never used it, but am considering getting it to lay on top of my laptop screen for outdoor coding.
One of the reviewers seems to suggest it is made out of the CPU etc from an old bitcoin miner which is no longer economic to run, but with an extra circuit board added, which is a neat way to get value out of old electronics!
It would be nice to see somebody do a device that isn't crippled in terms of hardware and software. In my experience, most hardware companies aren't very good at software and vice versa. Apple seems a rare exception to this rule.
I'd love a laptop that I can use outside. Even my current macbook pro isn't that good outside. It kind of works but it's not that comfortable on the eyes. And that's supposed to be a screen that is suitable for this.
My kindle on the other hand I can use sitting in the sun wearing sun glasses. Not a problem. Not that I do that a lot, I stick to the shadows. But we've had some nice warm temperatures here in the last few weeks and it sucks having to sit indoors to be able to do work. I'd much rather be in some nice garden or park.
I'd probably buy anything with a decent amount of hardware power and a good screen like this. I'm OK installing linux on it. Not a problem. I can deal with external batteries and extension cords if needed. But I need my laptop to be fast and have decent keyboards and touch pads.
But it seems all the companies in this space fall in the trap of trying to be Apple and then failing miserably on both the hardware and software front. Slow/outdated CPUs, crippled by anemic amounts of memory, paired with somebody's take on how to do Android, etc. When the screen is just about the only thing about a device that isn't shit, it's still a shit product overall.
You could connect your laptop to an e-ink monitor. That's what I do.
I've been using a 13.3" Dasung Paperlike HD-FT e-ink monitor since 2020. The refresh rate is fine for reading and writing code, and most websites are easily usable in black and white. I normally use a terminal-based text editor in light-mode with syntax colouring turned off. It's not great for detailed videos, but sometimes it's good enough.
Dasung have since released 25.3" monochrome and color e-ink monitors, and a more portable 12" color e-ink monitor.
If we're talking about E ink, it happened to study with a guy who had a boox something and it was really cool, however he mainly used it for notes and for writing, and not for coding. I think they offer a lot of products for various needs, perhaps some of them are backlighted. Boox ultra pro c has an underclocked snapdragon 855 so it shouldn't suck too much, just a little. However, they're not cheap
I really miss, and worry that I will never be able to replace my Fujitsu Stylistic ST-4110 which had a transflective display (which allowed using it in full-bright, direct sunlight, even at the beach) and a stylus --- closest I came was a Samsung Galaxy Book 12 (which I wasn't able to replace).
The problem is, trying to out-bright the sun on a battery-powered device is exactly as stupid as it sounds, and solutions such as transflective displays don't showroom well (someone should build a showroom w/ a light booth which simulates a bright sunny day and invite folks to try to use devices in it w/o shading them).
At this point in time, I'm seriously considering switching to a Raspberry Pi 5 as a daily driver (paired w/ a Wacom One 13 gen2 display w/ touch) --- if that display could be supplemented by (or swapped out for) an e-ink or similar daylight viewable pen-enabled display, it would probably push me over the edge (and yes, I've considered just pointing my Kindle Scribe's web browser at a page on the rPi --- if someone has a tool which would allow this to capture stylus input, please let me know).
This company out of Vancouver Canada is doing some interesting stuff, their V1 device isn't quite what you're looking for, but I'd keep an eye on them, my understanding is what you're looking for is where they are going: https://daylightcomputer.com/
They are explicitly mentioned in the article. Where they are headed is definitely compelling, but to echo so many other comments, it’s just not quite what I want, yet.
It has been sold out since years, and the Pine folks said most probably will never make another batch (they complain that it was their worst selling device ever, and they don't want to make any more before full software support).
I tried to get one since years for fun. The only one that I found that was also shipped to my place was in China, and the seller asked for $1000 (+shipping) for it. I passed. And slowly giving up on buying one.
(Also, with it's RPi3-ish SoC it is not really a laptop replacement)
> Even my current macbook pro isn't that good outside.
There's a hack for that. Involves running a full screen transparent overlay which tricks the OS into letting you turn the screen brightness all the way up. Silly that it's necessary but works very well. I don't remember the name of the program.
Your best solution right now is the 13 inch Onyx Boox Tab X. Put it in front of your MacBook screen and connect through VNC, or leave the Mac at home. They can't connect through wire. Or wait and see if they release a color version of the same size soon.
I have a color Boox tablet, and I am very very disappointed about the colors. Very hard to distinguish many colors and shades. Black and white though is really good.
I’m hopeful that the ‘working outdoors’ issue may be solved within a couple of generations of AR glasses.
