I like the idea, and we need variety in the market to keep things evolving, but I like the bells and whistles. I just don't want it to phone home. Honestly, I want the title to be 'we don't have a network connection and we can still be a car'. Privacy is my #1 feature.
I own 3 EVs. Two of those, from 2012 and 2014, were built with 3G modems, and fully lost connectivity in 2022 when the 3G networks were turned down. Nothing changed, not even an error message inside the car, except that trying to connect to them with their apps now fails. They're still totally functional cars. The failure mode on both appears to have been "guess I don't have service, I'll sleep the modem." Bluetooth still works, but even if that failed one of them has a functional CD player!
My newer EV that came with LTE connectivity will also fully work without network connectivity, except for the apps and remote updates. You can turn off the built-in cell connectivity via the head unit menus, and if you're especially paranoid, you can pull the fuse on the modem (and I've done it!). When it doesn't have a network connection it too operates just like a normal car.
There's a lot of fear around EVs being "software on wheels" based on a few manufacturers making non-remote features that depend on remote connectivity and botching updates or requiring subscriptions, and I agree that all is super problematic both from a privacy perspective and point-of-failure reason. But there's absolutely nothing intrinsic to the core design of EVs that demands that they're connected to the network.
On some cars you can also unplug whatever radio/modem doodad is responsible for phoning home. I have a Ford Maverick and disconnected the "telemetry module" which resides under the transmission hump by the front passenger seat.
I no longer receive updates to the infotainment system and I can't unlock the doors with my phone, but I also don't have the dealer emailing me service ads with my exact current mileage and tire pressure.
(one of those things I've seen very little discussion of, the WP page correctly points out that this mandates a mobile-station in every car; although it does not precisely mandate that it be always-on, in practice it will be in order to manage messaging promptly)
I mean, even back in the OnStar days, you could "opt out" and cancel the service and it would track you anyway. With BYD or any other car maker, I'd be worried the SIM was a placebo.
Speaking of variety in the market: does anyone know how the capital barrier for developing an EV compares to a combustion drivetrain?
I wonder if, now that China has a developed supply ecosystem, it's becoming possible to build a car with lots of commodity/white-label parts. And I wonder if, as the quality of this supply chain improves, that means we'll start to see more small players emerge?
A data connection still has tangible benefits e.g. remotely starting the AC/heating, live status of chargers / route planning, online map updates, eCall etc
If only I could trust that is all it did. I want 'airplane mode' for my vehicle. I turn my phone to 'airplane' mode all the time specifically because I don't want to give them access to where I am and all the other telemetry. I want incredibly strong protections that their network access isn't abused. Tools like logging all connections by application and the ability to block anything. Blocking when these tools can use the network (only when I have actively let them because I am actively using it for example) and opt-out by default with independent third party auditing of everything they release so I can build trust. I want real guarantees with real consequences when they are broken. I want devices to be mine, not theirs. Right now it is like someone has keys to my house and regularly comes in and installs hidden cameras without my permission. It is evil and people should go to jail for it. Unfortunately though, right now I have 100% trust that they will abuse their position which means I see every 'feature' that connects in any way as a major negative and not a positive. It is deeply unfortunate because I want to enjoy the things I pay for instead of treating them like the enemy that they currently are.
Exactly. If the last decade has shown us anything, consumers will always opt for the convenience features and cost far ahead of privacy concerns. I can't think of many successful consumer products with privacy as their key selling point, despite how many times it shows up here. Apple products maybe, but privacy is listed as feature #6 of the 7 features highlighted halfway down the page on https://www.apple.com/iphone/
As with everything to do with society and computerised features, it is a matter of scale.
Cameras reading numbers plates at multiple locations -including speed! - is one thing.
Noting your : location, speed, direction in subsecond increments, your climate control preferences, what songs/eBook you are listening to, your face imagery (thanks sleep alert camera) and listening to your conversations... this is a whole other level of possible privacy invasion.
