $24 + 10 minutes with a screwdriver later, I had a substantially more refined device! (And to clarify -- there was a defective hinge version in the early batches, and those were replaced free of charge. Mine was a slightly later version that, beyond lacking the level of stiffness I preferred, was not defective.)
Being able to replace the keyboard is especially wonderful because laptops are usually "region-locked". I know people who use relatively unpopular layouts relative to where they live, and it makes it harder to buy and much harder to sell their Macs.
This curse extends to mechanical keyboards as well. There exists all sorts of fancy, beautiful and odd keycap sets... for Americans. Some times for German and French. If I get really lucky, I'll find some with a "Nordic" layout, which is an abomination that combines dk/se/no.
I was hoping that this is how it would work for System76 -- when I bought the laptop they sold replacement batteries. Five years later I find myself needing a battery and they are unavailable -- not on System76's website, not online, nowhere. My only option is to either replace the laptop or buy a used one and take the battery from that, hoping that it's good.
For the last six months I've just been using a laptop as a mini pc with no battery.
I use laptops since the 90‘. I only ever wanted to get a new battery. Everthing else never had anybsignificant problem, or started to have problems when the machine was already obsolete (5 to 10 years). While I like the Frameworks, I personally don’t see lots of advantages in terms of reparability, ovly eventually in making one with exactly what I need and no more. But then they are a little pricey.
That'll probably be the last time that happens since a lot of places are starting to require parts be made available for some years after the last sale of the device.
A lot of System76 laptops are essentially rebadged versions of Chinese or Taiwanese ODMs. You might have some luck trying to research what model the ODM produces the laptop as and find replacement batteries for that instead of focusing on finding System76 branded batteries.
I had no idea about this. I don't see how anybody who is buying one of these because of the repair-ability would complete the purchase if they knew this. I also don't see how they can make all of their user-friendly claims if this is the case.
I'm running my lemur pro with no battery (on a UPS) now too. My first battery ballooned and then I got a second aftermarket one and it balooned too -- Yikes!
Depending on the model you might be able to find it online. My system 76 had a “Clevo” ID on the bottom sticker ( the company that manufactures the computers) I used to buy a replacement fan.
One of the white Macbooks used 50 screws to fasten the keyboard. Once I spilled some juice on it and had to replace it.
Took forever, but at least back then it was not too expensive or difficult.
It depends on vendor really - I have Lenovo T480 and I replaced keyboard earlier this year (there are various options like w/ or w/o backlit + layout (I'm Czech), I have 2 batteries - one for "normal" use and extended one (in size and capacity) for traveling, changing multiple SSDs and RAM is possible (not soldered)... it's not framework, but easily fixable and Linux friendly HW.
T480 is indeed superb (except for being on the heavy side). I accidentally hurled my phone into the screen (both were on the bed and I shook the sheets trying to find the beeping phone). The replacement screen was like $75 and a 5 minute job. On MacBooks that’s typically closer to $600.
I’ll probably replace it eventually with a t14 which is pretty light these days.
++on older Lenovo. Something that Framework might have after many years is a viable secondary and third party market for repair components. Lenovo has also done a great job with keeping their detailed service manuals online and available.
I don't know about you, but every laptop I've had suffered some sort of malfunction sooner or later and I never bothered to have them serviced because it was too much of a hassle - especially seeing how a friend of mine outright battled Lenovo support over mundane things like a failing keyboard despite everything being still in warranty.
Specific issues by laptop:
1. Pressure marks on screen, failing USB ports, cracked hinge after three years.
2. Pressure marks on screen, failed battery, failing power supply socket after seven years.
3. Warped reflective layer in screen, rattling fans, overheating despite fan replacement (which I did at home and it took three hours) after five years.
I also broke the butterfly keyboard on a 2019 MBP I was using at work.
With the Framework I can address each and every one of the mentioned problems myself - just need to order parts and spend half an hour or so per item.
True technically, but there's many people that almost enjoy working on their cars IF they are pleasant to work on. And some are. At that point the car is just an avenue for your hobby of working on cars.
My parents have a Lexus RX400H (hybrid), that even for me as a car guy is a nightmare to work on. It's technically never had a fault since 2007 with 215k miles. But changing the spark plugs was probably the third hardest thing I've done with cars, only behind dropping a transmission and doing a head gasket job on other cars.
Yep, did the same thing too. It's nice that you just need one tool to unscrew, screw things and everything is labelled well that you don't need to go dig to multiple websites on how to do repair/replace parts.
But of all things, replacing keyboard was the most tedious one in framework with so many screws, haha.
Just broke my control key. They're sending me a new keyboard (well the whole cover as chznging the keyboard is hard) as part of the EU garantee.
Awesome. My last laptop had the same problem but the repair employee broke the whole computer when he came to replace the keyboard. Dell then did not want to accept their fault.
I replaced the keyboard in my 5 year old Dell laptop without difficulty. The battery as well (at the same time). It was an instant way to make it run and feel like new
You can swap out the motherboard, so yeah. Not sure how long they support specific Laptop bodies (or frames) for but I would imagine some of their frames are good for a long minute.
You're excited about the prospect of repairing a manufacturer's faulty engineering at your own cost?
An analogy would be buying a new car then bragging to your friends that despite it being a lemon, you're thrilled because you can repair it yourself (at cost).
You’re missing the common alternative in the modern age which is the manufacturer not selling the part at all and being left with a pile of unrepairable junk despite an otherwise functioning device.
Laptop hinges were notorious for killing laptops for like a decade.
