There's no mention of this in the article, so be aware there's multiple posts online about QC issues. Rotring quality has been going down over the years, or their name outgrew the actual quality of the product. Current generation of 600s especially suffer from: cracking of the body (0, 1); but most importantly for pens, the joint part that screws into the bottom and upper part of the pen is extremely susceptible to wearing out the thin and fragile upper part's threads, as they are two different metals. So you should be prepared to exercise your warranty if you purchase one.
Oh, that's a very specific crack. This is an extrusion error. The extrusion temperature is dropping too low while it's still over the internal die. The thicker peaks cool more slowly than the thinner flats, remaining at a weaker temperature longer, and they're pulled apart by accumulating contraction.
These cracks usually aren't obvious until they meet a conflicting load. For example, tapping threads up the end without supporting the work correctly. It's not like this is a load bearing part, they could get around this issue with a little care. Holding the work in a hex collet during tapping is cheap, adds efficiency, and would solve the problem. Sending feedback to the extruder is free and usually effective. Or maybe the product is moving well enough on brand equity that it's not worth bothering.
> Rotring quality has been going down over the years, or their name outgrew the actual quality of the product.
This story is so common that I wish there was an established economic term for it. Something like "reputational arbitrage" or perhaps "sentiment stickiness".
The basic idea is that a business can change its quality much faster than its reputation changes. If the business rapidly cuts costs and quality, their sales will reflect their reputed quality more than their actual quality for some amount of time. That gives them a window of very high profits where they can basically sell shit like it's gold.
Eventually the reputation catches up with them, but it seems to take a very long time to do so, if ever, so it's an extremely tempting business model.
There is a related but different effect where a brand establishes some level of cachet or meaningful emotional attachment back when the product was good. The product tanks, but people keep buying it even while knowing it's garbage just because of the emotional associations they have with the historical product.
The line between these two effects can be blurry. I think Pyrex leans more towards the former where people keep buying it simply because they don't realize it kind of sucks. But Jeep is the latter where it seems like everyone knows they'll spend half the time in the shop but people just like Jeeps anyway.
Legitimately curious, could you tell me more about Pyrex? I only heard that they changed the formula years ago to trade some impact resistance for thermal shock resistance, not that there are all-around better options. I haven’t had issues with mine, though I haven’t dropped them, and the only other options I notice in stores are store brand tempered glass that seems to be competing only on price.
The original Rotring is gone; Rotring was bought by Newell Brands and is now just a label on copies made elsewhere. (They did the same with Parker and Waterman.) 20th-century Rotring is the real thing.
I had an old one and it broke, so I went looking for a new one,and it just felt cheap. Then I saw a pair at a flea market for $10, and only one had been used. I use a black rubber tape on them for comfort and it makes it less prone to cracking on the handle, and store them in a black box. ( Less UV ). I do keep going back by the store, and hoping their cheap ones get discontinued... But they are still. There.
This is correct. I have NOS Rotrings made in Germany. They sell for a pretty penny online. People who love the pens know the modern production isn’t the same.
I still think that fountain pens are the pinnacle of writing stationery. One lasts generations and there's no consumables that need recycling or disposing of, if you use a rechargeable cartridge and buy ink bottles.
There was this article posted here on HN about the geodemography of left handedness in the US, and all sorts of discussion about past culture of eschewing LH'ded children in schools and such...
and I was surprised that no one brought up the very real downsides of being left handed in a left-to-right writing system region of the world (which is most of it). Most comments were leaning towards backwards conservatism and straight up malice with regard to students being forced a hand in writing early in school and it seemed no one brought up the very real practical reasons for preferring to write right handed, especially with ink.
And I say this as someone who is completely ambidextrous when writing but does not do the 'hook hand' left hand to write, and thus I usually write right-handed with pens and pencils. I have a left handed friend who does write that way and it just screams RSI/Carpal Tunnel to me.
As a counter example, I'm left handed and write hundreds of pages per year in a left-to-right language and don't have issues with smudging lines with my palm.
