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Posted by u/zman0225 2 years ago
Launch HN: Roame (YC S23) – Flight search engine for your credit card points
Hi HN! We're Tim and Zi from Roame (https://roame.travel). Roame is a flight search engine that lets you find and redeem business class flights using points and miles, rather than exorbitant amounts of cash. Here's a demo video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fixXuyhofgo We have been flying around the world in first and business class using points for years—Tim for more than a decade and Zi more recently. A little over a year ago, we were trying to find cheap round-trip tickets in first or business class to Asia and back using points. We had tons of points across Chase, American Express, and Citi, but finding a good redemption is always a pain.

We had flexibility with points currency, destinations, and dates. Our only requirement was securing two round-trip flight redemptions in first or business class on the same flight. This flexibility came at a cost: we spent over 30 hours across two weeks manually searching dates and routes on the websites of 10-20 airline transfer partners.

Ultimately, we did find two Japan Airlines first class tickets from Los Angeles to Tokyo for 70,000 points each, returning to New York for 80,000 points each. These flights typically cost between $20,000 to $30,000 roundtrip in cash, but using points, we effectively paid only ~$2,000.

The first class experience was unforgettable, but we didn't want to repeat the tedious search process. So, we decided to build a tool to save time in the future.

I know all this about points might sound a bit like magic, but booking cheap business class flights using points is achievable for the average person. Here's how it works: Credit card sign-up offers range from 50,000 to 150,000 points. These points are either tied to credit card currencies (Chase Ultimate Rewards, American Express Membership Rewards) or specific airlines (Delta Skymiles, United MileagePlus). The most valuable and versatile points are tied to credit card currencies because they can be transferred to various travel partners. This flexibility allows you to choose the best value before transferring points. If you only have points with one airline program, you're limited to their redemptions.

While most people redeem their credit card points through the Chase or American Express travel portals at about 1-1.5 cents per point, transferring to an airline partner can yield 3-8 cents per point for business class or 12-20 cents per point for first class.

The best value for points often comes from non-US airlines like Air Canada, Air France/KLM, Avianca, and British Airways. For example, you can redeem 50,000 points for an Air France business class flight from San Francisco to Paris, which would otherwise cost around $4,000. That's an 8 cents per point value, significantly higher than using the credit card travel portal.

However, the challenges are: 1) most people don't know their credit card points can transfer to airline partners, 2) they don't consider non-US airlines, and 3) manually searching each airline website is time-consuming.

Our tool simplifies this process: Enter your origin airport, destination airport, date, fare class, and number of travelers. After you click search, our tool searches up to 16 different airline loyalty programs in real time and displays the results, including flight information, points cost, and redemption instructions.

The real-time search is free and offers access to 60 days of SkyView, a cached database of the top 6,500 most popular routes categorized by regions (state, country, continent) across two months. The paid version extends access to the full 365 calendar and allows searches up to two months at a time, with email alerts. SkyView is perfect for showing you what is currently available or was previously possible for all your award redemption needs.

We're continuously adding more features and would love to hear your ideas, experiences, and feedback! Thank you in advance!

misterbwong · 2 years ago
Congrats on the launch! Been using your free product for a little while. As a fellow traffic hacker, some random comments:

  - I've been in the points game for a long time so I may not be your target customer.  Take feedback with a grain of salt, I guess.

  - Commissions & Trust: You should disclose (more clearly?) that you're getting commissions from the CC signups and, ideally, that those may not be the best offers available.  (ex as of this comment, referrals are paying 90K to sign up whereas your link is at 60K-an almost $300 difference).  I understand this is a huge revenue driver, but that's not an excuse for shilling affiliate links where the user loses out on real, actual money.

  - Last Refresh: Would be nice to know when the last refresh was.  I've clicked a few times for available seats and found that the airline did not actually have the flights available.  As a user, this erodes trust in your results.

  - Slider: Points min/max slider interface isn't great but honestly I can't think of an alternative.  1 AA point is not the same as 1 Asiana point.

  - Program coverage: Your tool coverage seems similar to the other cached searching tools (Seats.aero, award logic, etc) but, honestly, needs improvement.  Most airlines are quickly moving towards releasing more inventory to their own members, so coverage is much more important now than it was two years ago. As an example, Singapore Air very rarely releases ex-US business class awards to partners but releases them much more reliably to their own members.