"Lemon" was never mentioned. That's extreme. I don't care what make and model of car you choose, I'll show you a list of TSBs associated with that model. There's never been a car produced that was perfectly engineered and had no after-sale issues common to that model and year. There's always something.
Yes, I would be thrilled to find a car that gave cheap and available replacement parts so I could remedy those issues later. That used to be the standard! The trend now is for automakers to keep juicing the proprietary software tools and one-off components, making repairability harder for the owner.
So, to rephrase your analogy: "[That's like] buying a new car then bragging to your friends ... that you're thrilled because you can repair it yourself (at cost)."
I replaced my last laptop after 10+ years because the battery gave out, the end-of-life hardware was so old it no longer got OS upgrades, and eventually apps stopped working. I like the idea of getting to easily throw new hardware at my machine to keep it going.
(I also tired of Apple shoving bad experiences down my throat (TouchBar, Butterfly keyboards, thin glass screens that crack, USB-C and no USB-A...) so I spec'ed out my Framework with USB-C and USB-A.)
But aside from repairability when stuff breaks, a laptop's hardware slowly becomes obsolete because software is usually written for the new stuff. If you're like me and you keep your laptop for 10 years, that means: in year 1 you have 1 year old hardware, in year 6 you have 6 year old hardware, etc. So your laptop gets worse and worse performance because you can't incrementally upgrade your hardware... you only upgrade in a big bang every 10 years when you buy a new one. Towards the end of its life, you're really struggling to keep the thing above water.
With a Framework, in theory I can upgrade the hardware incrementally over time rather than needing a big bang every 10 years. So instead of having 6 year old hardware at year 6, I'll probably have 2 year old hardware again. So I'll more closely match the industry improvements curve.
Will this work in reality? Will it be expensive to replace all the parts, and will the case be able to cool new CPUs, and will I have to get a new mainboard, etc? Who knows. But I thought it was interesting enough to take a gamble on the laptop. And worst case, it's not a fatal decision... I can just go back to MacBooks...
Replacing a CPU means replacing a motherboard - this is mostly true for desktops too. And by the time you’re ready for a new CPU there is almost certainly a new type of RAM to get.
Understood - a new mainboard on the Framework website is around $700, which I still prefer to a new laptop.
I'd be willing to pay more over time to have better hardware over my laptop's life. Meaning, I'd rather pay ~$3200 over 10 years for a Framework + 2 mainboard upgrades + a RAM upgrade vs ~$2000 for a laptop that slowly gets worse over the same time period.
At least with desktop you sometimes get a CPU upgrade path.
For example, with Socket 939, I started with an Athlon 64 3000+, and upgraded later to an X2 4200+.
With Socket AM4, I skipped the first generation, got a Ryzen 2700X, then skipped the next generation, and then got a Ryzen 5900X! (But a solid 4 generations on the same socket!)
The problem is that the Framework starts so far behind in performance and battery efficiency of a cheaper Macbook that you aren’t saving money on perf upgrades.
You really do have to buy it for the idea rather than the reality.
I don't love this comparison, because I have to use Linux, not Mac. It's not really optional for me, and Asahi simply isn't far enough along to fill the gap.
As a result, the question is more Framework vs. Dell or Lenovo, and that creates a much smaller gap in capability in the 13" form factor.
Find me a new MacBook Air that’s $1000 for 2TB of storage + 32GB of RAM, because that’s what I paid for my Framework 13 brand new (before RAM insanity, but this would still only cost about $1200 today).
A $50 battery pack solved the battery efficiency problem.
So for a little extra weight (external battery + FW13 weighs the same as a MB Pro 14”) I get a lot more actual capability in places that matters than a base MacBook Air.
I’ve got two more USB-C/Thunderbolt ports than the Air on both sides of the system with the option to swap them for any I/O I want.
And I’m not stuck with macOS arbitrarily dropping support for my non-upgradable all-soldered hardware every 10 years.
(I also couldn’t really find a similar Lenovo at anything close to that price/spec with the kind of requirements I have - good keyboard with low flex, nice to haves like the 3:2 aspect ratio, generally a programmer-oriented laptop with good. My second choice might be a Lenovo ThinkPad X9 15 Aura Edition. The T14 series has unacceptable deck flex. Even value systems like the IdeaPad 5i 16 cost more. I could see myself enjoying a Zenbook like the Zenbook Duo but again it costs more).
> Framework starts so far behind in performance ...
Honest question and not meant to flame anyone. What benchmark are you referring to regarding performance; spec sheets or your tools are not working correctly or working slowly?
Just trying to understand users needs in upgrading. I have some new MacBooks and some old linux laptops. They both equally work just fine for what I need to do, and I am starting to question the need for me to update to a new MacBook M* chipset moving forward.
> You really do have to buy it for the idea rather than the reality.
There is enormous historical irony in this comment. The Apple Distortion Field was an observable delusion for decades before Apple's ARM silicon.
That said, CPU performance is just one criterion in choosing a laptop, and Framework's modularity is a greater idea than anything Apple has ever done for re-use.
We bought all of ours for the idea of not being glued to the Apple ecosystem, and that reality has provided the performance our group requires. Each unit is the top of the line i7 and they last all day - any further requirements for even faster processing is handled by the server farm upstream. Supposedly Apple knows best about performance and longetivity by enforcing clamshell mode for users that want to use only an externally connected display.
Will this work in reality? Will it be expensive to replace all the parts, and will the case be able to cool new CPUs, and will I have to get a new mainboard, etc?