Something that can project one or two virtual monitors at a workable resolution, without totally cutting off the outside world, and while looking roughly like a pair of glasses.
Any first-hand experiences with the Nxtpaper devices? There's a lot of press coverage of the release official material, especially on the 14 inch model, but few actual reviews. Availability or even infos on availability is an issue, at least in Europe as well.
I just ordered the nxtpaper 11 arrives next week so will post back later.
I was torn between the HannsNote2 and Nxtpaper 11 but the battery life for the HannsNote2 is apparently less than 3 hours which I think is not going to cut it for a device which is meant to take me away from my phone
I ordered the nxtpaper from TechInn - I think they ship global
For anyone that was interested my Nxtpaper 11 finally arrived.
I am annoyed because I realised the Nxtpaper 11 is available on amazon.de the product listing was just buried because it hadn't bubbled up the search and its name isn't great for search.
Have only used it a few hours so some initial thoughts:
- this is my first ever real tablet but its heavier than I thought, its a bit awkward to read one handed especially without anything to grip, I might get one of those hand bands to get a lightweight grip
- the tablet is noticeably slow, you can see some slight frame choppiness when scrolling in Substack for example, but obviously way better than an eink reader
- the Nxtvision settings for reading mode and eye comfort mode are quite nice. Images and figures in documents look pleasingly "flat"
- the resolution is noticeably low, I do notice the DPI is not that crisp when reading PDFs
- I like the matte screen texture it is quite pleasing
- reading code on it via Github was quite fun/pleasant
All things considered for 250 Euros its probably worth a try if you're not too fussy. I can live with the shortcomings, this is a sufficiently niche space that it'll take a while for the perfect product to drop out.
I'd love to get my hands on a Hannsnote 2 to compare
I’m very close to getting a HannsNote 2. The battery life is disappointing, but it is very thin (maybe unnecessarily so). It’s no hardship to carry around a battery in a bag.
I have a crazy idea about VNC or SSH in which case a host laptop might not be very far away anyway.
MKBHD did a review of a TCL phone with an NXTPAPER display and the screen looks like just a normal LCD with a matte screen protector. It has some extra layers physically to limit the amount of blue light, but it 100% looked like any other phone screen with a "paper-like" screen protector on top. The only other thing were the screen modes that would wash out colors (partially or completely) to imitate the "paper look", but it's still pretty much glowing like any other regular display
There are surprisingly few reviews of any nxtpaper devices outdoors. Chalid Raqami did a comparison with two generations of eink displays, stating that the nxtpaper 10s appears hard to read and washed out outdoors but the accompanying video clip hardly demonstrates that.
Overlooking complaints of lack of backlighting, the Panic Playdate's screen IMHO is its stand out feature.
It's a "Sharp Memory LCD" which has the appearance of e-ink and shares it's ability to continue to display an image when unpowered, but has the active refresh rate of a more standard LCD.
It's frankly stunning to see in real life, and it's hard to describe how crisp it looks. Videos do not do it justice. It's truly unlike any other display I have seen.
I would absolutely adore a kindle sized e-reader with the technology, and am hopeful the future brings one.
So Sharp Memory LCD isn't quite unpowered, but it is measured in hundreds of microwatts of power.... Nearly power free. And this is while updating the screen.
EInk is truly 0 energy to hold an image.... but each refresh uses a lot of energy. IIRC, the breakeven vs Sharps memory LCD was like 15-minute refreshes.
----------
Many battery packs have internal leakage in the ~50 microwatts region just a magnitude below to the power needed for Memory LCD.
So Sharp Memory LCD is close to the point where we stop caring about power consumption at all. But not QUITE zero or otherwise ignored. Still very impressive how low they got.
> EInk is truly 0 energy to hold an image.... but each refresh uses a lot of energy. IIRC, the breakeven vs Sharps memory LCD was like 15-minute refreshes.
IIRC the previous gen Kindles used to switch the cover art every 15 minutes or so.
Some people on Reddit speculate the Daylight Computer is also a Sharp screen. Unsure whether memory LCD and IGZO are related as I'm very new to this space (and trying not to fall too deep into the rabbit hole)
The play date screen is beautiful. So is the daylight computer but no colour is just a deal breaker for me unfortunately.
Some charts/diagrams use colours and being unable to understand how the colour is being used is probably going to end up being too annoying in the end for my intended usage even tho I am predominantly looking to read (pdfs and blogs)
For books I still prefer the real thing whenever possible
Yes, I loved MIP models too. I'm really annoyed that the last Gramin Forerunner watch with an MIP display was 955, and it's now discontinued and was recently removed from Garmin's website. All their new models have OLED, and I kind of understand as it looks better indoors but wastes a huge amount of battery when used outside.