  - Alerts: I understand this is part of "SkyView" but you should make it more prominent and clearly marketed.  Alerts are *super duper useful* and give your product direct, permissioned access to a user's email and/or SMS that they actually want!  This is what differentiates you from Point.me and the airline searches and also what gave ExpertFlyer its edge for so long.  My guess is making it more prominent will drive more subscribers.

timqin · 2 years ago
Thank you! Love more feedback, especially from travel hackers.

1) You're right. We have Advertiser Disclosures on all other pages, but will make the disclosures more prominent. Going to push out a change today/tomorrow. Affiliate commissions are not a big revenue driver right now.

2) We're working on a new design so the last refresh is more prominent. Currently, you'll be able to see the "Update ## ago" when you either expand the flight details or click into the full flight details page.

If are using the Roame live search, then it should be the instant you search. Please let me know if you are running into issues with live search results not showing up on the airline website.

If you are using SkyView or Discover cached search, we pull results and save them up to 4 days or so. This is to help users plan and search broadly across regions and dates.

3) Agreed. We try to simplify the UI for points beginners. Thought it would be too confusing to try to estimate AA vs. Asiana vs. United, etc. The value of the points would also depend on which fare class and route you want to take. If you someone only wanted to fly US to Japan in JAL, then AA miles would be gold. But if someone wanted to fly US to Paris, then Air France/Flying Blue miles would be gold even though they are easy to earn because all the CC points transfer to Air France.

4) We're working on adding more loyalty program coverage. Our free tool is in real-time though, so slightly different than the cached tools. We do have a cached tool called SkyView.

5) This is good feedback. Will to work on promoting the ability to set alerts more.

Thank you for the detailed feedback! Please let me know if you see anything else you think would be helpful

arcticbull · 2 years ago
> 4) We're working on adding more loyalty program coverage. Our free tool is in real-time though, so slightly different than the cached tools. We do have a cached tool called SkyView.

Many loyalty programs are very prickly about scraping. Are you planning direct integrations, or are you just going to go head-to-head with Akamai's anti-botting tech?

nharada · 2 years ago
I tried this product recently and "Last Refresh" was a big pain point. I'm sure there's technical reasons why it's hard to keep things fresh (many airlines don't even appear to update their own listings until you try and book) but it was frustrating to find what looked like good deals and then spend the effort to book only to be told it wasn't an existing offer.
timqin · 2 years ago
We need to do a better job distinguishing the two.

May I ask, are using the live search or SkyView cached search?

If you are using the live search (SkyView toggled off), all results are in real-time as you search.

If you are using SkyView cached search (SkyView toggled on), results are saved up to 4 days, but you can search 60 days at a time from 1 airport to all of Europe's airports.

moneywoes · 2 years ago
what have you learnt overtime
timqin · 2 years ago
The biggest lesson is that design and UX is everything for a consumer product in a new category. There is already a lot of education needed with points redemptions, so any small changes to the design including just the color or placement of text, can have a big impact on the user experience.

We get a ton of support tickets when we move something around or make small tweaks to functionality

misterbwong · 2 years ago
Edit: not sure if your comment was meant for me or timqin. Leaving it up just for general awareness

General tips:

  - Never carry a balance, ever.  If you do, forget about playing this game because it'll cost you more than you gain.  Pay off your CC debt first.
  - There are many blogs/sites that push "their" link over ones that pay more to the user because they get paid a hefty affiliate fee.  Be wary.
  - Have a goal in mind before you accrue points so you can be more strategic about accruing.  I recommend starting with a list of all the trips you'd like to take in the next two years and using that to frame what points you will need to accrue.  Don't forget hotels as the cost of hotels can easily outweigh the cost of flights.
  - Figure out how much work you want to put in.  There are levels to the game-the deeper you go, the more work it will be.  It will also get that much more rewarding
  - Prioritize transferable currencies (UR, MR, Cap1, TYP, etc) because devaluations happen often and transferrable currencies help insulate a bit.
  - Try to get your partner on board if at all possible, having a second (third, fourth, etc...) player (P2-P100+) is a scaling super power
  - Keep in mind the "burning" side of the equation and use them often.  Points and miles are worthless bits of made up paper dressed up as currency and subject to the whims of corporations that don't have your best interests in mind.  Treat them as such.
  