When a $39 hinge kit costs $70 after shipping, it sounds unlikely I'll be buying replacement parts from Framework, and there's really no 3rd party marketplace either.
Current items in my possession that are still in use and use USB-A
* keyboard
* mouse dongle
* webcam
* microphone
* mouse charging cable
* smart watch charging cable
* SATA hard drive dock
* 32GB and 64GB USB memory sticks
Things that use USB-C
* new SD card reader
* new headphones dongle
* smart phone charging cable
Some of the above could maybe be replaced with a USB-C equivalent, but they are still working and I'm still using them. Why waste money and create waste replacing them?
Even limiting discussion to "routine consumer use": Mouse and keyboard dongles, USB sticks for copying things off the scanner or 3D printer or whatever. Joysticks and game controllers still live in drawers and come out every once in a while. These things are still Just Not Made in USB-C except in a handful of weird devices.
And even then, I'm not re-buying junk that works. I just swapped for a webcam that has a C cable, and ironically it's being used with an adapter because the integrated hub on the KVM switch is A-only.
Also dev tasks like flashing bootable ChromeOS and linux images pretty regularly, connecting to a Flyswatter JTAG adapter, UART adapters, etc...
USB-A was actually a really great plug and objectively works better for a lot of applications than the tiny C connector.
Bluetooth is too flaky for such critical inputs. Dongles will usually bring higer polling, less interference/2.4Ghz connectivity and lower load on the host system. Sadly most are USB-A plugs.
Bluetooth being cnstantly used for audio and so many other things as well might also be at play ?
I still do have a few USB-A: Yubikey, mouse receiver, Streamdeck, USB sticks, webcam, old HDD hard drives I use for backups...
I guess I could, but I would rather not upgrade all of those to USB-C and I really tired of having to carry dongles everywhere.
I even like that if I were consistently using HDMI, I could actually just put an HDMI extension card into my laptop and still not need a dongle. It's customizable to my usage at any point in the laptop's life.
I'm also a laptop weirdo and I've had a Framework 13 with the Ryzen 7 motherboard since May of 2022. I run Ubuntu (currently 25.10) on it.
Its a good laptop, but not a great laptop. Its very light and compact (very important to me), and its been reliable, at least since the AMD GPU driver issues were resolved. The matte screen is fine, battery life is adequate, and the CPU meets my needs as a hobby developer.
Overall, I'm happy with it and I expect to use it for many years.
Its biggest issues are the touchpad (it's a diving board design, so you have to always click in the bottom 1/3 of the pad) and the quality of the case. The case flexes slightly if the computer is on an uneven surface, or if you are holding it in one hand by the corner while typing/mousing with your other hand, and this can cause the mechanics of the touchpad to jam. I've trained myself to tap instead of click, but that's me adapting to bad hardware.
I wish the case were more solid, even though I know this would add to the expense, size and weight. I expect to eventually replace every part of this laptop except the case, so I would appreciate more durability.
Is it a 13 or 16? I have a Intel gen 12 framework 13 and it feels solid except the display is a little wobbly. The original display tended to swing in a heavy wind a bit much, but they improved the hinge at some point.
I looked up my purchase using my Framework account to confirm my purchase date, and it lists my mother board as System: Intel® Core™ i7-1260P. Sloppy record keeping like this doesn't inspire confidence.
It is definitely not, and /proc/cpuinfo confirms it:
model name : AMD Ryzen 7 7840U w/ Radeon 780M Graphics
was close to getting one, more for worry free linux compat than for repair, but ended up with a mba instead for now mostly because of the touchpad. someday i will have my perfect linux laptop. i saw the framework youtube video where they failed trying to make a new giant haptic touchpad. don't do this just copy the mac. after you copy the mac you can try to improve it maybe.
I work international (somewhat of a digital nomad) so perhaps I’m an outlier in my usage. I have an M1 MacBook Pro that I bought new at release. I can’t replace the memory or storage. But so far I didn’t need to do that.
In case it breaks, I walk to my nearby electronics store and purchase a new MacBook Pro. With Time Machine restore I am up an running within an hour. The M1 goes onto the pile of stuff to repair later. And this is where the international part plays a role, in nearly any city in the western world I can grab a new MacBook Pro within an hour.
My day rate is significant enough that downtime is expensive. Not working for a week waiting for Framework to send parts is not an option for me. I can get next day delivery for memory and an SSD through Amazon in most of Europe but that is still a day rate wasted.
> In case it breaks, I walk to my nearby electronics store and purchase a new MacBook Pro.
> Not working for a week waiting for Framework to send parts is not an option for me.
You are comparing apples and oranges here. Apple is internationally available because it is 40 years old and very successful. There's no reason why Framework cannot be that successful in 10 years time.
Furthermore, when Framework might become that successful, no need to buy a full new laptop, you can just buy the stuff that failed and move on. And if that does happen, then experience with Framework promises to be much better than experience with Macbook.
> There's no reason why Framework cannot be that successful in 10 years time.
They don't have the resources nor is their scope large enough. Could that change in 10 years? Maybe, but probably not. I'm not even sure it's something they would want to replicate. Retail costs a lot of money and the benefits to it are quite limited. Similarly a service network that would be comparable to one of the larger PC manufacturers would also be very expensive.
> Furthermore, when Framework might become that successful, no need to buy a full new laptop, you can just buy the stuff that failed and move on. And if that does happen, then experience with Framework promises to be much better than experience with Macbook.
