Kiwi developer here, we have immigration laws that create a false scarcity of tech workers and low amount of skilled local graduates. Among the teams of developers there's usually only one or two nz born team members with the majority being on working visas or in the process of permanent residency. It may look like a good thing for locals as pay stays high but it brings down the overall efficiency of the country. Saying that we generally trail the US market on these things by 3-6 months and we've had some decent lay offs so the worst may be over for us.
NZ salaries are also pretty laughable, even if you're on $150k you can't really afford to live on your own (even an apartment is a stretch) as housing and living expenses are so high. It's only really good if you're in your early twenties and can find flatmates or live with parents and save.
As a NZ developer that a lives in his own apartment with a salary less than $150k, I disagree. Yes, it's expensive and yes, our salaries are lower than our colleagues in some other countries, but it's too much to say that you can't afford to put down a deposit on an apartment after a few years of saving.
I agree. It is not easy to hear a person whose income is triple his country's national median refer to independent living as untenable. Even if only purely from a perspective of "if even they are struggling, then... how is the average person in that country even still alive??".
And if a country has plenty of land, and food, to go around - then for scarcity to become a norm, something(s) must have their hands pretty deep in the cookie jar.
I make less than $150K, am in my late 40s, and live in Auckland. My partner and I own our apartment (well, most of it -- we still have just under $20K left on the mortgage). She works part time, and while we don't have a lavish lifestyle we have enough money for a comfortable life. So, yeah, if you're making $150K or more and can't afford to live on your own (even renting) then you have to take a closer look at where your money's going.
I don't mean to engage in whataboutism, but by saying you're above 40, you suggest you may have bought into your mortgage at the much more affordable times in the past. Did you purchase in the last few years?
Aussie here. Similar, we’re a bit higher but it’s about the same.
I will highlight one difference between the US and Oceania - our currencies are at least a third less than the USD. So $150k in NZ is probably closer to $100k and in Aus it’s $110k.
Yea, I thinking of jumping the ditch in the next year. Housing is ridiculous here in nz, until that gets fixed it's not a very attractive place to live if you're trying to build wealth
There is no city in America where a single individual cannot afford a comfortable lifestyle in a nice neighborhood on a $150k salary. is this not true in most of Europe? I feel like most of my European friends make well south of $150k and do just fine.
I don't know the details of life in NZ, but I live in a highly desirable part of Manhattan and make just north of $150k. I eat out all the time, travel often, and ultimately feel very few financial constraints (aside from not saving as much as I'd like). What in NZ is driving up costs so high that $150k can't sustain a single individual in a nice urban apartment?
Are you single? Do you have room mates? Did you buy several years ago and now have a locked in mortgage at a low rate? I think circumstances change things. I make north of $150k in California, but I'm married and have two kids. It doesn't feel like it goes that far after rent, childcare, groceries, and all your other bills like a car, insurance, utilities, etc.
Tech Immigrants outnumbering local techs happens in many countries.
I was doing a job in Australia in the 90s and I remember the ratio there being high. In my job in NZ there was also significant immigrant numbers (although tended to be immigrants from English speaking countries at that time due to NZ immigration laws).
Vertical movement in most tech companies has stalled for 25 years, and there are several reasons why.
However... in general, it is easier to transition into a more lucrative position at another firm, than try to negotiate with people/agencies that think employees can be outsourced for 20 cents to the dollar. FAANG colluded to prevent labor organization on several occasions, and political critters saw an opportunity to make a quick buck.
There is likely no real STEM shortage, but rather a shortage of people willing to work in poverty domestically. I would argue we need more politicians, CEOs, and investment bankers willing to work for just standard wage rates... think of the investor profit margins.
The probability a Division Manager was purely internally sourced approaches <0.001%... given the vast majority of Jr people are burned out... then churned out in less than 3 years. It actually was a joke tradition at Apple, where engineers tended to leave at the exact same position they started.
If you want to grow in tech, than expect to hop companies every 2 years.
In Germany, two job board owners I know reported a marked drop in job listings. There are just as many job-seekers, but fewer employers that are hiring.
All of my friends are either reporting layoffs or belt tightening at work. It's hitting recent graduates and retrained workers really hard.
On the other hand, Germany is about to dramatically lower the residence permit and citizenship requirements, as it panicks about its aging population. This might further depress the wages.
The skilled worker shortage (Fachkräftemangel) is constantly in the news, although the worker response is the same as in other Western countries: have you tried paying more? Relaxing job requirements? Training people?
Same in Finland, the employer side constantly screaming about worker shortage, but I have been in several interviews where when I presented my salary request, I could see the person grin because they thought it is too high but it was just little higher than my current... Luckily, I got a new job in Hong Kong with decent salary and lower tax rate.
They want to saturate the market with massive immigration so the salaries never rise, but when there are too many developers, they can actually push them down. If there would be real shortage, they would increase the salary.
> If there would be real shortage, they would increase the salary.
Technically, a shortage occurs when an external mechanism prevents price from rising. Think price gouging laws as once such mechanism.