My general strategy for a (US based) newbie is:

  1. Read above, create a strategy and an ordered list of cards
  2. Sign up for the credit cards and put all your organic spend on those credit cards to meet spend.
  3. Repeat 1 & 2 after meeting spend and gaining sign up bonus
  4. If you have another player available, switch between players every time you meet the spend and get the bonus to lower your velocity and appear "safer"
  5. You might also want to get a (minimum) 2% everywhere card for everything you can't put on the new cards.
It can get a bit difficult as the minimum spend requirements can be high. There are many strategies out on the web that can help with this.

For a couple using this strategy, you'll be averaging ~2 new CC's per person per year (which is very safe) and earning ~7-10ish percent back on most spend. After a year or so of doing this, you should have enough for a vacation or two.

alex_studer · 2 years ago
This seems like a cool idea! Some random feedback from using the website:

* I'm not really sure I understood what SkyView is? It seems like you need to enable that to book round-trip flights, and you have to pay for it? But then there's also SkyView Lite?? And that's free but needs an account? Is there no way to book round-trip without paying?

* Maybe ask people what cards they have on the homepage? I found it confusing that it suggested flights with points programs I didn't have, and didn't realize you could filter it at first.

* I don't think I fully understood the difference between this and just using my credit card's travel portal to book flights. Is it that you can compare multiple rewards programs at once? Or the idea that you can earn more value per point by transferring them? Maybe it would be good to clarify that on the homepage, because right now it just feels like a generic "book with points" search engine?

* Is there a way to allow discovering deals in any destination? (So rather than choosing a fixed destination, let it be open to any destination, and then plan a trip somewhere where you can get a good deal on a flight, if that makes sense?)

* On mobile, the filter popup is blocked by the "Log In/Sign Up" buttons on the bottom of the screen. Also on the homepage, the "Create an account" notification appears on top of the expanded hamburger.

timqin · 2 years ago
Thank you! Always open to feedback.

1) You're right. We have been working on how to best present SkyView to users. Skyview is our cached search product, which lets users search up to 60 days at a time, search from region-to-region, and set alerts.

SkyView Lite is free "intro" version of SkyView, where free users with an account can search the upcoming 60 days of departing flights and search 7 days at a time. Wanted to let free users try it out before upgrading.

We currently do not support roundtrip because often times the lowest-priced points deals are found on different airline programs. With points redemptions 2 one-way flights are the same price as 1 roundtrip. (There are some exceptions like booking on ANA directly, which requires you to search roundtrip). You can open up a second tab to search the different directions though.

2) Totally understand. It was one of the debates we had. We were trying to balance showing users all the live points results out there so they can make their own decisions on whether to get new cards. We find that a lot of users may have one set of points that are not as useful or easy to redeem. They realize that perhaps they should consider another credit card for better access to deals.

We are planning to roll out a saved card programs feature, so you can just turn on to automatically filter.

3) So when you redeem on the Chase or Amex portal, your points are only worth at a set value of 1-1.5 cents per point (cpp) depending on your credit car program and they're all pegged to directly to the cash fare.

Let's use this example:

New York to Paris on Air France business class would cost around $4,000 in cash.

If you were to redeem on the Amex portal, that flight would costs 400,000 Amex points ($4,000 * 100 cents per dollar / 1 cent per point).

However, if you were to use Air France Flying Blue miles and redeem on the Air France website, the flight could be as low as 50,000 points. At 50,000 points you points would be worth 8 cents per point ($4,000 * 100 cents per dollar / 50,000 points). *Amex points can transfer to Air France Flying Blue at a 1:1 ratio.

So you're getting 1 cpp on the Amex portal, but 8 cpp on the Air France website directly. That's a big value increase.

Roame shows all the live availability if you were to redeem your points on the airline directly using their miles. So we would show the flight in the example above with the 50,000 points price.

