I'm looking forward to AI models that can describe, classify, and recommend music. Obviously there's Shazam and things like Cyanite (https://cyanite.ai/) but hopefully there will be some good open source models too shortly.
You could imagine Ishkur's Guide V3 is constructed automatically by AI models, and places every track somewhere on the map, listing all the genres and influences, etc.
I dunno, I like the human touch; music genres aren't an exact science (is this blackened death metal or deathened black metal? Is there a difference?). I mean the data is there; see https://everynoise.com/, probably linked elsewhere, for a very big list of music genres + examples that IIRC come from Spotify's data lake. That can be used to train a model, I suppose.
I'd like to see a recommendation program that trains on the many, many aspects of music itself that a person listens to. Rather than artists/labels/style slots/norms/years of release/charts ... it'd analyze your preferences in tempo, melody, harmony, instruments (type and number), vocal styles, novelty. (Getting started would take a while, say, over a month.)
Then to refine its model, it'd have you rate some picks (old and new based on what it knows so far), and analyze how your responses fit its model. Would it get better faster for people who like a wide variety, or those with a few specialities?
Pandora was largely the first LLM/trained AI. They just used music "genes" (words) and tokenized on that and their relationship. The difference was that the success model it used was based on a variable/semi-arbitrary input (personal tastes) with weighting vs an objective model (dictionaries/documents; or, for things like game playing AI, a goal to reach).
I personally am pretty fine with using Ishkur's guide on my own, searching by myself what I like and filtering out what I don't like, and knowing what's what I don't like and why. I've been going back to it for the last 3 years and I'm not even half the road, yet.
Love the humour on this site. "Drum n Bass MCs aren't like Hip Hop MCs. Some rhyme but most are just glorified hype-men. And some are quite good but most just sound like they're trying to eat a set mousetrap." :D
Bahaha! I started getting into DnB in the mid-nineties and have left shows because of MCs that I just couldn't tolerate.
And while we're on the topic, and because it's rare for me to get to chat about DnB with anyone... here are some fun short stories from over the years:
A friends Dad happened by when I was listening to DnB without headphones and said "THAT is NOT music... it sounds like a toilet flushing".
---
I like listening to DnB during focus-intensive work. On a road trip with friends I'd been working without music for a bit and when I finally put headphones on with some DnB my friends were cracking up saying that I started typing at warp speed once the music started. Hey, it works for me!
---
I was wearing a Bass Drive radio t-shirt underneath an unbuttoned long sleeve shirt, so if you can picture it opened down the center and partially obscuring both sides of the large "Bass Drive" logo, and a friend starts staring at my chest and chuckling. I ask what's so funny and he says "Heh-heh... why're you wearing an "ass doctor" shirt?". "ass Dr", ha.
---
I use to work on the computer late into the night at a friend's house and he had a roommate who lived in the basement. I usually worked at the dining room table, which happened to be directly above the roommate's bed, with a hardwood floor between us, and on more than one occasion he'd come upstairs half-asleep and say "PLEASE stop tapping your feet on the floor". The last thing I'd ever want to do is torture him awake with that, but I'd be so into the DnB in my headphones that it was happening subconsciously.
Bassdrive ftw! That's my go-to when I really need to get shit done and focus. I used to buy DnB mix CDs (High Contrast's Fabriclive.25 is one I still put on from time to time) but once I discovered Bassdrive that was much easier than dealing with CDs.
> Brostep has one good track: Charlie Sheen's raging cokehead rant
> The Swedish House Mafia is a dingleberry clinging to the ass hair of electronic music. Seriously, what sort of horrendous ear sandpaper like One needs three god damn producers?
> PS: If you're coming here from Pitchfork, go f*ck yourself.
The dubstep section deserves a special mention in a similar way:
"You ever have one of those really sticky poos where you've pinched it off but it's clinging to your sphincter for dear life, and you don't want to get up and wipe because that would take a lot of toilet paper, so you just kinda sit there helpless, and maybe wiggle around a bit to try and shake it off?
And then after a few minutes gravity does its job and the turd finally detaches from your rectum and drops into the bowl with a satisfying ker-plunk?
I always thought Mc's were a way to keep people from recording dub plates and using them in there own mixes as most mixes from 1996 - 2001 are not listenable today. MC + crappy recording + DJ spinning at 200 bpm for some reason killed so many sets that would be awesome to listen to today.
For anyone wondering if there is any subgenre that he seems to not vehemently dislike, French House seems to have a surprisingly charitable description.
> ...every kick for just a fraction of a second, adding a new dimension of chunky French goodness.