Where I am from, doctors are prevented from raising their prices in an effort to give equal access to all, rich and poor alike, which would allow for a doctor shortage to transpire. But a real labour shortage outside of such unique situations would be unheard of.
> On the other hand, Germany is about to dramatically lower the residence permit and citizenship requirements, as it panicks about its aging population. This might further depress the wages.
The immigration system in Germany is peculiarly hostile, getting visas is very hard, interacting with the local bureaucracy is a nightmare, there are so many catch-22 that either you pay an agency or… God knows how they do it. If you are not an EU citizen, it may take months to complete all the paperwork even to the perfect immigrant.
Streamlining this system and lowering the requirements for a skilled visa won’t hurt anybody, it would just make the lives of some people less miserable.
Consider that Germany has an almost endless reservoir of potential immigrants in southern Europe (and to some extent in Turkey), it has been there for the past decades and salaries keep going up.
If you couldn't afford a house before, you defiantly can't at these rates, and if you can't afford a house now, you definitely won't after the immigration boom.
As someone who graduated as a SWE from an NZ university; around 50% of my cohort moved over to Australia and around 20-30% somewhere else; I can count the number of friends I have left in the country on one hand (four year degree). NZ salaries are actually laughable compared to overseas where you're earning at least 25% more for the same work and a probably lower cost of living
As a Kiwi still living here I didn't feel like I was getting a fair deal until I started working remotely for a US company paying AU rates.
Making the move from an NZ employer to (essentially) an AU employer got me a ~40% pay rise.
I'm now afraid I've priced my self out of the NZ market and will have a rude landing if I'm forced back into the NZ market (you never know, things happen).
But it is frankly ridiculous how far NZ employers have their heads in the clouds. If remote work stays around and more US companies don't mind a few hours overlap with the West Coast timezone to get access to a native English speaking, Western culture, talent pool... well, I think those NZ employers will start banging the immigration drum a lot harder.
1. It’s ProPublica - “an independent, nonprofit newsroom that produces investigative journalism in the public interest.” Such a job is likely to appeal to someone who, despite the salary, is looking to make a wide social impact.
2. the job also states:
> This is a good faith estimate of what we expect to pay for this position. The final salary figure will take into account a person’s experience, accomplishment and location. ProPublica is committed to paying its staff equitably, and these ranges should not be considered career salary limits or caps.
3. It is not in NZ:
> This job is full time and includes benefits. ProPublica is headquartered in New York, but we have offices across the country and will consider remote applicants.
As I've so fond of pointing out on HN "Principal" means two different things depending on the culture of the company. In SV/BigTech "Principal" is a step above Staff. In many other companies, however, it just means "non-junior employee"; these are the same companies that also have titles like "Lead Architect" and "Systems Administrator". Without context "Principal" is meaningless.
I wouldn't compare that to a position with a similar title at a tech company.
It's not uncommon for tech roles on non-tech/IT teams to have some title inflation so they can match compensation better based on the pay-scale of their business unit.
There's an excess of frauds. Large amounts of money will obviously attract them.
JFC, if you have "an idea for an app, bro", but you can't build the product, and you can't raise the honest VC necessary to build or acquire the team that builds the product, YOU DON'T HAVE A PRODUCT.
I don't know how these people get to go around without being challenged on the obvious fact that, for there to be seniors, there has to be someone training juniors. The level of hypocrisy and greed are beyond words, and the fact that every two-bit podcaster and reporter doesn't call these people out loudly and repeatedly is worse.
Here in Finland they are screaming WORKER SHORTAGE too, but when you talk about salary, suddenly there is no shortage. It's interesting view of the market that when there is a shortage, they should be able to import more and more workers from the outside so they don't have to increase the salaries, but when there is less demand, the salaries should also go down. By this logic they should never increase
This is a lump of labor fallacy - importing workers increases your salary because immigrants, being prime-age consumers with complementary skills to the natives, increase labor demand more than supply.
(They don't have complementary skills to themselves, so they're more likely to suppress wages of other immigrants - so you could say the rational thing would be for them to shut each other out and you to encourage it.)
Skills shortage means "We could make so much more money if skilled labor was cheaper. Our countrymen are so greedy. Can we please undercut them by importing more desperate and compliant people? Can we get some taxpayer spending to push more young people into this field with the promise of low pay and low job security by claiming there is a shortage? Can you tell them that they will be in high demand and well-respected?"
PhDs get paid nothing and yet there's been a "shortage" for half a century.
This is happening in Germany at the moment. The government will dramatically lower the work immigration requirements to compensate for a labour shortage and find new tax payers at a discount.
As a work immigrant myself I can't complain, but it's hard to ignore the cold calculation behind it. We're meant to be cheap labour that shows up pre-trained, and leaves before they get old.
You are basically meant to prop up the pension ponzi-scheme because they are running out of payers and the amount the boomers paid was quite little relative to now
Literally every "shortage" regarding any good in the world follows the same pattern you described which is "well it is a just a shortage at this low of a price. If price increases then there wouldn't be a shortage!"
So you describing literally every shortage ever for any good, but doing it in this weird moralizing way isnt particularly useful.