Is all of the above being tracked? I could imagine much of that is unwieldy, or not that useful, data. But how can you know whether a company is taking this data or not without first being suspicious? And if you are suspicious at this level, then what could a company say to convince you they are above board, and only using your data to your benefit.
I respect your choice, but do you walk the walk - don't carry a phone, no bluetooth devices, built your own router, run no javascript on your browser, etc, etc, etc.
I like the general design very much. And additionally the fact that it is small, lightweight, and not imposing, while apparently being a fast car.
Except for one thing: the brushed metal dashboard. I can imagine how terribly it's going to reflect the sun from behind when the roof is folded. I hope they can offer a tasteful matte dark version.
As of the lack of bells and whistles, the dashboard seems to be prepared for being customized. I suppose it's not a cheap car, so a customization job is not going to ruin the buyer's finances. I can imagine that a custom radio with protected but visible vacuum tubes could appeal to some buyers.
I'm assuming that its stainless. it were were aggressive about it, it would take a patina for anything from grey to black. stainless also develops a really wide variety of colors if you heat treat it in an oven with good temperature control. there a bronze-like color that's nice, and also a blue.
I'm amused to see that so many cybertrucks have been powder coated or wrapped in vinyl.
'engined-turned stainless' (not brushed.) was used in vintage race cars because it was the non-reflective option and looked nice. hid tooling marks from manufacture.
Same for me. The car looks beautiful and then you see the dashboard and it's just plain ugly. Doesn't match the rest of the car at all. It's easy enough to simply offer another trim option for the dash though.
The post's title was editorialized: the archived page makes no mention of analog. The neutral title would be "The 100% electric Carice TC2: a real retro head-turner".
I think OP meant there were no screens in the sparse cockpit, just some analog gauges.
And yeah electric cars need a battery management computer, a charge controller, and a motor controller at least.
> Prices for a TC2 start at €44.500 excluding taxes (€53.854 including 21% btw/Dutch tax).
> The Carice TC2 complies with the European regulations and can therefore be driven in all EU countries and countries that adopt those regulations, like Switzerland, the United Kingdom, Monaco and Norway.
It very much looks like it's designed to be your second/third/tenth car. Not as impractical as a daily driver as most sports cars, but you won't use it for a trip to Ikea either
Keep in mind a Tesla Model 3 costs €45-60k in the Netherlands, it's one of the most expensive countries for buying private vehicles.
If you built the same car in China it would cost €15k or less. Eventually with enough volume they could probably cut the price in half, producing in one of the cheaper eastern european countries which already have strong manufacturing hubs.
For something of the value proposition of an Mazda MX5 with Nissan Figaro styling, I mean it's not terribly far off the mark. If you want the average Top Gear readers budget choice, the Renault 5 with 255 miles of WLTP range is about €32-34k as an 'everyman' Supermini without serious compromises in any particular area.
Short of getting some sub-BYD CDM manufacturer to compete directly, there's not much scope out there to cut much further than that for an acceptable 2+2 QOL car in 2025. Mainly I can see the likes of Dacia cutting corners in the interior to crew-cab standard and releasing a low-tide mark EV like their proposed 'Hipster'.
Dacia has stated that the target price for the entry-level Hipster is planned at around €12-15k - undercutting Dacia's most affordable electric model, the Spring, with an entry RRP of around €18,000 euros.
Look at the Bugatti Tourbillon. About as analog-appearing as it gets. Clearly there’s a recognition that this is what luxury looks like — but switches (let alone dials!) cost more than touch screens.
My 34-year old base spec Chevrolet has digital controls for timing advance, fuel trim, and integrated Engine and Transmission Control Units. But my dash has some analog components ( fuel level is variable voltage instead of PWM ). The mechanics would all say that my truck is very simple, and "old school"
The Lay use of 'analog' is far removed from function. As long as there isn't a screen, it isn't seen to be digital. I studied photography in college and loved shooting film. I have a processing machine that is based on a 6502. When people would talk about non-digital things as analog it would bug me (One is chemical, and one is a computer).
