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Posted by u/cpeth 2 years ago
Ask HN: Are job referrals worthless now?
I've been looking for work the past few months. I've never been great at the people-networking side of the software engineering business but know enough people to get some good referrals from Staff Engineer / Director level former coworkers. Despite meeting all the requirements, and being referred by a current employee...I'm just getting simple rejection emails. Previously I thought of referrals as a great signal that someone was good candidate and was worth at least a phone call. Is that no longer the case?
tyingq · 2 years ago
There's two kinds of referrals...the official ones with a program that goes through HR, then the unofficial where someone you know knows a hiring leader with an open spot. The latter is infinitely better.
Clubber · 2 years ago
This. Referrals don't mean much at a company with a heavy, rigid bureaucracy. You still have to go through the machine.
fallingknife · 2 years ago
But usually in my experience they do mean you actually get to go through the machine and aren't just auto rejected without even getting to talk to a human.
toasted-subs · 2 years ago
Anecdotally, providing references for one organization seems to open doors for others.
gregjor · 2 years ago
No, you shouldn't generalize from a few examples. A good referral will get your CV in front of the hiring manager, skipping the screening and HR process. If you just get permission to put someone's name on the application that may not count for much. You should ask your contacts to get you on the short list so you bypass at least some of the hiring funnel.

Right now the job market for more junior people looks brutal -- too many people with little experience and the same "skills" mix chasing a reduced number of jobs. If you are still early in your career you will find job hunting tough right now regardless of contacts and referrals.

cpeth · 2 years ago
I think it might be brutal for more than junior people now. I thought I would be fine when my previous employer decided to offshore all of engineering and I was laid off as a result. I have been at an architect/lead/principal level for the last 7 years doing backend work with mostly state-of-the-art tech on AWS. 15 years experience total, and just getting no traction despite referrals. None of my jobs were at hyperscale FAANG types, or super sexy stuff. I'm not a thought leader with an influential blog nor have I built an open source library with 5k stars. Maybe that is what it takes to get a call back now? I'm a regular hacker who loves technology and never dreamed I would be struggling this badly.
popularonion · 2 years ago
I have 15 years of experience working on boring tech stacks, no social media presence at all, and I’m doing okay.

I’d suggest hitting up some tech recruiters and downgrading your past job titles. As far as your job search is concerned, you weren’t a “lead architect” using “state-of-the-art tech”, you were a Staff DevOps Engineer with experience in <insert AWS buzzwords here>. Etc etc.

reactordev · 2 years ago
Mindset. Be humble and open to learning, don’t be desperate. Explain that this is what you love to do. That you genuinely care about the product/mission/service and you’ll land something. If you go in “I need a paycheck, I can code”, that’s not very compelling. I can teach someone to code. What I can’t teach is for someone to be hungry to learn.

So be positive, be humble, be sharp, and be willing.

Also, numbers game. 200 applications -> 63 interviews -> 12 callbacks -> 4 complete interview process -> 2 offers.

MarkMarine · 2 years ago
They are not worthless at all, at my company if you get a referral you will skip the phone interview and go right to in-person, and you're going to get called about it.

When we are hiring.

There is the rub, there are a number of companies that are either actively laying off, or just letting attrition nibble down their numbers without having to announce layoffs.

john-radio · 2 years ago
> or just letting attrition nibble down their numbers without having to announce layoffs.

When you say it like that it sounds mean, but it's a pretty civilized way to handle downsizing if you ask me.

Clubber · 2 years ago
>it's a pretty civilized way to handle downsizing if you ask me.

It is. Some companies will also offer the old timers early retirement packages. There are companies like this out there still, they just don't make headlines by being civil.

MarkMarine · 2 years ago
I didn’t mean it to sound mean. I much prefer that to layoffs.
Manouchehri · 2 years ago
A few years ago I did one or two phone interviews with a FAANG company, passed with flying colours, and was told by a manager I'd be flown in for the final on-site interview. The manager told me to send my resume to HR so they could make it official..