> French House is still around because anything this addictively funky will never die. Just like Disco.
>Goa Trance is Trance music at its purest essence, where psychedelia could run wild and free unfettered from the societal norms and bland commercial anthems that corrupted other Trance scenes. Here, and only here, could the unchained spirits of rave roam as they were wont to do. And it is good.
I am struck by how empty the timeline is from 2000s onward. It might be explained in part by Ishkur's own age / detachment. It matches my own experience but I expect I am a similar age.
Is it true that there just aren't any major new genres and subcultures with music? I know people will respond with "I love new genre X" which will turn out to be a handful of bedroom djs on soundcloud. There needs to be some notability standard for a genre which IMHO is that there are multiple clubs that specialise in it and larger clubs have a regular night for it showing some general appeal. Anything else is just some micro-niche that should be categorised under an existing genre.
The internet has probably allowed for smaller niches to develop and survive. Years ago, no one would bother making new genre X music in their bedroom because no one would hear it. Now they do. So arguably your notability requirement for genres is a bit outdated and maybe is why it seems like there are no new genres or subcultures. It's possible the genres and subcultures are just smaller and less visible now.
Disclaimer, I know nothing about DnB. I'm just commenting on how it seems a lot of things have developed in recent years due to the pervasiveness of the internet.
I would never argue I'm not outdated :)... but I am sceptical of notability claims if they are not bringing people together at events or getting promoters trying to cash in. IMHO leokennis's examples of Amapiano and Afrotech which I could find as events in my city suggests it's a reasonable yardstick.
One big development in "dance music" is the music coming from Africa. For example, Amapiano, Afrotech etc. So probably there are also still more subgenres popping up in areas of electronic music I do not follow/listen to.
Therefore I think your impression that their absence "...might be explained in part by Ishkur's own age / detachment..." is correct.
Scanning my local club pages I can confirm both Amapiano and Afrotech events! I also see something called Gqom.
They are the only unfamiliar things among a sea of the old familiars: house, techno, dnb, garage, electro etc. I see a fair amount of "Dark Wave" which is not electronic and not new but not a common term back when I might have been going to gigs.
Indeed. Check out the Nyege Nyege Tapes label for instance. Also the Príncipe label, which showcases the latin equivalent of this (often cross-pollonated with African styles).
I believe it is just outdated/not-updated. Atleast in DnB scene I can tell it is missing the recent "flavour" of liquid (melodic DnB with nice, mostly female vocals, see latest Subfocus album), or Crossbreed, very hard flavour od DnB, represented for example by Counterstrike.
Liquid DnB is there classed under Liquid Funk. Probably something different mind.
Melodic female lead was always there in DnB e.g. Goldie's timeless.
> latest Subfocus album
I don't want to offend... but clicking through that... my god that is some nauseating garbage lol! The electronic aspect sounds like a typical 90s dnb video game menu background music and the vocals are the commercial dance music banality that cuts me like fingernails on a blackboard. You are allowed to call be grandad in return :)
> Counterstrike
Sounds like what I would hear at a typical dnb night back in the 90s that was on the harder side. Not sure why that counts as a new genre. Isn't it what Ishkur would call darkstep?
The Cambrian explosion of electronic music was the 90s and 00s. New offshoots are still being made (vaporwave, rominimal, drift ambient, hyperpop), but the major clades are more or less set in stone for now. The last major one to be established was dubstep.
Voices in the Net [1], a Tangerine Dream discography, has a similar early-net vibe. Looks like it hasn't been updated for a couple of years though.
For a couple of decades Tangerine Dream have been my go-to coding music - along with Eno and Harold Budd, and more recently Max Richter, for when I need something less driven.
Had no idea this existed and I'm grateful I came across this today. Clicked around a bit to see which Aphex Twin tracks were chosen — Xtal is there! Funny how typing "deadmau5" in the searchbar just returns "Who?". Reading the Info Panel for 8th Note Prog explains why that might be the case.
Loved reading through the Info Panels and the FAQs but the UI is a bit clunky to work with. Is there an official dataset? Would love to try my hand at building a different UI around it.
Readit News
I'm looking forward to AI models that can describe, classify, and recommend music. Obviously there's Shazam and things like Cyanite (https://cyanite.ai/) but hopefully there will be some good open source models too shortly.
You could imagine Ishkur's Guide V3 is constructed automatically by AI models, and places every track somewhere on the map, listing all the genres and influences, etc.
Then to refine its model, it'd have you rate some picks (old and new based on what it knows so far), and analyze how your responses fit its model. Would it get better faster for people who like a wide variety, or those with a few specialities?