I would gladly pay extra (in terms of OEM's profit margin) for a de-contented EV that aims to stay reliable, offline, and be easier to field-repair and upgrade as components improve. Our phones are better than any infotainment system. Batteries and motors will get better in time.
https://www.slate.auto 's pickup seems to be heading in this direction, and now Carice enters in a higher-end market segment. If someone does a minivan or other people-hauler configuration similarly, I'd be first in line.
Lack of DC fast charging makes the range even more limiting. It takes 2.7 hours to add another 150 miles. Modern EVs can add 150 miles of range in 10-15 minutes.
It's a recreational vehicle for booting around to and from the country club and out to the fancy places that European gentlemen go on afternoon Sunday drives to impress their mistresses.
Oh that reminds me, I should go check my lottery ticket.
Yeah, the unfortunate reality with EVs is power and weight are tightly correlated, since the power output is limited by the batteries, and more battery capacity generally means more power output.
From the pictures, this is the kind of vehicle that you would gladly pay extra to have delivered to your second vacation home so you can park it next to your 6 other semi-exotic cars and drive it half a mile to the country club on Saturdays.
If that is not your demographic, they might have geo-located your IP and blocked you based on the median income of your area. (Only half joking.)
Oh, c’mon, it’s 44K. One can easily spend 30K or more on a motorcycle these days, we are a long way from “country club” prices. If it came to the U. S., I’d probably pick one up to park next to our Hyundai (yeah, a Hyundai, not a Range Rover).
You're Web browser probably isn't leaking enough identifiable information for the site to judge whether or not you're a bot, so it default to denying you.
specifically, “free” VPN isn’t free. They use your computer that has the VPN software installed as an exit nodes for other customers. Those other customers hammer websites for their AI until it gets blocked. Sucks for you, unfortunately.
Talk to your kids about the dangers of VPNs before it's too late.
It looks like a kit car version of a Porsche 356 crossed with a Nissan Figaro.
It actually looks rather more expensive than it is - it's about 44,000EUR putting it at the same sort of money as a Focus ST. Expensive toy, but not horribly so.
Unsure what it's based on, probably (like the Figaro) some fairly inexpensive existing car's subframes.
Readit News
My newer EV that came with LTE connectivity will also fully work without network connectivity, except for the apps and remote updates. You can turn off the built-in cell connectivity via the head unit menus, and if you're especially paranoid, you can pull the fuse on the modem (and I've done it!). When it doesn't have a network connection it too operates just like a normal car.
There's a lot of fear around EVs being "software on wheels" based on a few manufacturers making non-remote features that depend on remote connectivity and botching updates or requiring subscriptions, and I agree that all is super problematic both from a privacy perspective and point-of-failure reason. But there's absolutely nothing intrinsic to the core design of EVs that demands that they're connected to the network.
I no longer receive updates to the infotainment system and I can't unlock the doors with my phone, but I also don't have the dealer emailing me service ads with my exact current mileage and tire pressure.
(one of those things I've seen very little discussion of, the WP page correctly points out that this mandates a mobile-station in every car; although it does not precisely mandate that it be always-on, in practice it will be in order to manage messaging promptly)
Dead Comment
I really don't get this insane need to track everything. The computers in cars should be pull data, never push.
I wonder if, now that China has a developed supply ecosystem, it's becoming possible to build a car with lots of commodity/white-label parts. And I wonder if, as the quality of this supply chain improves, that means we'll start to see more small players emerge?
(Pure speculation)
Cameras reading numbers plates at multiple locations -including speed! - is one thing.
Noting your : location, speed, direction in subsecond increments, your climate control preferences, what songs/eBook you are listening to, your face imagery (thanks sleep alert camera) and listening to your conversations... this is a whole other level of possible privacy invasion.