...and I got rejected by HR, because I didn't have 8 years of working experience at 23.

Still the funniest job hunting story I have.

bastawhiz · 2 years ago
I referred maybe thirty people to Stripe and I think maybe two of them got interviews. Nobody got an offer. At Uber, zero of my referrals were followed up on. At Box, I don't remember any referrals getting followed up on.

I won't say they're worthless, but don't feel bad that you are getting the response that you are. Nearly every place I've been (and lots of places that friends are at) do an abysmal job of following up on referrals and taking them seriously.

That said, you might want to ask a trusted friend to look at your online presence (LinkedIn, GitHub) and offer some critical feedback. It may simply be the case that—despite being well qualified—you don't look that way to recruiters following up on what amounts to a ticket in a queue.

pardoned_turkey · 2 years ago
It matters why you're making the referral. I've seen far too many referrals made just because a stranger or a social acquittance pinged an employee on LinkedIn. And the employee's thinking is "why not". After all, they're helping a person in need and there might be a referral bonus for them down the line.

I'm a recruiting coordinator or a hiring manager, there's nothing that signals to me that this is a good lead. I assume you're just doing this as a courtesy. I might take a cursory glance, but if the resume doesn't look particularly exciting, onto the pile it goes.

The "how" part matters too. If you're referring a person who you know is amazing at their job, say so, and be specific. "I spent five years working with them at Foobar Industries and they are easily in the top 1% of all engineers at that company" is likely to get attention. "I know this person and I think they may be a fit" isn't.

lubujackson · 2 years ago
Even if a referral comes from a LinkedIn random request, I would value that as a signal that, at a minimum, the prospect is putting in extra effort beyond most "click to apply" resumes. If you get 200 resumes for a role and lets say 20 come with a referral, why wouldn't you factor that at all?
caydenm · 2 years ago
The strength of a referral, the proximity and seniority of the referrer and role fit all come into play.

A strong referral by a knowledgeable person often skips that person to the front of interview queue. I have hired a number of people based on referrals from team members, VCs and previous coworkers.

Many referral systems have a how good do you think this personal really is field and often an option for "I don't know this person that well I am just referring them to say I did".

If you are asking for a referral, make it as easy as possible for the referer to make you look great. They probably don't remember all your awesome work like you do, so make sure you give them simple impactful points.

ChuckMcM · 2 years ago
Someone referring you (with a positive hire recommendation) from inside the company is always a good thing. Someone referring you for the referral 'bonus' is not worth as much because what makes the first one good is that the person referring can explain why you would be a good fit.

That said, reputations are a thing too. All through my career I've had a mix of people who thought I was great to people who thought I was terrible. It is often a function of how and when you interacted with them, at one place I worked I discovered that a person I had worked with before was had been actively "anti-recruiting" in that they didn't want me to come work there[1]. I was fortunate in that the hiring manager took the time to get a number of opinions and look past the drama and into what really was going on, but it certainly delayed things significantly and would have resulted in a decline had they not been willing to do that digging. This only gets worse the more senior you become because you have more opportunities to be perceived as having limited someone else's career/choices/etc.

So 'referrals' in all forms are a net positive, some can be more positive than others.

That said, one of the more interesting hires I did was a guy who offered to come work for me for free for two weeks on the promise that at the end of the two weeks we'd either hire him or not. Was a bit challenging to get that through HR/Legal (but we did) and he turned out to be great. But it wasn't obvious from his CV that he was as capable as he was and he did not have anyone locally that could be a reference.

[1] I did reconcile what had happened with this person but they were completely accurate when they described me as an "asshole". I really was annoying early in my career, but that didn't become clear to me until later.

naet · 2 years ago
Absolutely not, job referrals are extremely valuable and probably the best way you can fasttrack or boost your interview chances. They aren't a guaranteed job offer, but they're far from worthless.