I would have preferred they investigate some of these newer LCD screens that can work reflectively and optionally with backlights on.
I'm a long distance runner. So my requirements are slightly different than the average person. But that said. It seems to me Garmin's strategy is clear, the Forerunner and even the Fenix lines are going to be OLED. Where as the Enduro is the MIP line.
Sure there's a MIP Fenix 8, but I feel like that might be something that eventually goes as more people who are newer to sports watches, the people transitioning over from Apple or Google watches.. those people who see 7 days battery life and think "wow" where as we look at the GPS always on time and think "more please".
The absolute pick of this generation is the Enduro 3 now. It's cheaper, lasts waaaaay longer, and does everything we want. Fenix 8? Dive computer, and the ability to take calls? No thanks. I just want more battery life, and better solar thanks.
Yep, I had a cheaper MIP garmin watch that I was very happy with until it spontaneously bricked itself one day. It was just barely in warranty, and they replaced it, but refused to give me an equivalent replacement and instead sent the newer OLED model in the same lineup. It's... fine, but the battery life is abysmal with the always-on display and just OK without.
Anyone using large e-ink monitor for programming? I cautious about trying one because I wouldn't want to wait 1 full second every time I scroll yhe sources
I've been using a 13.3" Dasung Paperlike HD-FT e-ink monitor since 2020. The refresh rate is fine for reading and writing code, and most websites are easily usable in black and white. I normally use a terminal-based text editor in light-mode with syntax colouring turned off. It's not great for detailed videos, but sometimes it's good enough.
Dasung have since released 25.3" monochrome and color e-ink monitors, and a more portable 12" color e-ink monitor.
I tried Onyx Boox Tab X e-reader (13"). It cannot be used directly as a screen, but it runs Android, so it's either some sort of screen sharing or SSH client. Onyx Boox series has its own custom refresh technology that does smart partial refreshes and thus is quite fast.
So I tried actual coding once with SSH+Mosh option, just to see if it's viable, but nothing serious yet. I remember that typing was okay, but more interaction (like copilot autocompletion and tooltips in nvim) wasn't comfortable. But gonna give it more tries for sure.
I converted an old kindle to a second monitor. The refresh rate for typing console commands isn't super important, since you tend to read a command before you finally press enter.
Already widely-available e-ink devices have been capable of far better than 1 Hz refresh for years. The idea that this isn't possible has entered into the Land of HN Tropes That Will Not Die.
I use an Onyx BOOX Max Lumi, now three years old, with locally-installed Termux (Linux environment for Android) and remote SSH fairly frequently. It can run highly-interactive text apps, with slight ghosting, and could probably handle an X11 display as well though I've not tried that.
Even at high-quality display, B&W e-ink offers 2--4 Hz refresh, and can offer ~16 Hz or better in "X-Mode" display. I won't pretend that's great video quality, but it is possible to view animations or videos using it.
For a now-several-years-old demo of what e-ink device capabilities are, with the fastest saved for last, see: <https://yewtu.be/watch?v=KdrMjnYAap4>
There are higher-refresh displays as well. This one advertises 60 Hz refresh and colour (it's not clear whether colour can drive at 60 Hz).
Instead of reflecting ambient light, why not measure it and then emit the same amount? It should be indistinguishable (as long as you reconstruct the RGB colors properly), so you can use a regular OLED display.
Because a sunny day at the equator is about a kilowatt per square metre. A typical mobile phone display is about 100 cm^2 (0.01 m^2), so you would need to emit 10 watts to match sunlight.
As far as I can tell OLEDs are 20% efficient or less so you would need an input power of 50 W. Even at 60 deg. N where I live we get over 300 W/m^2 in August so would still need about 15 W of input power to the display.
It's not about chroma, its' about luma. You would need pretty powerful backlight to match ambient on a sunny day. It will burn battery pretty quickly and require unrealistic cooling.
I like the idea for indoor devices, but the illusion will be immediately broken as soon as you pick up and move around the device unless the ambient light sensor is polling at a high rate
Front lighting isn't always ideal because it increases the distance between the screen and the user and makes it feel less paperlike, which is why Remarkable isn't front lit.
It also uses power. Both types of displays don't need power for light, which is a huge advantage. The power advantage e-ink has is not needing power to retain an image. While that's a requirement for some use cases, they should both have very low power consumption compared to backlit lcd screens.
Readit News
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006647598296.html
never used it, but am considering getting it to lay on top of my laptop screen for outdoor coding.