The experience you're describing is still involving a person opening up their laptop to replace whatever the failed part is, assuming they even know what the failed part is. I'm qualified to do those sort of diagnostics on a computer and depending on what it is, it'd still be more downtime than going to buy/getting a loaner laptop in most cases.
I'm not saying people can't learn that but I know that people won't.
Spares kept on hand with the base image is industry standard IT practice, and it even skips the Apple store. When the day rate is high enough to talk about it, they still have to result to ordering just in time.
Sorry! So many questions. That electronics store won't sell RAM and SSD sticks? Which cities have stores that can sell Macbooks but not RAM & SSD? Like why wait for Amazon next day delivery if your SSD or RAM dies? Why would you wait for Framework to ship parts, unless it's the main board. Even then, wouldn't it be much cheaper to just plug in the SSD into an M.2 slot (of any generic new/old laptop) and rsync your way to productivity in pretty much the same time a Time Machine restore would take?
Not just RAM and SSD. Displays can break. Power ports can break. USB-C ports can break. Keyboards can break. PCBs can break. And those take time to ship if you have a Dell, HP, Framework or even an Apple machine. I like being able to walk to a nearby store and grab a new MacBook Pro in case I quickly need a new machine to continue my work. My clients typically hire me for short periods and they need me to work at full capacity for that time period. Waiting a week while Framework ships me a new display is not an option.
A Time Machine restore has never failed me. You are fully operational after the backup is restored. Syncing your data onto an SSD via M2 isn't comparable.
This is why I have a solid desktop and then just RDP into it.
The laptop can then be whatever and if it breaks or gets stolen it's not a big deal. I don't need an expensive laptop and all my stuff is on the desktop so nothing to lose.
Does require a somewhat decent internet connection but nothing special.
The way all of the backup/sync/restore is so dialed in on MacOS/iOS/iPadOS at this point is pretty hard to beat. You get a performant fat client that you can treat like an interchangeable thin client as the need arises.
Exactly. I have a high-speed USB-C disk connected to my machine and an off-site backup. The first is for accidentally deleted files and to be able to quickly recover. The other is more of an actual backup. My iPhone and MacBook are indeed expendable devices at this point.
How about buying (and installing) two cheap laptops, say used Thinkpads (or Framework!?), and then backing up $HOME (and maybe list of installed packages) at one's convenience? These are nowadays light enough to carry around when traveling with luggage. If deemed too heavy, at least a Thinkpad likely is on sale closeby and `dd`ing an ISO image, installing the missing packages and copying $HOME should not take too long.
A bit annoying to lug around for a nomad. I'm in a similar situation where I travel a lot with my mac laptop. For me, the ease of just going to a store and buying one if my current fails me is all that matters.
All the stores I can get to within a reasonable time period stock ISO keyboards instead of ANSI, and I've never really warmed up to those. So I'm stuck with next-day even for macs.
> Will I be able to use the same mainboard for a decade?
Maybe, but you can actually just upgrade the mainboard. Framework has already done that cycle a couple of times. And they made sure the mainboard can work without a battery (not exactly a high bar, but it's better than most), so your old mainboard can pop into a small case and get a second life as a NUC
I think laptop gamers, and developers that use gaming laptops for work machines are somewhat niche (and I'm in that niche).
Because PC gamers often buy desktops. And console gamers buy consoles while handheld gamers buy handhelds and smartphone gamers...
Then there are other kinds of laptop users... the various Macbook users from the lightweight travel Air to the beefy desktop replacement 16" Macbook Pro, and the Windows business laptop users, and the Linux laptop users.
(I think we'd all do well to remember the variety in computers and computer users...)
So yeah, I've rarely bought anything but a gaming laptop that could easily be upgraded via RAM or SSD, and when I've bought non-upgradeable laptops (a tiny Asus 2-in-1 touchscreen) I found it just wasn't for me and I ended up selling it.
My favorite gaming laptops... Lenovo Legion 5 Pro, Acer Nitro 16. My spouse uses a Legion 5 Pro. My sister uses my 5+ year old Legion 5. They've all been a combination of good or great screen, great keyboard, good hardware, pretty quiet except when cranking up for demanding games, and so far all have been reliable, upgradeable, etc. We don't tend to use them on battery, but I've found that they tend to do 4-5 hours easily for basic usage. I wouldn't expect them to do well at all when pulling 100+ W for gaming. (My sister had an older Nitro and the quality was lacking, but I've been impressed by my 2023 model.)
Another happy Legion 5 Pro user here. It's not terrible on battery, but not great either. I usually carry one of those 26Mah battery banks in my bag just in case.
Lenovo has fantastic recent refurbs. It's a bit of a game, but you can find some for around 400$ or less.
My big beef with Macs is I need BIG ssds. If I want to get a 4TB SSD on a Macbook it starts at around 3000$. Recently I purchased a laptop with 2 SSD slots, although disappointingly only one is easy to access.
I'm tempted to go to Microcenter and tell them to replace the stock SSD with a 4TB( the stock SSD is the one behind a difficult to remove heat sink), and then I'd put another 4 tb ssd. Alternatively I could just pay 800$ for a 8TB SSD, install it in a laptop that cost around 1300-1500$ and I'm only spending 2300$.
On a Mac that's about 5000$. I make music and hate external drives with a passion.
First, I think you're correct that a used/refurb Thinkpad is a good solution for many people.
