I'm reading The Prophetic Imagination by Walter Brueggemann now and it's giving me very different perspective on prophecy. Dune also changed my thoughts about religion a lot.
The Great Tang Dynasty Record of the Western Regions
This is intended to be an accurate account of a Buddhist monk's travels from China to India and back in the mid-seventh century. The Tang emperor was so impressed with the account, he asked the monk (Xuangzang) to create this historical record.
In addition to accurately describing the imports, exports, geography, and culture, it also goes on at length about dealing with "naga kings" (dragons inhabiting lakes), saints flying around with supernatural power, reincarnation, reputed temple miracles, collected stories of Buddhist enlightenment or attainment, and so on.
It's a similar experience to reading the Illiad or the Odyssey, in that it gives you a perspective on how people give credibility to the fantastic, when there is no evidence.
One theory is the barrier between the conscious and subconscious mind weakens, and the subconscious begins to project into the conscious mind. That may account for visions and a variety of strange experiences. But to the perceiver, these may appear very real.
Shinzen Young says he went through a period of hallucinating giant insects that he could even touch.
So to say there's no evidence isn't entirely true for firsthand subjects, as the experiences may be as real as the rest of their perceptions. The difference with mental illness apparently lies in knowing the experiences are out-of-the-ordinary though.
There's no evidence that an arhat (saint) sat upon his chair each day and flew out over the lake to have lunch and tea with the naga king in the lake. One day, a disciple of the saint got overly curious and hid under the chair. The dragon (naga) king, sensing the disciple invited him to the luncheon, but fed the saint heavenly rice, while giving mere human food to the unexpected guest. A few grains of the heavenly rice fell into the plate of the disciple, who, upon tasting them, became incensed that he was not fed the heavenly rice also.
The disciple summoned all his past good deeds and willed that the naga king die. That very day, the naga kind developed a headache, and died in the night. As the disciple was sleeping, he too died that night and was reincarnated as the naga king. Because of the slight, he began to cause storms to flood the kingdom.
The local king came to the lake and threatened the new dragon saying he would drain the lake and deprive the dragon of its home. The dragon was cowed and the weather became pleasant again, and the dragon made offerings to the king thereafter, except every once in a while he'd have a temper tantrum and need to be threatened again.
Xuangzang did not experience these things. He was told this story by others as an explanation for the climate changes experienced by the local tribe (kingdom).
I don't think we're talking about transcendental experiences here, nor panpsychism, nor hallucinations. I think we're talking about complete confabulations constructed to explain the ordinary world.
Another example was the tale of a king who, needing to leave his country for a diplomatic mission, left is brother in charge as regent. His brother, expecting court intrigue, supposedly had himself castrated that very night. He placed his bits in a box and gave them to the king to take with him on the journey. He bid the king that he should not open the box until his return.
When the king returned one of the other advisors to the court accused the brother of having an affair with the king's wife. The king summoned his brother to execute him. As the brother entered the court, he begged only that the king examine the contents of the box, and take that as explanation and proof of his innocence.
The king, seeing the bits in the box, forgave his brother. After a time, because of the brother's holiness, his genitals grew back.
I got a laugh out of this story, as it's clear to me that the brother had someone else castrated and claimed the bits in the box were his. But the story is presented as "this totally happened."
So I don't think we're talking about the same kinds of things at all.
Well basically any of the numerous books describing spiritual awakenings, since that's what religions are pointing to.
A good overview is The Kundalini Guide [1]. Some of the stuff defies explanation from a western perspective, but the strange stuff is mentioned throughout history and across traditions, so..?
There are also a few academic papers on kundalini now. Just search on nih.
Finally, after 20 years of trying different schools I'm now having the most success with the free lessons on AYP [2] if you want something practical.
That's the best way IMO since without understanding enlightenment as a real phenomenon, people can get quite confused. And what's the point in just reading a travel guide when you can visit for yourself?
The Book of the New Sun is an amazing set of books, from the language (Gene Wolfe uses the conceit that the account comes from the far future and must be translated into English) to the ideas.
a crucial book for a "born-atheist" kid like me, trying to make sense and come to terms with my notion of reality in a very religious and mysitical society
"God Talks With Arjuna: The Bhagavad Gita" transliteration by Swami Paramhamsa Yogananda had surpassed all the interpretations of Gita for me and implanted a different perspective on Body, Mind, and Intellect from the Bhagwat Perspective.
Being a mildly religious person with lots of questions about it I have wondered how prophecy works from scientific or psychological view. Can you share some of the things you learned about prophecy from the book you mentioned?
The religion I fall into has lots of stories where starting from first person/prophet everyone was making the same prophecy about the last one. I sometimes wondered how it works from an external non-religious but still curious view because religion doesn't have answer to this line of questioning (except God) and demands belief.
Your question just made me realise that prophecy is a thing people have wrote about which is new for me.
Abrahamic prophets are not soothsayers or prognosticators. They're poets and social critics that speak truth to power when power doesn't want to hear it in language that cannot be ignored. Their message is shockingly consistent through the ages: we allow people to be oppressed; that is not right; no good will come of it.
Thanks very much for the explanation and the link. This is a new view and a lens for me. It makes lots of sense. I think I am going to have new questions now. This also means they did believe they were the chosen ones and must speak up and that's how it kept going on for generations with similar messaging. It couldn't have worked as well as it did otherwise.