One of the reviewers seems to suggest it is made out of the CPU etc from an old bitcoin miner which is no longer economic to run, but with an extra circuit board added, which is a neat way to get value out of old electronics!
https://docs.amd.com/v/u/en-US/ds190-Zynq-7000-Overview
Searching the board name "EBAZ4205" brings some interesting results.
https://github.com/xjtuecho/EBAZ4205
https://theokelo.co.ke/getting-starting-with-ebaz4205-zynq-7...
https://github.com/XyleMora/EBAZ4205
https://hackaday.io/project/187351-cheap-35-and-powerful-fpg...
http://cholla.mmto.org/ebaz4205/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/fpga/ebaz4205-(zynq-7000-based...
https://www.reddit.com/r/FPGA/comments/kmk9f9/ebaz4205_recyc...
...etc.
About €30 on Aliexpress, so it's cheap.
Edit: corrected the €10 mistake.
Deleted Comment
I'd love a laptop that I can use outside. Even my current macbook pro isn't that good outside. It kind of works but it's not that comfortable on the eyes. And that's supposed to be a screen that is suitable for this.
My kindle on the other hand I can use sitting in the sun wearing sun glasses. Not a problem. Not that I do that a lot, I stick to the shadows. But we've had some nice warm temperatures here in the last few weeks and it sucks having to sit indoors to be able to do work. I'd much rather be in some nice garden or park.
I'd probably buy anything with a decent amount of hardware power and a good screen like this. I'm OK installing linux on it. Not a problem. I can deal with external batteries and extension cords if needed. But I need my laptop to be fast and have decent keyboards and touch pads.
But it seems all the companies in this space fall in the trap of trying to be Apple and then failing miserably on both the hardware and software front. Slow/outdated CPUs, crippled by anemic amounts of memory, paired with somebody's take on how to do Android, etc. When the screen is just about the only thing about a device that isn't shit, it's still a shit product overall.
I've been using a 13.3" Dasung Paperlike HD-FT e-ink monitor since 2020. The refresh rate is fine for reading and writing code, and most websites are easily usable in black and white. I normally use a terminal-based text editor in light-mode with syntax colouring turned off. It's not great for detailed videos, but sometimes it's good enough.
Dasung have since released 25.3" monochrome and color e-ink monitors, and a more portable 12" color e-ink monitor.
https://shop.dasung.com/
The problem is, trying to out-bright the sun on a battery-powered device is exactly as stupid as it sounds, and solutions such as transflective displays don't showroom well (someone should build a showroom w/ a light booth which simulates a bright sunny day and invite folks to try to use devices in it w/o shading them).
At this point in time, I'm seriously considering switching to a Raspberry Pi 5 as a daily driver (paired w/ a Wacom One 13 gen2 display w/ touch) --- if that display could be supplemented by (or swapped out for) an e-ink or similar daylight viewable pen-enabled display, it would probably push me over the edge (and yes, I've considered just pointing my Kindle Scribe's web browser at a page on the rPi --- if someone has a tool which would allow this to capture stylus input, please let me know).
Have a look at PineNote.
Exactly what I mean by anemic. The only likable thing in that device is the screen.
I tried to get one since years for fun. The only one that I found that was also shipped to my place was in China, and the seller asked for $1000 (+shipping) for it. I passed. And slowly giving up on buying one.
(Also, with it's RPi3-ish SoC it is not really a laptop replacement)
There's a hack for that. Involves running a full screen transparent overlay which tricks the OS into letting you turn the screen brightness all the way up. Silly that it's necessary but works very well. I don't remember the name of the program.
Shiny screens are notoriously bad outdoors.
Something that can project one or two virtual monitors at a workable resolution, without totally cutting off the outside world, and while looking roughly like a pair of glasses.
This has also been my experience.
[SOURCE] Software engineer for hardware companies, for over 30 years.
I was torn between the HannsNote2 and Nxtpaper 11 but the battery life for the HannsNote2 is apparently less than 3 hours which I think is not going to cut it for a device which is meant to take me away from my phone
I ordered the nxtpaper from TechInn - I think they ship global
I am annoyed because I realised the Nxtpaper 11 is available on amazon.de the product listing was just buried because it hadn't bubbled up the search and its name isn't great for search.