For me, what found attractive about the Framework is that I just don't like the idea of replacing my laptops wholesale. I like the little piecemeal upgrades that Framework offers. I like my tech to stay as unchanged as it can. I don't want to adjust to a new keyboard and touchpad and screen and charging situation all at the same time. I prefer the route of doing little upgrades over time, where things only change a little bit, when I'm ready for them to. Maybe next year I will upgrade the screen; maybe the next year I'll drop the USB-A module for something more useful; a couple years after that maybe I'll get a new mainboard; and all through this it's still the same laptop I've known and gotten used to. This is how I manage my desktop, and Framework lets me do the same with a laptop.
It's just a personality thing I think. Framework's piecemeal upgrade story is more attractive to me, but I agree there's other routes for people with other priorities.
Or buy an up-specced conventional laptop with a ton more storage and RAM to start with for the same price. Get your upgrades in first at no extra cost.
If you're getting a Framework with the top specs and can't get a competing laptop at higher spec cheaper, I can see the argument that you might benefit from the extra upgradability headroom. However that almost certainly means a mainboard upgrade, and I'd be concerned about the thermals of a current chassis with a hypothetical future mainboard.
In terms of hardware, there shouldn't be too many surprises. People have been doing this with desktop computers for ages, so it's known what it means to maintain and upgrade 10+ years old computers. I have one (desktop) that I'm using regularly, and did a few minor upgrades over the years.
Of course, warranty and support quality is a different question.
To me, the biggest appeal of the Framework laptop is that I can repair it myself and buy OEM parts directly.
I currently own a Lenovo Legion laptop. Still, a very powerful machine, but the screen now has a spot in the middle with multiple dead pixels, the topcoat on the trackpad is peeling off, and the main body has spots where palms rest. I'd happily buy replacement parts and install them, but I can't.
I don't understand the argument you can buy Lenovo OEM parts pretty easily? Even if something is not available through the pcparts site I ordered a replacement display via support.
Yeah! I am also surprised. I have a lenovo from 2015 that's gotten it's wifi card, power IC, RAM - all replaced at some point for very cheap across multiple cities in India. And all this is on a Ideapad. One of their budget "professional" laptops, not even a Thinkpad.
While I understand what Framework is doing and the repairability aspect, somehow this conversation always seems to make it seem Laptops are similar to Ipads or something. It's not.
I have been looking to buy a new laptop personally. Framework has a compelling argument. But with only 4 ports on the Framework, I'd likely be switching the ports often. In addition to using USB-C, I often need a USB-A for an external mouse but other times a HDMI port to connect to a display while presenting.
I don't think it's fair to compare Thinkpad X1 Carbon with Framework. The T14 range is a much better comparison. While Lenovo took a few steps back a few years ago the last couple of generations seem to be much better in regard to being repairable. The T14 Gen 5 [0] gets a 9/10 score on ifixit. Parts are easily available globally, while Framework is still somewhat limited in this regard geographically.
That said, it's great we have a choice! If it were not for Framework, I don't think Lenovo would have made an effort to make the Thinkpads repairable again.
My FW13 has two USB-C ports so I can charge from either side and have one free while it's charging, and then USB-A on one side and MicroSD on the other.
That covers all of my frequent needs. (My main monitor has usb-c input, and I have a couple of inexpensive adapters/hubs for HDMI, DP, Ethernet, etc. - all of which are used infrequently.)
I was a little concerned before buying it, and four is probably the minimum number of ports I could be happy with. But in practice I've been very satisfied with my port selection, and if you do need more ports, there's always the FW16.
In my experience (my partner has a Framework), changing a port is not something easily done without putting the Framework bottom side up. In practice you need to stop whatever you are doing to first sleep the laptop, turn it over, change the port and then get back to what you were doing before. Repeat the process if you want to get the ports back in the original order.
I bought the first AMD Framework 13 at launch. It just works and I’d buy it again.
To me their software story is compelling. To use the wording of the article, I like that I can be a weirdo running Linux on a laptop and not be a fringe use case. I had no interest in either of their supported distros but their support forums had the necessary hints needed to get a different distro up and running (plugging in newer firmware from the Linux kernel git).
I like that they’ve given some support to the FreeBSD community and I’d like to run that on a future Framework.
Readit News
This approach even allows the manufacturer to correct design flaws after the fact -- and let's face it, there will always be design flaws. For instance, my FW13 originally came with a very weak hinge for the screen. It was perfectly usable for most daily usage and most people probably wouldn't care, but it meant I couldn't hold it up without the screen tilting back. Well, FW corrected this for those customers who really did care by just selling a new hinge for $24, and so $24 + 10 minutes with a screwdriver later, I had a substantially more refined device! (And to clarify -- there was a defective hinge version in the early batches, and those were replaced free of charge. Mine was a slightly later version that, beyond lacking the level of stiffness I preferred, was not defective.)
I will always loath the Mac UK keyboard layout. Wildly different than ISO and ANSI for absolutely no benefit.
If you get the key caps, they're trivially swapped.
I use Dvorak, and I've swapped keys for every generation of keyboard over the last 10 years. Once swapped, the layout can be set system wide.
For the last six months I've just been using a laptop as a mini pc with no battery.
That is one of the advantages of the bigger name brands, replacement parts are generally a lot easier to find.
If I search for battery stuff shows up, but they only ship bare batteries to the 48 states and Canada.
Contacting support should be able to help you too.
Hope you find your batteries.
[1]https://www.keyboardsettlement.com/
I’ll probably replace it eventually with a t14 which is pretty light these days.
The thinking goes they are brilliant because they are so easy to repair and parts are easy to source globally.
While that’s true, I much prefer to drive vehicles that don’t need repairs.