Is all of the above being tracked? I could imagine much of that is unwieldy, or not that useful, data. But how can you know whether a company is taking this data or not without first being suspicious? And if you are suspicious at this level, then what could a company say to convince you they are above board, and only using your data to your benefit.
I respect your choice, but do you walk the walk - don't carry a phone, no bluetooth devices, built your own router, run no javascript on your browser, etc, etc, etc.
Except for one thing: the brushed metal dashboard. I can imagine how terribly it's going to reflect the sun from behind when the roof is folded. I hope they can offer a tasteful matte dark version.
As of the lack of bells and whistles, the dashboard seems to be prepared for being customized. I suppose it's not a cheap car, so a customization job is not going to ruin the buyer's finances. I can imagine that a custom radio with protected but visible vacuum tubes could appeal to some buyers.
I'm amused to see that so many cybertrucks have been powder coated or wrapped in vinyl.
It has a standard EV charge port, so it's definitely got computers in it somewhere to negotiate charging at a minimum.
I think OP meant there were no screens in the sparse cockpit, just some analog gauges.
And yeah electric cars need a battery management computer, a charge controller, and a motor controller at least.
A stupid title.
So much of "old school" auto maintenance was having a relatively standardized size/fit for similar components.
For USB sure.... I'm pretty sure this doesn't charge over USB.
> Prices for a TC2 start at €44.500 excluding taxes (€53.854 including 21% btw/Dutch tax).
> The Carice TC2 complies with the European regulations and can therefore be driven in all EU countries and countries that adopt those regulations, like Switzerland, the United Kingdom, Monaco and Norway.
If you built the same car in China it would cost €15k or less. Eventually with enough volume they could probably cut the price in half, producing in one of the cheaper eastern european countries which already have strong manufacturing hubs.
Short of getting some sub-BYD CDM manufacturer to compete directly, there's not much scope out there to cut much further than that for an acceptable 2+2 QOL car in 2025. Mainly I can see the likes of Dacia cutting corners in the interior to crew-cab standard and releasing a low-tide mark EV like their proposed 'Hipster'.
Dacia has stated that the target price for the entry-level Hipster is planned at around €12-15k - undercutting Dacia's most affordable electric model, the Spring, with an entry RRP of around €18,000 euros.
https://www.carscoops.com/2025/10/dacia-hipster-previews-dir...
I can't fathom why we can't have a modern car with analog displays and switches in the cockpit.
I own a 25 years old car which only has a digital radio (removeable!) and that's it, perfectly enough.
My 34-year old base spec Chevrolet has digital controls for timing advance, fuel trim, and integrated Engine and Transmission Control Units. But my dash has some analog components ( fuel level is variable voltage instead of PWM ). The mechanics would all say that my truck is very simple, and "old school"
The Lay use of 'analog' is far removed from function. As long as there isn't a screen, it isn't seen to be digital. I studied photography in college and loved shooting film. I have a processing machine that is based on a 6502. When people would talk about non-digital things as analog it would bug me (One is chemical, and one is a computer).
https://www.slate.auto 's pickup seems to be heading in this direction, and now Carice enters in a higher-end market segment. If someone does a minivan or other people-hauler configuration similarly, I'd be first in line.
- 31.5kWh
- 630kg
- 300km (186mi) range
This review explains the concept behind the car in more detail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aTzuUrdyIc
Oh that reminds me, I should go check my lottery ticket.
You can drive from just about any point in the Netherlands to any other in less than 300km.
For a weekend toy in the densely populated parts of Europe the range is fine.
If that is not your demographic, they might have geo-located your IP and blocked you based on the median income of your area. (Only half joking.)
Not a hell of a lot more than say a Fiat 500E convertible, and quite a bit cooler.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45741357
Talk to your kids about the dangers of VPNs before it's too late.
It actually looks rather more expensive than it is - it's about 44,000EUR putting it at the same sort of money as a Focus ST. Expensive toy, but not horribly so.
Unsure what it's based on, probably (like the Figaro) some fairly inexpensive existing car's subframes.