The best model is/was the Pandora's Music Genome Project - but likely due to the fact that it is heavily supplemented with human input.
Given the progress across many AI applications in the past year I certainly wouldn't bet on this continuing to be true.
Ishkur's Guide to Electronic Music - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26212706 - Feb 2021 (9 comments)
Iskhur's Guide to Electronic Music - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25083516 - Nov 2020 (1 comment)
Ishkur's Guide to Electronic Music - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20744571 - Aug 2019 (71 comments)
And while we're on the topic, and because it's rare for me to get to chat about DnB with anyone... here are some fun short stories from over the years:
A friends Dad happened by when I was listening to DnB without headphones and said "THAT is NOT music... it sounds like a toilet flushing".
---
I like listening to DnB during focus-intensive work. On a road trip with friends I'd been working without music for a bit and when I finally put headphones on with some DnB my friends were cracking up saying that I started typing at warp speed once the music started. Hey, it works for me!
---
I was wearing a Bass Drive radio t-shirt underneath an unbuttoned long sleeve shirt, so if you can picture it opened down the center and partially obscuring both sides of the large "Bass Drive" logo, and a friend starts staring at my chest and chuckling. I ask what's so funny and he says "Heh-heh... why're you wearing an "ass doctor" shirt?". "ass Dr", ha.
---
I use to work on the computer late into the night at a friend's house and he had a roommate who lived in the basement. I usually worked at the dining room table, which happened to be directly above the roommate's bed, with a hardwood floor between us, and on more than one occasion he'd come upstairs half-asleep and say "PLEASE stop tapping your feet on the floor". The last thing I'd ever want to do is torture him awake with that, but I'd be so into the DnB in my headphones that it was happening subconsciously.
The funniest take on this I've ever heard is the sketch at the end of DJ Freaky Flow's mix cd from 2001: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lIcptQ2RfA
> Brostep has one good track: Charlie Sheen's raging cokehead rant
> The Swedish House Mafia is a dingleberry clinging to the ass hair of electronic music. Seriously, what sort of horrendous ear sandpaper like One needs three god damn producers?
> PS: If you're coming here from Pitchfork, go f*ck yourself.
"You ever have one of those really sticky poos where you've pinched it off but it's clinging to your sphincter for dear life, and you don't want to get up and wipe because that would take a lot of toilet paper, so you just kinda sit there helpless, and maybe wiggle around a bit to try and shake it off?
And then after a few minutes gravity does its job and the turd finally detaches from your rectum and drops into the bowl with a satisfying ker-plunk?
Well guess what: They make music like that now."
> ...every kick for just a fraction of a second, adding a new dimension of chunky French goodness.
> French House is still around because anything this addictively funky will never die. Just like Disco.
Is it true that there just aren't any major new genres and subcultures with music? I know people will respond with "I love new genre X" which will turn out to be a handful of bedroom djs on soundcloud. There needs to be some notability standard for a genre which IMHO is that there are multiple clubs that specialise in it and larger clubs have a regular night for it showing some general appeal. Anything else is just some micro-niche that should be categorised under an existing genre.
Disclaimer, I know nothing about DnB. I'm just commenting on how it seems a lot of things have developed in recent years due to the pervasiveness of the internet.
Therefore I think your impression that their absence "...might be explained in part by Ishkur's own age / detachment..." is correct.
They are the only unfamiliar things among a sea of the old familiars: house, techno, dnb, garage, electro etc. I see a fair amount of "Dark Wave" which is not electronic and not new but not a common term back when I might have been going to gigs.
Melodic female lead was always there in DnB e.g. Goldie's timeless.
> latest Subfocus album
I don't want to offend... but clicking through that... my god that is some nauseating garbage lol! The electronic aspect sounds like a typical 90s dnb video game menu background music and the vocals are the commercial dance music banality that cuts me like fingernails on a blackboard. You are allowed to call be grandad in return :)
> Counterstrike
Sounds like what I would hear at a typical dnb night back in the 90s that was on the harder side. Not sure why that counts as a new genre. Isn't it what Ishkur would call darkstep?
Let see if my kids find this as magical as I did
For a couple of decades Tangerine Dream have been my go-to coding music - along with Eno and Harold Budd, and more recently Max Richter, for when I need something less driven.
[1] https://www.voices-in-the-net.de/
Loved reading through the Info Panels and the FAQs but the UI is a bit clunky to work with. Is there an official dataset? Would love to try my hand at building a different UI around it.