Maybe the inks I use dry fast enough (Parker Quink or Pelikan 4001) or it's the way I learned to write back in school.
Or if you occasionally spill coffee or any other liquid ever. I sometimes hand-write recipes. Fountain pens + sloppy kitchen meal prep are a bad combo.
Perhaps a silly question, but would something like a Mahl stick help with left-handed writing? Painters and old-school draftsmen use them to keep their grubby mitts off the surface.
I suppose in today's public school you wouldn't be allowed one because it could conceivably be used as a weapon, but it would seem to be helpful.
You need a fast dry ink and good paper.
But yes with usual supplies, it can be problematic.
My kid enjoys writing with fountain pain but her furnitures are given by school and they hand out a lot of printedpaper to fill..So no luck.
Ah yes. I'm right handed and I've suffered from this when trying RTL scripts (Arabic) for calligraphy. It's a challenge to keep your hand from blotting what you've written.
Fountain pens are great but that's only half the equation. You need to consider paper as well.
Because I'm usually using low quality paper, I mostly use ballpoint pens so that I can write on both sides of the page. Fountain pens can feel scratchy on cheap paper and the ink bleeds through.
That probably costs more than I ever spent on all writing utensils I've ever owned.
What makes this cost that much (other than they are owned by uniball)? The material certainly isn't worth that much? And the function would be replicated in the market for less? So, what makes it not some luxury bullshit?
Vanishing Points are nice pens. I have an all matte black one. Also, pens tipping gets polished according to your handwriting over time, making it completely yours.
I also like Lamys. Most of their pens look simple but they’re work horses. Esp. Safari Umber.
Totally agree. I used a fountain pen all the way through school and university.
My all time favourite was the Parker 25 in stainless steel, with a medium nib and blue-black ink. Sometimes I would go for purple if I was feeling a bit raunchy.
I know a lot of people liked the 105, and I had one, and a bunch of others, but there is something about the utilitarian functionality of the 25 that I really have a soft spot for.
I think there was a year or two where I may have flirted with ballpens, but not seriously.
Also even used Rotring and Staedtler Mars technical drawing pens on and off for regular writing. That was always fun in the middle of a lecture with ink everywhere.
It's such a shame I don't get to write on paper that much these days. No real need. Such a beautiful experience though.
Multiple Parker Vectors I had typically lasted a few years of use each before the plastic windings between the pen head and the holder wore out or broke.
My Pilot Metropolitan did the same just a few months back.
I still have the high-end pens my grandfather used that, while mechanically still sound, I am unable to get the ink flowing through them.
I love writing with fountain pens, but long lasting they are not in my experience.
I disagree. I used a Waterman Expert for a long time. It conked out when someone I loaned it to dropped it. I switched to a Noodlers Ahab (which has a flexible nib) so you can do a little bit of flourishing for headings etc. I've used it for a long time and still do. Recently, I switched to a broad tipped Lamy Safari (which was a birthday gift).
My main problem is that most papers can't really handle the inkflow from fountain pens anymore and since the place I come from is somewhat humid, the papers quickly start to bleed ink. So, my more common instrument is a Pentel graphgear mechanical pencil.
I do calligraphy as a hobby so I have separate arsenal of dip pens and nibs but those are not for daily use.
The stainless steel Parker Vector is much harder-wearing and available for under £15. Same nib unit as the plastic ones.
(I found them particularly good when used with the washable ink cartridges, never drying out even after long periods of disuse. The permanent ink isn't as good in this respect and the pens need more regular use.)
Parker Vectors were cheap Parkers in my experience. They were like the 40 dollar nikes that you used to get. More money was spent in the brand than the quality.
I got a Parker Sonnet as a prize in a competition. It is still good, even though I rarely use it nowadays.
Fountain pen requires some skill to write well. It's amazing in the hands of those who knows calligraphy and just creates extra smudges for those who are more used to normal pens.