Specific issues by laptop:
1. Pressure marks on screen, failing USB ports, cracked hinge after three years.
2. Pressure marks on screen, failed battery, failing power supply socket after seven years.
3. Warped reflective layer in screen, rattling fans, overheating despite fan replacement (which I did at home and it took three hours) after five years.
I also broke the butterfly keyboard on a 2019 MBP I was using at work.
With the Framework I can address each and every one of the mentioned problems myself - just need to order parts and spend half an hour or so per item.
My parents have a Lexus RX400H (hybrid), that even for me as a car guy is a nightmare to work on. It's technically never had a fault since 2007 with 215k miles. But changing the spark plugs was probably the third hardest thing I've done with cars, only behind dropping a transmission and doing a head gasket job on other cars.
My framework 13 is OKAY. But the reality of it is the economics just don’t make sense with their pricing.
The biggest thing people can comment on the keyboard is easily replaceable. That’s cool and I love the idea, but any vendor could do that part.
Awesome. My last laptop had the same problem but the repair employee broke the whole computer when he came to replace the keyboard. Dell then did not want to accept their fault.
Vive le framework.
Alas this third party parts manufacturer/supplier never took off.
An analogy would be buying a new car then bragging to your friends that despite it being a lemon, you're thrilled because you can repair it yourself (at cost).
Laptop hinges were notorious for killing laptops for like a decade.
Yes, I would be thrilled to find a car that gave cheap and available replacement parts so I could remedy those issues later. That used to be the standard! The trend now is for automakers to keep juicing the proprietary software tools and one-off components, making repairability harder for the owner.
So, to rephrase your analogy: "[That's like] buying a new car then bragging to your friends ... that you're thrilled because you can repair it yourself (at cost)."
I replaced my last laptop after 10+ years because the battery gave out, the end-of-life hardware was so old it no longer got OS upgrades, and eventually apps stopped working. I like the idea of getting to easily throw new hardware at my machine to keep it going.
(I also tired of Apple shoving bad experiences down my throat (TouchBar, Butterfly keyboards, thin glass screens that crack, USB-C and no USB-A...) so I spec'ed out my Framework with USB-C and USB-A.)
But aside from repairability when stuff breaks, a laptop's hardware slowly becomes obsolete because software is usually written for the new stuff. If you're like me and you keep your laptop for 10 years, that means: in year 1 you have 1 year old hardware, in year 6 you have 6 year old hardware, etc. So your laptop gets worse and worse performance because you can't incrementally upgrade your hardware... you only upgrade in a big bang every 10 years when you buy a new one. Towards the end of its life, you're really struggling to keep the thing above water.
With a Framework, in theory I can upgrade the hardware incrementally over time rather than needing a big bang every 10 years. So instead of having 6 year old hardware at year 6, I'll probably have 2 year old hardware again. So I'll more closely match the industry improvements curve.
Will this work in reality? Will it be expensive to replace all the parts, and will the case be able to cool new CPUs, and will I have to get a new mainboard, etc? Who knows. But I thought it was interesting enough to take a gamble on the laptop. And worst case, it's not a fatal decision... I can just go back to MacBooks...
I'd be willing to pay more over time to have better hardware over my laptop's life. Meaning, I'd rather pay ~$3200 over 10 years for a Framework + 2 mainboard upgrades + a RAM upgrade vs ~$2000 for a laptop that slowly gets worse over the same time period.
For example, with Socket 939, I started with an Athlon 64 3000+, and upgraded later to an X2 4200+.
With Socket AM4, I skipped the first generation, got a Ryzen 2700X, then skipped the next generation, and then got a Ryzen 5900X! (But a solid 4 generations on the same socket!)
You really do have to buy it for the idea rather than the reality.
As a result, the question is more Framework vs. Dell or Lenovo, and that creates a much smaller gap in capability in the 13" form factor.
A $50 battery pack solved the battery efficiency problem.
So for a little extra weight (external battery + FW13 weighs the same as a MB Pro 14”) I get a lot more actual capability in places that matters than a base MacBook Air.
I’ve got two more USB-C/Thunderbolt ports than the Air on both sides of the system with the option to swap them for any I/O I want.
And I’m not stuck with macOS arbitrarily dropping support for my non-upgradable all-soldered hardware every 10 years.
(I also couldn’t really find a similar Lenovo at anything close to that price/spec with the kind of requirements I have - good keyboard with low flex, nice to haves like the 3:2 aspect ratio, generally a programmer-oriented laptop with good. My second choice might be a Lenovo ThinkPad X9 15 Aura Edition. The T14 series has unacceptable deck flex. Even value systems like the IdeaPad 5i 16 cost more. I could see myself enjoying a Zenbook like the Zenbook Duo but again it costs more).
Honest question and not meant to flame anyone. What benchmark are you referring to regarding performance; spec sheets or your tools are not working correctly or working slowly?
Just trying to understand users needs in upgrading. I have some new MacBooks and some old linux laptops. They both equally work just fine for what I need to do, and I am starting to question the need for me to update to a new MacBook M* chipset moving forward.
There is enormous historical irony in this comment. The Apple Distortion Field was an observable delusion for decades before Apple's ARM silicon.
That said, CPU performance is just one criterion in choosing a laptop, and Framework's modularity is a greater idea than anything Apple has ever done for re-use.
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When a $39 hinge kit costs $70 after shipping, it sounds unlikely I'll be buying replacement parts from Framework, and there's really no 3rd party marketplace either.
