Ask HN: Where can I find good legal documents?

smohnot · 2 years ago

For those not familiar: Common Paper https://commonpaper.com/standards/ seems to have the best free standard docs.

Here's the post where they describe it https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36043944

here's another one: https://www.avodocs.com/

jakestein · 2 years ago

Thanks for the mention and kind words! I’m one of the cofounders of Common Paper, happy to answer any questions.

Our docs are free, released under creative comments, have been downloaded more than 17,000 times and used to close millions of dollars worth of deals.

If you’re not sure what kind of contract you need, this blog post might help:

https://commonpaper.com/blog/saas-contracts/

navigate8310 · 2 years ago

Are there any templates for businesses that are engaged in manufacturing bespoke electrical components for their B2B customers?

samstave · 2 years ago

Do you know of any similar resources in the Family Law area? (not sure how to specifically word my question, but helping someone with some custody related issues - and wondering if there is some resource I could be aware of to help?)

Else, was going to turn to the GPTs and see what they may muster, but any even general direction pointers would be appreciated?

smeej · 2 years ago

I'm about 99% sure calling it "creative comments" is just a brain slip (or TTS error) and you meant "creative commons," but because that really would be a creative change, and the 1% chance that I'm wrong has a really big risk when dealing with a company familiar with legal documents, I just want to confirm?

smcavinney1 · 2 years ago

I've saved so much time using CommonPaper at my company. Many agreements are still negotiated, but even the cover-page concept makes it that much easier to understand what is being argued.

jakestein · 2 years ago

Thank you!

telebell · 2 years ago

I agree with what lots have written here. The biglaw firms that have notable tech practices are good and have resources for brand new startups. For example, CooleyGo or Latham Drive or Wilson Sonsini's term sheet generator. For PPs and Terms, I tend to start with competitor services and see how theirs are written/compare clauses. The more established the company, the more likely it is that you can rely on them to have had their own docs vetted by decent attorneys, though of course quality isn't guaranteed. I have used TermsFeed as a starting point before.

For employment matters, SHRM's "Tools and Samples" resources are good.

Thompson Reuters has a free 7 day trial of their "Practical Law" product, though I haven't explored it personally.

Techcontracts.com is a good resource.

ETA: these are all starting points - the docs always have to be reviewed and modified for your particular circumstances. But they’re reasonable for the first draft.

(I do outside general counsel work for small startups)

Good luck!

Brajeshwar · 2 years ago

Here are some early Startup related ideas, links, tools that I gather to not repeat my answers to founders asking for them. For Legals, please go to https://docs.inboxstartup.com/operate/legal

Quite a lot of the founders from the mentioned links/startup/companies are friends or part of a cohort. This is a like an Inbox and I might need to keep cleaning them up.

pdq · 2 years ago

Kyle Mitchell is a lawyer that can program, and has done a ton of open source work on legal docs: https://projects.kemitchell.com/

For example, here are his employment/hiring docs: https://squareoneforms.com/

arshakarap · 2 years ago

There are some templates that might be helpful here: https://www.techcontracts.com/contracts

However, if you want to start something big, it's better to find a lawyer to draft your legal documents, especially the ones you publish online (from a lawyer).

traceroute66 · 2 years ago

> Where can I find good legal documents?

A lawyer. A lawyer. A lawyer. A lawyer. END OF STORY.

And I'm saying that from a perspective of someone who used to use free/cheap template docs a long time ago.

The hard reality is that free/cheap ready-made docs are highly unlikely to be suitable for your business context for one or more of the following reasons:

          - Jurisdiction of you or your clients
          - Insurance requirements from your insurer or your clients insurer
          - Clauses not there that should be there
          - Clauses there that are not good enough
          - Clauses there that should not be there

Free/cheap docs are all fun and games until the shit hits the fan and you need to rely on them. Its at that point you'll find yourself wishing you ponied up for a lawyer. Trust me, been there, done that, got the postcard, never again.

Paying a lawyer to help you with legal documents is a necessary business expense. Just like paying taxes, either you pay upfront or you pay the penalty later.

CPLX · 2 years ago

This isn't necessarily true.

I've spent six figures on legal fees easily, and I also use templates and off the shelf stuff all the time. Clerky is a good resource and is fine for most core stuff.

You just can't pay lawyers every time you do everything, it's a waste of resources for small simple businesses that may never go anywhere. And the other issues is EVEN IF YOU DO that doesn't guarantee anything, most lawyers are just using THEIR templates anyways and charging more. If you don't know what to ask for you and don't yet understand the business dynamics you really get almost no value add from having an actual lawyer.

I'm currently paying a law firm about $20k to rewrite a bunch of docs that I used templates for about 5 years ago. I consider that a success, the business now has millions in revenue and can afford it and it's fine. That's a pretty normal sequence of events in business.

traceroute66 · 2 years ago

> it's a waste of resources for small simple businesses that may never go anywhere.

As per my original post. That statement is one made from the comfortable armchair of somebody who has not had to litigate off the back of a free/cheap ready-made contract.

What is a waste of resources is paying a lawyer to try to get you off the hook for something that could have reasonably been in the contract in the first place had you had it drafted for your specific business context rather than relying on some shit internet template.

> most lawyers are just using THEIR templates anyways and charging more.

This is bullshit and you know it.

Yes, lawyers use base templates, but that's because there are some clauses that will always need to be there no matter what. However the devil is in the details and the lawyers also sit down with you to understand your business context and those templates get edited, sometimes heavily edited depending on the business context.

The point is that you are paying the lawyer for their experience. They know what should be kept in the template. They know what should be removed from the template. They know what should be added to the template AND they know how to add stuff to the templates in a legally correct manner.

You claim to have spent time with lawyers drafting legal documents, ergo you should know that and not spread FUD.

fortran77 · 2 years ago

Exactly. These free legal documents are great—until you have to litigate one.

grepfru_it · 2 years ago

Extending this thread because it costs maybe max 2 hours of consult time with a lawyer to put one together. $500 today can save you from a $5M lawsuit tomorrow.

And even then you should still read it and become intimately knowledgeable with each provision

fratimo66 · 2 years ago

I work for iubenda (https://www.iubenda.com/) and it's a precious tool for website compliance. I was a user myself before joining the team.

You can get: Privacy Policy/T&C/Cookie and Consent Banner as well as a Consent Database tool.

The onboarding starts with a scan of your website, and you are suggested to use specific configurations based on the legislation that will apply to your website. Moreover, iubenda scans regularly your website and checks for non-compliance clues (e.g. a missing service in your privacy policy).

Pricing: there's a free plan for you to start with a basic configuration + pay as you grow.

haebom · 2 years ago

I had a similar problem and found that the ones I made from free sites or using different terminology are often wrong or say the wrong things that don't fit our service. In the end, we outsourced it to a professional legal service. (The ones that make them for free or for a fraction of the cost are often templated and fill-in-the-blank, which is attractive, but has obvious limitations).