It takes no time at all to figure out if your only real goal is "I wanna be able to use this as deftly as a regular pen". Really no more difficult than knowing how not to smudge marker by closing a book while it's still wet, for instance.
Well, there are the bottles ink comes in --- I left behind a drawerful of empty Sheaffer bottles at a previous job which I've always regretted.
Agreed, except I have _not_ been able to get my Aurora Hastil to write/fill reliably for a couple of years now, despite cleaning, and I can't send it in to the manufacturer since the tip was ground to a chisel italic by Gretta Lostkemper (who used to oversee custom grinding at Sheaffer). Guess I need to get an ultrasonic cleaner and try that....
Oh hell no. I used fountain pens, good ones, for nearly 20 years. They leak, blob all over the place, are difficult to refill, require cleaning, end up with servicing problems when you really need to write immediately. Also difficult to draw complex diagrams with. Absolute self inflicted pain and misery.
I use Muji gel pens now. None of those problems and you can take the cartridges back to them and they recycle them. And the pen bodies themselves last functionally forever.
That happens on inexpensive nibs which lack iridium (or some similar metal/alloy) tipping.
A tipped fountain pen will be incredibly resistant to wear --- while I did significantly wear down the inexpensive Platignum (British brand, but despite the name untipped steel) fountain pen I had when I was younger after a couple of decades, when I finally switched to using more expensive pens with nibs for tipping, haven't had to replace a nib since.
Yes definitely agree, I own the Rotring 600 and 800 pencil and they are fantastic, as already said the ballpoint version is dependant on the refill. The construction is sturdy and they feel very robust and heavy.
But... I've recently transitioned to Pilot Capless fountain pen and it's night and day with the write feeling: https://www.pilotpen.eu/our-products/capless/ with ink bottle refill. The nib size is important, I found the medium too large and landed on the fine nib size.
That's a very nice pen and I get the appeal. However, I've recently discovered Uni Jetstream pens, and I don't see ever buying anything else. There are nicer pen bodies out there but I've never used a pen that does a better job of putting ink on paper, reliably, every time, without ever skipping in the slightest, not requiring any significant pressure, working on every kind of paper, and drying instantly. For me, it writes as nicely as my fountain pens but with all the convenience of a ballpoint. They're also about $3 each, depending where you buy them, so they're dirt cheap as far as nicely-working pens go.
Also a big fan of the Uniball, perviously was using Signo DXs, but have switched over to the Uniball One. I think that slightly thicker barrel helps with my handwriting. Also love the wire pocket clip.
I do like the Rotring pencils over the pens, but still prefer Uni as I feel less bad about losing a Uni Kuru as it is cheaper and still has knurled grip. Also has a fun rotating lead.
Pigma Microns and Uniball One are my go-to pens. Previously it was Signo DXs as well. I think I prefer the barrel of the DX, but the wire clip and general appearance of the Uniball sold me.
It feels really nice to write with. I also have a Kuru Toga I picked up at a neat little stationery store on vacation, but I was reminded when I got home that I don't care for writing with pencils. Should that change, there it is waiting for me.
The discovery of the jotter style refill led me down a path of trying many different inks for my Rotring 600. I ended up liking the OHTO ceramic rollerball quite well, partly for the ink, and also for the appearance of the nib, which I think suits the Rotring 600 nicely
I agree that, even though the Uni Pens write well, they look a tad uglier than their counterparts. I like rOtring’s heavier feel. I write with a fountain pen at most times when I’m at my desk but I always carry much simpler gel/ball pens. My daughters and I have settled on all sorts of rOtring and we are loving it.
You can buy a Uniball One-F (the premium body) and put Jetstream refills in there as a drop-in replacement.
Note though that for longevity in engineering notebooks I don’t like to use Jetstreams because of the yellowing seepage problem over time. But for everyday throwaway writing this setup is the ideal best of both worlds.