* keyboard
* mouse dongle
* webcam
* microphone
* mouse charging cable
* smart watch charging cable
* SATA hard drive dock
* 32GB and 64GB USB memory sticks
Things that use USB-C
* new SD card reader
* new headphones dongle
* smart phone charging cable
Some of the above could maybe be replaced with a USB-C equivalent, but they are still working and I'm still using them. Why waste money and create waste replacing them?
And even then, I'm not re-buying junk that works. I just swapped for a webcam that has a C cable, and ironically it's being used with an adapter because the integrated hub on the KVM switch is A-only.
Also dev tasks like flashing bootable ChromeOS and linux images pretty regularly, connecting to a Flyswatter JTAG adapter, UART adapters, etc...
USB-A was actually a really great plug and objectively works better for a lot of applications than the tiny C connector.
And people have huge piles of charging cables that are USB-A to micro/mini USB or USB-C.
Bluetooth being cnstantly used for audio and so many other things as well might also be at play ?
I guess I could, but I would rather not upgrade all of those to USB-C and I really tired of having to carry dongles everywhere.
I even like that if I were consistently using HDMI, I could actually just put an HDMI extension card into my laptop and still not need a dongle. It's customizable to my usage at any point in the laptop's life.
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Its a good laptop, but not a great laptop. Its very light and compact (very important to me), and its been reliable, at least since the AMD GPU driver issues were resolved. The matte screen is fine, battery life is adequate, and the CPU meets my needs as a hobby developer.
Overall, I'm happy with it and I expect to use it for many years.
Its biggest issues are the touchpad (it's a diving board design, so you have to always click in the bottom 1/3 of the pad) and the quality of the case. The case flexes slightly if the computer is on an uneven surface, or if you are holding it in one hand by the corner while typing/mousing with your other hand, and this can cause the mechanics of the touchpad to jam. I've trained myself to tap instead of click, but that's me adapting to bad hardware.
I wish the case were more solid, even though I know this would add to the expense, size and weight. I expect to eventually replace every part of this laptop except the case, so I would appreciate more durability.
I was considering one, but definitely not worth it. I can get a ThinkPad for less and it’s much better quality.
I looked up my purchase using my Framework account to confirm my purchase date, and it lists my mother board as System: Intel® Core™ i7-1260P. Sloppy record keeping like this doesn't inspire confidence.
It is definitely not, and /proc/cpuinfo confirms it:
model name : AMD Ryzen 7 7840U w/ Radeon 780M Graphics
Wait, are you saying it's not possible to change settings so that I can
- single finger tap anywhere for a left click,
- two finger tap anywhere for a right click.
In case it breaks, I walk to my nearby electronics store and purchase a new MacBook Pro. With Time Machine restore I am up an running within an hour. The M1 goes onto the pile of stuff to repair later. And this is where the international part plays a role, in nearly any city in the western world I can grab a new MacBook Pro within an hour.
My day rate is significant enough that downtime is expensive. Not working for a week waiting for Framework to send parts is not an option for me. I can get next day delivery for memory and an SSD through Amazon in most of Europe but that is still a day rate wasted.
You are comparing apples and oranges here. Apple is internationally available because it is 40 years old and very successful. There's no reason why Framework cannot be that successful in 10 years time.
Furthermore, when Framework might become that successful, no need to buy a full new laptop, you can just buy the stuff that failed and move on. And if that does happen, then experience with Framework promises to be much better than experience with Macbook.
They don't have the resources nor is their scope large enough. Could that change in 10 years? Maybe, but probably not. I'm not even sure it's something they would want to replicate. Retail costs a lot of money and the benefits to it are quite limited. Similarly a service network that would be comparable to one of the larger PC manufacturers would also be very expensive.
> Furthermore, when Framework might become that successful, no need to buy a full new laptop, you can just buy the stuff that failed and move on. And if that does happen, then experience with Framework promises to be much better than experience with Macbook.
The experience you're describing is still involving a person opening up their laptop to replace whatever the failed part is, assuming they even know what the failed part is. I'm qualified to do those sort of diagnostics on a computer and depending on what it is, it'd still be more downtime than going to buy/getting a loaner laptop in most cases.
I'm not saying people can't learn that but I know that people won't.
Sure, they could theoretically be a good buy in 10 years.
A Time Machine restore has never failed me. You are fully operational after the backup is restored. Syncing your data onto an SSD via M2 isn't comparable.
The laptop can then be whatever and if it breaks or gets stolen it's not a big deal. I don't need an expensive laptop and all my stuff is on the desktop so nothing to lose.
Does require a somewhat decent internet connection but nothing special.
I literally just brought a laptop 3 weeks ago and I've already upgraded both of those. It's a newer model with an RTX GPU.
I think framework has potential, but it's going to be a decade to see how things pan out. Will I be able to use the same mainboard for a decade?
So far what I'm seeing is a laptop brand which charges between 50% and 100% more with strange customer support issues and a limited service network.
If you're thinking about reducing waste , buy a refurbished Thinkpad.
Maybe, but you can actually just upgrade the mainboard. Framework has already done that cycle a couple of times. And they made sure the mainboard can work without a battery (not exactly a high bar, but it's better than most), so your old mainboard can pop into a small case and get a second life as a NUC
* 11th Gen Intel Core
* 12th Gen Intel Core
* Chromebook Edition
* 13th Gen Intel Core
* Ryzen 7040 Series
* Intel Core Ultra Series 1
* Ryzen AI 300 Series
There are a couple of third party boards from DeepComputing too.
What really excites me is the prospect of 3rd party mainboards and other components. This ecosystem is still just getting started though.
It seems like this is the beta product, I'll wait for the finished one.