4) Yes! We have a Discover feature where you can select your city and dates. You will see the cached flight deals from your origin city. We're still rolling this out, so the origin cities are limited right now.

5) Mhmm. Let me take a look at that. Thanks for letting me know

2arrs2ells · 2 years ago
Congrats on the launch! Curious how you fit into the landscape of award travel tolls like point.me and seats.aero. What are you doing differently & who’s your target user?
timqin · 2 years ago
Thanks! In our view, the more tools, the better to help educate and bring more people into the points world.

We're focused on the beginner points user and helping them through the learning curve of points. Want people to use our engine to book their first ever business class flight.

In terms of product, we provide 365 days of free real-time search across all the loyalty programs we cover and any fare class.

timr · 2 years ago
How are you going to deal with the fact that airlines don't want more people in the points world? (Or at least, they don't want people finding inexpensive redemptions, which cost them money.)

The fundamental reason that it's hard to find cheap redemptions is that the economic incentives are aligned against cheap redemptions existing in the first place. Airlines want the revenue stream from points to be as high as possible, and the redemption rate to be as low as possible.

MattGaiser · 2 years ago
I’m a pro subscriber already. Very nice product.

However, do you have a strategy to at least mollify the airlines?

As the reason I am a Roame subscriber is that:

1: Air Canada brought the hammer down on one of your predecessors.

2. Air Canada implemented a bunch of anti scraping tech, breaking my custom version of this tool and it’s been easier to pay for yours.

The last few attempts at this caused enormous problems for Air Canada and eliminated a lot of desirable Aeroplan space, so I can easily see AC being upset again.

timqin · 2 years ago
Thank you!

We believe that we are ultimately beneficial to the airlines because we increase the value of points and bring airlines, especially non-US airlines more US customers.

When more people find good redemptions for their points, they value their points more, and in turn will be more likely spend money using points earning cards.

Airlines benefit by selling billions of dollars worth of points a year to credit card companies.

davemel37 · 2 years ago
You lost me at requiring registering an account to see flight availability. You need to give some value before asking for my contact info. Too many free alternatives exist that don't gate their search results.

If your premium features are worth it - I'll register. If you want my info - maybe capture it with an offer for an alert after I do my initial query.

------------ In terms of feedback on the broader platform and idea - I think you may be confusing two different audiences. Travel hackers and average reward consumers are different consumers - Your messaging "free flights using points" and attempt to monetize with credit card offers are targeting average consumers - but your search engine and the headache/problem you are trying to solve is really a travel hacker problem - and honestly - its not really a problem - I kinda Enjoy The Hunt!

timqin · 2 years ago
Totally understand. I believe you should be able to access the full real-time results without an account. You can search any date, route, and fare class. Please let me know if the live search is not working for you.

For SkyView Lite, SkyView and Discover, those are the pro features and require an account.

Love the feedback! So yes, there is an inherent tension between travel hackers and the average consumer with points. We are hoping to bridge that gap and flatten the learning curve for the average consumer.

gaadd33 · 2 years ago
Just curious, what alternatives are there that don't gate search results? I know point.me gates them as well.
xyst · 2 years ago
Products like this only support more wasteful air travel. Not a fan of min-maxing “credit card points” either.

These points programs are funded largely due to various fees imposed on the merchants that are often forced to accept the credit cards.

Note: the airline and “signature” cards often impose “premium” card fees in addition to the bevy of other fees (bank, network, transaction, …) associated with accepting debit/credit cards.

cheeze · 2 years ago
Counterpoint: I do like min-maxing credit card points, and I love products like this because I know I want to go on a vacation but don't really care where. So I use something like this and see where I can fly international first class.

Haven't used this tool but I've used point.me a handful of times and have had success doing so. Nothing but positives from my end.

digging · 2 years ago
That's not a counterpoint. The root comment says "this harms others for personal gain," and your rebuttal is "but I gain something".

Just to be clear, playing these ridiculous point games isn't something I'm going to come at you over. It's probably not even the most unethical thing you do, intentionally or otherwise, and I won't pretend I'm living a blameless lifestyle either.