What's the timeline for this? My undergrad notes from ~15 years ago have held up without obvious degradation. Those are mostly Jetstream inks on generic paper (some Oxford notebook). I swapped to fountain pens at some point when I discovered Noodler's. Bernanke Blue dries extremely fast. Though my TWSBIs from the time haven't held up well. They were fine when constantly used but they cracked in storage.
I have several Rotring 600 (and 800) pencils. They're great and super grippy. If you have sweaty/slippery hands while writing, the Rotring 600 pen might be right up your alley.
As pencils go, though, lately I've been fond of the Uni Shift 0.9 mm. It's inexpensive; retracts for pocket carry; and I've never broken a lead with it. My only real complaint is that the eraser is minuscule and can't be reliably adjusted once the initial usable part is gone.
Like Don Norman says, attractive things work better.
And there's always a good reason to go evangelical/Apple about it. A day you spend using tools that you love using is a better day than one where you are using tools that bring you no joy.
As far as evangelizing goes, I'm much more interested in the things you love than the things you hate.
I was thinking the same thing. Why pay $20 - it's still a Parker pen if you use a Parker refill. This has little to do with the quality of writing and is more about bragging rights and social signaling.
I've been using the rotring 800 mechanical pencil for a while now ... until it randomly broke down (no, I did not treat I strangely in every way or form). I'm using the - much cheaper - Kuru Toga Advance now ... which rotates the graphite slighly whenever I lift the pencil from the paper, leading to a sharper tip and thus a sharper script.
Plus, I am a lot less concerned with losing a 5 dollar pencil as compared to a 50 dollar pencil.
The rotring 800 0.5mm pencil has been a workhorse for me. My conditions were that it can handle being carried at all times and not stab me in the leg.
It's even survived going through clothes washing machine. The one part I had some minor annoyance with is the ring below the control to adjust tip retraction would loosen up when carried awhile. I originally used a bit of superglue which came out in the wash. Now I've added some loctite so it will probably never loosen again. Other than some finish wearing off it's been great for years.
Edit: oh I use pilot neox F graphite in it. Feels like writing with HB but it doesn't break as easy as I write with pretty heavy hands.
I had Rotring 600 pencil - absolutely loved it, best I’ve ever used.
But, its tip is very fragile so after it bent I got a Pentel Orenz Nero , it’s close enough, has retractable tip and lead auto advances. It has become my current favorite.
> I had Rotring 600 pencil - absolutely loved it, best I’ve ever used.
> But, its tip is very fragile
I came here to say this. I have a rotring 600 mechanical pencil with non-retractable tip, and it bends if you even look at it funny. It can be straightened again if you insert a sewing needle so it was not a big deal, but it was unexpected how easy it bends.
Heck, I have to treat it even more carefully than my smartphone. Not that I treat it rough or anything, but I have to be very conscious of where I leave it, lest it rolls off and falls off a height of a few centimeters.
Other than that I don't regret buying it, it's been a few years and it still feels nice to use.
Readit News
0. https://www.reddit.com/r/mechanicalpencils/comments/1fzacf9/...
1. https://www.reddit.com/r/mechanicalpencils/comments/1439ru7/...
These cracks usually aren't obvious until they meet a conflicting load. For example, tapping threads up the end without supporting the work correctly. It's not like this is a load bearing part, they could get around this issue with a little care. Holding the work in a hex collet during tapping is cheap, adds efficiency, and would solve the problem. Sending feedback to the extruder is free and usually effective. Or maybe the product is moving well enough on brand equity that it's not worth bothering.
This story is so common that I wish there was an established economic term for it. Something like "reputational arbitrage" or perhaps "sentiment stickiness".
The basic idea is that a business can change its quality much faster than its reputation changes. If the business rapidly cuts costs and quality, their sales will reflect their reputed quality more than their actual quality for some amount of time. That gives them a window of very high profits where they can basically sell shit like it's gold.
Eventually the reputation catches up with them, but it seems to take a very long time to do so, if ever, so it's an extremely tempting business model.