The thesis of The Prophetic Imagination is "the task of prophetic ministry is to nurture, nourish, and evoke a consciousness and perception alternative to the consciousness and perception of the dominant culture around us." It's a fascinating read. I have no idea how I stumbled onto this book.
Readit News
This is intended to be an accurate account of a Buddhist monk's travels from China to India and back in the mid-seventh century. The Tang emperor was so impressed with the account, he asked the monk (Xuangzang) to create this historical record.
In addition to accurately describing the imports, exports, geography, and culture, it also goes on at length about dealing with "naga kings" (dragons inhabiting lakes), saints flying around with supernatural power, reincarnation, reputed temple miracles, collected stories of Buddhist enlightenment or attainment, and so on.
It's a similar experience to reading the Illiad or the Odyssey, in that it gives you a perspective on how people give credibility to the fantastic, when there is no evidence.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32753262/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33360561/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9282169/
One theory is the barrier between the conscious and subconscious mind weakens, and the subconscious begins to project into the conscious mind. That may account for visions and a variety of strange experiences. But to the perceiver, these may appear very real.
Shinzen Young says he went through a period of hallucinating giant insects that he could even touch.
So to say there's no evidence isn't entirely true for firsthand subjects, as the experiences may be as real as the rest of their perceptions. The difference with mental illness apparently lies in knowing the experiences are out-of-the-ordinary though.
The disciple summoned all his past good deeds and willed that the naga king die. That very day, the naga kind developed a headache, and died in the night. As the disciple was sleeping, he too died that night and was reincarnated as the naga king. Because of the slight, he began to cause storms to flood the kingdom.
The local king came to the lake and threatened the new dragon saying he would drain the lake and deprive the dragon of its home. The dragon was cowed and the weather became pleasant again, and the dragon made offerings to the king thereafter, except every once in a while he'd have a temper tantrum and need to be threatened again.
Xuangzang did not experience these things. He was told this story by others as an explanation for the climate changes experienced by the local tribe (kingdom).
I don't think we're talking about transcendental experiences here, nor panpsychism, nor hallucinations. I think we're talking about complete confabulations constructed to explain the ordinary world.
Another example was the tale of a king who, needing to leave his country for a diplomatic mission, left is brother in charge as regent. His brother, expecting court intrigue, supposedly had himself castrated that very night. He placed his bits in a box and gave them to the king to take with him on the journey. He bid the king that he should not open the box until his return.
When the king returned one of the other advisors to the court accused the brother of having an affair with the king's wife. The king summoned his brother to execute him. As the brother entered the court, he begged only that the king examine the contents of the box, and take that as explanation and proof of his innocence.
The king, seeing the bits in the box, forgave his brother. After a time, because of the brother's holiness, his genitals grew back.
I got a laugh out of this story, as it's clear to me that the brother had someone else castrated and claimed the bits in the box were his. But the story is presented as "this totally happened."
So I don't think we're talking about the same kinds of things at all.
I would also add, in no particular order:
- wisdom of the desert (merton's translation of the sayings of the desert fathers)
- pilgrim at tinker creek; annie dillard
- goatwalking, jim corbett
- Impostors of God: Inquiries into our favorite Idols, william stringfellow
- the new testament, trans. by david bentley hart
- the sabbath, Abraham Joshua Heschel
- zen flesh, zen bones
- moral man, immoral society -- neibuhr
- principia discordia
- the poetry and sermons of john donne
- many other poets.
"The Book of Mormon", Smith
_A Case for the Book of Mormon_, Callister https://www.amazon.com/s?k=a+case+for+the+book+of+mormon&cri...
A good overview is The Kundalini Guide [1]. Some of the stuff defies explanation from a western perspective, but the strange stuff is mentioned throughout history and across traditions, so..?
There are also a few academic papers on kundalini now. Just search on nih.
Finally, after 20 years of trying different schools I'm now having the most success with the free lessons on AYP [2] if you want something practical.
That's the best way IMO since without understanding enlightenment as a real phenomenon, people can get quite confused. And what's the point in just reading a travel guide when you can visit for yourself?
[1] https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kundalini-Guide-Companion-Journey-C...
[2] https://www.aypsite.org/10.html
"The Sparrow"
"Lord of Light"
"The Immortal"
"Hyperion"
"The Last Question"
"Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"
"Stranger in a Strange Land"
"The City and the Stars"
"Childhood's End"
"Anathem"
"Eifelheim"
"A Case of Conscience"
"VALIS" trilogy
"The Book of Strange New Things"
"Behold The Man"
"The God Engines"
"Book of the New Sun"
"The Parable of the Sower"
"The Dosadi Experiment"
"Grass"
"Project Pope"
"Calculating God"
"Factoring Humanity"
"Jesus on Mars"
"Surface Detail
The religion I fall into has lots of stories where starting from first person/prophet everyone was making the same prophecy about the last one. I sometimes wondered how it works from an external non-religious but still curious view because religion doesn't have answer to this line of questioning (except God) and demands belief.
Your question just made me realise that prophecy is a thing people have wrote about which is new for me.
Isaiah 58 absolutely crackles with this.
https://onbeing.org/programs/walter-brueggemann-the-propheti...