And with that out of the way, yes the entire points system is a huge fucking scam and a leech on our economy. The more you "beat the system" and profit off points, the more you care about rewards programs existing at all. That's why "The Points Guy" lobbies for these programs to not get banned. Those wins aren't a loss for the system, they're costs of advertising.

jaimex2 · 2 years ago
Don't hate the player, hate the game.

These stupid systems have been around forever and we need to exploit them more if you want to see them gone.

You're already paying the fees, may as well get something out of it.

sofixa · 2 years ago
> These stupid systems have been around forever and we need to exploit them more if you want to see them gone.

Or, regulations are need to cap the fees. (cf. the EU)

timqin · 2 years ago
I get it where you’re coming from, but points travel could actually make air travel more efficient by helping fill capacity on planes.

Airlines would otherwise be flying planes with more empty seats without points redemptions. And airlines don’t like cutting routes because they will lost out to new competitors (JetBlue is a great example of a new entrant) or will lose their airport slots.

debbiedowner · 2 years ago
Could you make an onboarding guide for points?

My impression is if you fly for work, you get a lot of employer sponsored points, so it's interesting.

But if I fly 5-10 trips a year personally, why would I try points when I can get 3-5% cash back on my various cards?

timqin · 2 years ago
Great question. So the corporate travelers actually do not get the most value/benefit from points travel because corporate travelers already fly on business. Flying on business class is just a given. Corporate travelers also do not have as much flexibility with their travel schedule or destinations.

It's really the average consumer who has never flown business class that gets the most value and just 1 credit card bonus offer of 60,000 points can get them that flight. Some sign up offers are 150,000 points or more. To the average consumer, flying on business class is a dream experience.

In terms of math:

When flying on points, you can redeem business class flights at 4-8 cents per point. So if you're earning your points 1.5 cents per dollar (eg. Chase Freedom Unlimited), each dollar you spend can earn you 6%-12% back (1.5 points earned * 4-8 cents per point). You can redeem first class for even more at 12-20 cents per point.

This is just the low end. You also have category multipliers like 3X points earned on travel or 5X points on flights with some cards.

The problem is that these saver fare business and first class flights using points are hard to find and can take a lot of time. So Roame is stepping in to make it easier.

We have a guide on valuing points: https://roame.travel/guides/cents-per-point-calculations

We also have a Points 101 guide for the basics: https://roame.travel/guides/points-101

abadpoli · 2 years ago
> corporate travelers actually do not get the most value/benefit from points travel because corporate travelers already fly on business. Flying on business class is just a given.

I’m not sure what your background is, but this seems like a starkly false assumption to me. I’ve worked in multiple industries, including consulting (the one most famously known for frequent corporate travel) and I wouldn’t even come close to saying it’s a “given”. Only very high levels executives or the very elite companies fly their employees business class. In my years and years of weekly travel for consulting, my company paid for business class a grand total of 0 times (I’ve flown business a handful of times, but always upgraded with my own points). My colleague has only flown business paid for by the company once on a particularly long international flight.

I think you’re really shooting yourself in the foot by not paying more attention to corporate travelers. Corporate travelers are by _far_ the most likely to have credit card or loyalty points to spend, but it seems like you’re just brushing them off.

fwip · 2 years ago
> To the average consumer, flying on business class is a dream experience.

Is this true? I feel like the "average" person cares a lot more about their destination than the experience of the flight.

Going to Disney World or the Carribean might be a dream experience, but having a bit more legroom and drinks on your flight is way, way down the list.

borski · 2 years ago
A list of common competitors:

1. https://www.point.me/

2. https://seats.aero/

3. https://www.awardtool.com/

4. https://www.pointsyeah.com/

I’d love to know what the real competitive differentiator is between Roame and PointsYeah/AwardTool.

I’ve used every single one of the tools listed above (and others) at various times, including Roame, but I can’t figure out why, in particular, I’d use Roame over the others.

That’s not a dig; it’s a genuine question. I like the UX. :)

[edit] I just want to be really clear: this isn’t a problem only Roame has. I don’t know the difference between PointsYeah and AwardTool either. They both have a similar Google Flights-style UX, return similar results, etc. Neither explains their differentiators well.

Perhaps if Roame did, that might be a differentiator in and of itself! :p

pradn · 2 years ago
Quite helpful, thanks!