Have only used it a few hours so some initial thoughts:
- this is my first ever real tablet but its heavier than I thought, its a bit awkward to read one handed especially without anything to grip, I might get one of those hand bands to get a lightweight grip
- the tablet is noticeably slow, you can see some slight frame choppiness when scrolling in Substack for example, but obviously way better than an eink reader
- the Nxtvision settings for reading mode and eye comfort mode are quite nice. Images and figures in documents look pleasingly "flat"
- the resolution is noticeably low, I do notice the DPI is not that crisp when reading PDFs
- I like the matte screen texture it is quite pleasing
- reading code on it via Github was quite fun/pleasant
All things considered for 250 Euros its probably worth a try if you're not too fussy. I can live with the shortcomings, this is a sufficiently niche space that it'll take a while for the perfect product to drop out.
I'd love to get my hands on a Hannsnote 2 to compare
I have a crazy idea about VNC or SSH in which case a host laptop might not be very far away anyway.
It's a "Sharp Memory LCD" which has the appearance of e-ink and shares it's ability to continue to display an image when unpowered, but has the active refresh rate of a more standard LCD.
It's frankly stunning to see in real life, and it's hard to describe how crisp it looks. Videos do not do it justice. It's truly unlike any other display I have seen.
I would absolutely adore a kindle sized e-reader with the technology, and am hopeful the future brings one.
EInk is truly 0 energy to hold an image.... but each refresh uses a lot of energy. IIRC, the breakeven vs Sharps memory LCD was like 15-minute refreshes.
----------
Many battery packs have internal leakage in the ~50 microwatts region just a magnitude below to the power needed for Memory LCD.
So Sharp Memory LCD is close to the point where we stop caring about power consumption at all. But not QUITE zero or otherwise ignored. Still very impressive how low they got.
IIRC the previous gen Kindles used to switch the cover art every 15 minutes or so.
The play date screen is beautiful. So is the daylight computer but no colour is just a deal breaker for me unfortunately.
Some charts/diagrams use colours and being unable to understand how the colour is being used is probably going to end up being too annoying in the end for my intended usage even tho I am predominantly looking to read (pdfs and blogs)
For books I still prefer the real thing whenever possible
EDIT source - https://old.reddit.com/r/eink/comments/1dw9a7g/daylight_comp...
I'm excited for where these technologies go.
I would have preferred they investigate some of these newer LCD screens that can work reflectively and optionally with backlights on.
Sure there's a MIP Fenix 8, but I feel like that might be something that eventually goes as more people who are newer to sports watches, the people transitioning over from Apple or Google watches.. those people who see 7 days battery life and think "wow" where as we look at the GPS always on time and think "more please".
The absolute pick of this generation is the Enduro 3 now. It's cheaper, lasts waaaaay longer, and does everything we want. Fenix 8? Dive computer, and the ability to take calls? No thanks. I just want more battery life, and better solar thanks.
I went for the Instinct 2 next purely to avoid the OLED infestation.
Dasung have since released 25.3" monochrome and color e-ink monitors, and a more portable 12" color e-ink monitor.
https://shop.dasung.com/
So I tried actual coding once with SSH+Mosh option, just to see if it's viable, but nothing serious yet. I remember that typing was okay, but more interaction (like copilot autocompletion and tooltips in nvim) wasn't comfortable. But gonna give it more tries for sure.
I use an Onyx BOOX Max Lumi, now three years old, with locally-installed Termux (Linux environment for Android) and remote SSH fairly frequently. It can run highly-interactive text apps, with slight ghosting, and could probably handle an X11 display as well though I've not tried that.
Even at high-quality display, B&W e-ink offers 2--4 Hz refresh, and can offer ~16 Hz or better in "X-Mode" display. I won't pretend that's great video quality, but it is possible to view animations or videos using it.
For a now-several-years-old demo of what e-ink device capabilities are, with the fastest saved for last, see: <https://yewtu.be/watch?v=KdrMjnYAap4>
There are higher-refresh displays as well. This one advertises 60 Hz refresh and colour (it's not clear whether colour can drive at 60 Hz).
<https://www.tomshardware.com/monitors/new-open-source-high-r...>
<https://www.modos.tech/blog/modos-paper-monitor-pre-launch-o...>
Video demo: <https://yewtu.be/embed/pXn-bAwzNv4>
It's true that some colour displays currently run slower.
There's also an "e-paper" technology, based on LCD, which offers far higher refresh and AFAIU no ghosting.
(I've been using an e-ink tablet for the past 3+ years, and frankly love it.)
As far as I can tell OLEDs are 20% efficient or less so you would need an input power of 50 W. Even at 60 deg. N where I live we get over 300 W/m^2 in August so would still need about 15 W of input power to the display.
It also uses power. Both types of displays don't need power for light, which is a huge advantage. The power advantage e-ink has is not needing power to retain an image. While that's a requirement for some use cases, they should both have very low power consumption compared to backlit lcd screens.