There is a related but different effect where a brand establishes some level of cachet or meaningful emotional attachment back when the product was good. The product tanks, but people keep buying it even while knowing it's garbage just because of the emotional associations they have with the historical product.
The line between these two effects can be blurry. I think Pyrex leans more towards the former where people keep buying it simply because they don't realize it kind of sucks. But Jeep is the latter where it seems like everyone knows they'll spend half the time in the shop but people just like Jeeps anyway.
I thought we'd collectively decided on "enshittification"? Or is that different?
What are the best refills to use for them?
It’s not made to be kind to humans.
and I was surprised that no one brought up the very real downsides of being left handed in a left-to-right writing system region of the world (which is most of it). Most comments were leaning towards backwards conservatism and straight up malice with regard to students being forced a hand in writing early in school and it seemed no one brought up the very real practical reasons for preferring to write right handed, especially with ink.
And I say this as someone who is completely ambidextrous when writing but does not do the 'hook hand' left hand to write, and thus I usually write right-handed with pens and pencils. I have a left handed friend who does write that way and it just screams RSI/Carpal Tunnel to me.
Maybe the inks I use dry fast enough (Parker Quink or Pelikan 4001) or it's the way I learned to write back in school.
I suppose in today's public school you wouldn't be allowed one because it could conceivably be used as a weapon, but it would seem to be helpful.
Because I'm usually using low quality paper, I mostly use ballpoint pens so that I can write on both sides of the page. Fountain pens can feel scratchy on cheap paper and the ink bleeds through.
What makes this cost that much (other than they are owned by uniball)? The material certainly isn't worth that much? And the function would be replicated in the market for less? So, what makes it not some luxury bullshit?
My daily driver is a Pilot Vanishing Point. It's a fountain pen with a form factor of a clickable ball point pen.
I also like Lamys. Most of their pens look simple but they’re work horses. Esp. Safari Umber.
I’m a bit too deep in that rabbit hole. :)
My all time favourite was the Parker 25 in stainless steel, with a medium nib and blue-black ink. Sometimes I would go for purple if I was feeling a bit raunchy.
I know a lot of people liked the 105, and I had one, and a bunch of others, but there is something about the utilitarian functionality of the 25 that I really have a soft spot for.
I think there was a year or two where I may have flirted with ballpens, but not seriously.
Also even used Rotring and Staedtler Mars technical drawing pens on and off for regular writing. That was always fun in the middle of a lecture with ink everywhere.
It's such a shame I don't get to write on paper that much these days. No real need. Such a beautiful experience though.
Genuine question: don't you need to dispose or recycle the ink bottles?
Multiple Parker Vectors I had typically lasted a few years of use each before the plastic windings between the pen head and the holder wore out or broke.
My Pilot Metropolitan did the same just a few months back.
I still have the high-end pens my grandfather used that, while mechanically still sound, I am unable to get the ink flowing through them.
I love writing with fountain pens, but long lasting they are not in my experience.
My main problem is that most papers can't really handle the inkflow from fountain pens anymore and since the place I come from is somewhat humid, the papers quickly start to bleed ink. So, my more common instrument is a Pentel graphgear mechanical pencil.
I do calligraphy as a hobby so I have separate arsenal of dip pens and nibs but those are not for daily use.
I also have a couple ones older than 50. They also work. Clogged ones generally need a good flush with a fountain pen flush.
(I found them particularly good when used with the washable ink cartridges, never drying out even after long periods of disuse. The permanent ink isn't as good in this respect and the pens need more regular use.)
I got a Parker Sonnet as a prize in a competition. It is still good, even though I rarely use it nowadays.
However they are also dangerous, beware of hand movents when holding one, otherwise there is quite some cleaning to do, and even document rewriting.
Agreed, except I have _not_ been able to get my Aurora Hastil to write/fill reliably for a couple of years now, despite cleaning, and I can't send it in to the manufacturer since the tip was ground to a chisel italic by Gretta Lostkemper (who used to oversee custom grinding at Sheaffer). Guess I need to get an ultrasonic cleaner and try that....