Because PC gamers often buy desktops. And console gamers buy consoles while handheld gamers buy handhelds and smartphone gamers...
Then there are other kinds of laptop users... the various Macbook users from the lightweight travel Air to the beefy desktop replacement 16" Macbook Pro, and the Windows business laptop users, and the Linux laptop users.
(I think we'd all do well to remember the variety in computers and computer users...)
So yeah, I've rarely bought anything but a gaming laptop that could easily be upgraded via RAM or SSD, and when I've bought non-upgradeable laptops (a tiny Asus 2-in-1 touchscreen) I found it just wasn't for me and I ended up selling it.
My favorite gaming laptops... Lenovo Legion 5 Pro, Acer Nitro 16. My spouse uses a Legion 5 Pro. My sister uses my 5+ year old Legion 5. They've all been a combination of good or great screen, great keyboard, good hardware, pretty quiet except when cranking up for demanding games, and so far all have been reliable, upgradeable, etc. We don't tend to use them on battery, but I've found that they tend to do 4-5 hours easily for basic usage. I wouldn't expect them to do well at all when pulling 100+ W for gaming. (My sister had an older Nitro and the quality was lacking, but I've been impressed by my 2023 model.)
https://maxrozen.com/replacing-my-macbook-m1-with-thinkpad-t...
and a quick buyers guide here:
https://maxrozen.com/getting-your-own-good-enough-laptop-for...
My big beef with Macs is I need BIG ssds. If I want to get a 4TB SSD on a Macbook it starts at around 3000$. Recently I purchased a laptop with 2 SSD slots, although disappointingly only one is easy to access.
I'm tempted to go to Microcenter and tell them to replace the stock SSD with a 4TB( the stock SSD is the one behind a difficult to remove heat sink), and then I'd put another 4 tb ssd. Alternatively I could just pay 800$ for a 8TB SSD, install it in a laptop that cost around 1300-1500$ and I'm only spending 2300$.
On a Mac that's about 5000$. I make music and hate external drives with a passion.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34878240
For me, what found attractive about the Framework is that I just don't like the idea of replacing my laptops wholesale. I like the little piecemeal upgrades that Framework offers. I like my tech to stay as unchanged as it can. I don't want to adjust to a new keyboard and touchpad and screen and charging situation all at the same time. I prefer the route of doing little upgrades over time, where things only change a little bit, when I'm ready for them to. Maybe next year I will upgrade the screen; maybe the next year I'll drop the USB-A module for something more useful; a couple years after that maybe I'll get a new mainboard; and all through this it's still the same laptop I've known and gotten used to. This is how I manage my desktop, and Framework lets me do the same with a laptop.
It's just a personality thing I think. Framework's piecemeal upgrade story is more attractive to me, but I agree there's other routes for people with other priorities.
If you're getting a Framework with the top specs and can't get a competing laptop at higher spec cheaper, I can see the argument that you might benefit from the extra upgradability headroom. However that almost certainly means a mainboard upgrade, and I'd be concerned about the thermals of a current chassis with a hypothetical future mainboard.
Of course, warranty and support quality is a different question.
I currently own a Lenovo Legion laptop. Still, a very powerful machine, but the screen now has a spot in the middle with multiple dead pixels, the topcoat on the trackpad is peeling off, and the main body has spots where palms rest. I'd happily buy replacement parts and install them, but I can't.
https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/parts-lookup
While I understand what Framework is doing and the repairability aspect, somehow this conversation always seems to make it seem Laptops are similar to Ipads or something. It's not.
I don't think it's fair to compare Thinkpad X1 Carbon with Framework. The T14 range is a much better comparison. While Lenovo took a few steps back a few years ago the last couple of generations seem to be much better in regard to being repairable. The T14 Gen 5 [0] gets a 9/10 score on ifixit. Parts are easily available globally, while Framework is still somewhat limited in this regard geographically.
That said, it's great we have a choice! If it were not for Framework, I don't think Lenovo would have made an effort to make the Thinkpads repairable again.
- [0] https://www.ifixit.com/Device/Lenovo_ThinkPad_T14_Gen_5
That covers all of my frequent needs. (My main monitor has usb-c input, and I have a couple of inexpensive adapters/hubs for HDMI, DP, Ethernet, etc. - all of which are used infrequently.)
I was a little concerned before buying it, and four is probably the minimum number of ports I could be happy with. But in practice I've been very satisfied with my port selection, and if you do need more ports, there's always the FW16.
To me their software story is compelling. To use the wording of the article, I like that I can be a weirdo running Linux on a laptop and not be a fringe use case. I had no interest in either of their supported distros but their support forums had the necessary hints needed to get a different distro up and running (plugging in newer firmware from the Linux kernel git).
I like that they’ve given some support to the FreeBSD community and I’d like to run that on a future Framework.
The old motherboard with the coolermaster case is tucked between two books in my library and is now running my home proxmox.
64GB RAM 4TB NVME 4C/8T 2.5G ethernet and ... 2 Watt idle.
I did run "proxmox in proxmox" with ceph and cloudinit/live migration for a conference I gave on this old motherboard:
video https://jres.ubicast.tv/permalink/v1268c650f5d41v26pt0/ifram...
PDF https://conf-ng.jres.org/2024/document_revision_2424.html?do...
scripts https://framagit.org/guerby/proxmox-in-proxmox
Can you just plug usbc directly into them without using the expansion things?
The cooling seems to travel 90° corresponding to in the bottom and out the back of a laptop. How do you have it between two books?