I use Muji gel pens now. None of those problems and you can take the cartridges back to them and they recycle them. And the pen bodies themselves last functionally forever.
A tipped fountain pen will be incredibly resistant to wear --- while I did significantly wear down the inexpensive Platignum (British brand, but despite the name untipped steel) fountain pen I had when I was younger after a couple of decades, when I finally switched to using more expensive pens with nibs for tipping, haven't had to replace a nib since.
Deleted Comment
https://www.jetpens.com/Uni-ball-One-F-Gel-Pen-0.5-mm-Faded-...
I do like the Rotring pencils over the pens, but still prefer Uni as I feel less bad about losing a Uni Kuru as it is cheaper and still has knurled grip. Also has a fun rotating lead.
https://www.jetpens.com/Uni-Kuru-Toga-Roulette-Mechanical-Pe...
Pigma Microns and Uniball One are my go-to pens. Previously it was Signo DXs as well. I think I prefer the barrel of the DX, but the wire clip and general appearance of the Uniball sold me.
It feels really nice to write with. I also have a Kuru Toga I picked up at a neat little stationery store on vacation, but I was reminded when I got home that I don't care for writing with pencils. Should that change, there it is waiting for me.
https://www.jetpens.com/Uni-SXR-600-Jetstream-Ballpoint-Pen-...
I also recommend the 800 mechanical pencil which has a very satisfying twist-retract tip.
Sighs and busts out the credit card.
Edit: it’s on its way. Curse you.
Note though that for longevity in engineering notebooks I don’t like to use Jetstreams because of the yellowing seepage problem over time. But for everyday throwaway writing this setup is the ideal best of both worlds.
Although lately I’ve been using this multipen: https://www.jetpens.com/Uni-Jetstream-3-Color-Ballpoint-Mult...
It’s nice having 3 colors of ink available, and it’s not that chunky blue thing we had in elementary school.
I got a box of 12 for a few bucks from Amazon, here is the link since it's hard to search by model,
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002LD1NK
As pencils go, though, lately I've been fond of the Uni Shift 0.9 mm. It's inexpensive; retracts for pocket carry; and I've never broken a lead with it. My only real complaint is that the eraser is minuscule and can't be reliably adjusted once the initial usable part is gone.
I see no reason to go evangelical/Apple about it.
And there's always a good reason to go evangelical/Apple about it. A day you spend using tools that you love using is a better day than one where you are using tools that bring you no joy.
As far as evangelizing goes, I'm much more interested in the things you love than the things you hate.
It's all in your mind. Simple tools are king. They allow you to be creative anytime, not just when holding the "right" tool.
Deleted Comment
Plus, I am a lot less concerned with losing a 5 dollar pencil as compared to a 50 dollar pencil.
It's even survived going through clothes washing machine. The one part I had some minor annoyance with is the ring below the control to adjust tip retraction would loosen up when carried awhile. I originally used a bit of superglue which came out in the wash. Now I've added some loctite so it will probably never loosen again. Other than some finish wearing off it's been great for years.
Edit: oh I use pilot neox F graphite in it. Feels like writing with HB but it doesn't break as easy as I write with pretty heavy hands.
But, its tip is very fragile so after it bent I got a Pentel Orenz Nero , it’s close enough, has retractable tip and lead auto advances. It has become my current favorite.
Fun fact: Orenz Nero is a palindrome.
> But, its tip is very fragile
I came here to say this. I have a rotring 600 mechanical pencil with non-retractable tip, and it bends if you even look at it funny. It can be straightened again if you insert a sewing needle so it was not a big deal, but it was unexpected how easy it bends.
Heck, I have to treat it even more carefully than my smartphone. Not that I treat it rough or anything, but I have to be very conscious of where I leave it, lest it rolls off and falls off a height of a few centimeters.
Other than that I don't regret buying it, it's been a few years and it still feels nice to use.