There are no 50-plus-year skill shortages in market economies. The point is that there is lying going on. Which is not surprising, but that doesn't mean it's not the primary problem or that it somehow goes without saying. It needs to be said early and often.
If you redefine shortage to mean literally anything that people wish was cheaper, then it becomes entirely detached from reality and economics. But if you think it's the appropriate definition, then let's make sure everyone is on the same page. We don't want half the population thinking that shortage means something acute, negative, and resolvable.
As a tech worker in NZ, the headline is absolutely right (I just skimmed the article). It's weird to see companies offering the same rates as six years ago, and crazy that research institutions offer a junior salary for a senior job.
And don't get me started on mid-level developers looking at spending 50% of their net earnings on paying even a small mortgage, even with the small price drop happening right now.
> The survey was conducted in January and February 2023.
As an NZ based CTO - I feel things have slowed quite a bit since the start of the year. That said, the market is more buoyant than the US based on comments from others here. I think things will pick up in the new year again.
Readit News
NZ salaries are also pretty laughable, even if you're on $150k you can't really afford to live on your own (even an apartment is a stretch) as housing and living expenses are so high. It's only really good if you're in your early twenties and can find flatmates or live with parents and save.
And if a country has plenty of land, and food, to go around - then for scarcity to become a norm, something(s) must have their hands pretty deep in the cookie jar.
I will highlight one difference between the US and Oceania - our currencies are at least a third less than the USD. So $150k in NZ is probably closer to $100k and in Aus it’s $110k.
That's pretty standard outside the USA too.
(And it's not true in the US, only some coastal regions.)
Dead Comment
I was doing a job in Australia in the 90s and I remember the ratio there being high. In my job in NZ there was also significant immigrant numbers (although tended to be immigrants from English speaking countries at that time due to NZ immigration laws).
However... in general, it is easier to transition into a more lucrative position at another firm, than try to negotiate with people/agencies that think employees can be outsourced for 20 cents to the dollar. FAANG colluded to prevent labor organization on several occasions, and political critters saw an opportunity to make a quick buck.
There is likely no real STEM shortage, but rather a shortage of people willing to work in poverty domestically. I would argue we need more politicians, CEOs, and investment bankers willing to work for just standard wage rates... think of the investor profit margins.
Best of luck, =)
You know there are plenty of high level engineers under 45 so I'm not sure how you see a stalled vertical movement. 25 years ago was 1998.
If you want to grow in tech, than expect to hop companies every 2 years.
Good luck, =)
All of my friends are either reporting layoffs or belt tightening at work. It's hitting recent graduates and retrained workers really hard.
On the other hand, Germany is about to dramatically lower the residence permit and citizenship requirements, as it panicks about its aging population. This might further depress the wages.
The skilled worker shortage (Fachkräftemangel) is constantly in the news, although the worker response is the same as in other Western countries: have you tried paying more? Relaxing job requirements? Training people?
They want to saturate the market with massive immigration so the salaries never rise, but when there are too many developers, they can actually push them down. If there would be real shortage, they would increase the salary.
Technically, a shortage occurs when an external mechanism prevents price from rising. Think price gouging laws as once such mechanism.
Where I am from, doctors are prevented from raising their prices in an effort to give equal access to all, rich and poor alike, which would allow for a doctor shortage to transpire. But a real labour shortage outside of such unique situations would be unheard of.
The immigration system in Germany is peculiarly hostile, getting visas is very hard, interacting with the local bureaucracy is a nightmare, there are so many catch-22 that either you pay an agency or… God knows how they do it. If you are not an EU citizen, it may take months to complete all the paperwork even to the perfect immigrant.
Streamlining this system and lowering the requirements for a skilled visa won’t hurt anybody, it would just make the lives of some people less miserable.
Consider that Germany has an almost endless reservoir of potential immigrants in southern Europe (and to some extent in Turkey), it has been there for the past decades and salaries keep going up.
Compared to US visas, it's a walk in the park.
>Streamlining this system and lowering the requirements for a skilled visa won’t hurt anybody
It will defiantly hurt the housing market because Germany doesn't build enough.
Time to buy a house if you can afford it. Immigration of skilled workers drives house prices up!
It's meant to lower growth and investment.
Making the move from an NZ employer to (essentially) an AU employer got me a ~40% pay rise.
I'm now afraid I've priced my self out of the NZ market and will have a rude landing if I'm forced back into the NZ market (you never know, things happen).
But it is frankly ridiculous how far NZ employers have their heads in the clouds. If remote work stays around and more US companies don't mind a few hours overlap with the West Coast timezone to get access to a native English speaking, Western culture, talent pool... well, I think those NZ employers will start banging the immigration drum a lot harder.
It's really true. We see a lot of New Zealanders applying for jobs in Australia and they are often good candidates.
I still love NZ but to keep progressing in my career I felt it was really helpful to be able to access a bigger market.
do you know if there is big influx of IT immigrants in NZ?
1. It’s ProPublica - “an independent, nonprofit newsroom that produces investigative journalism in the public interest.” Such a job is likely to appeal to someone who, despite the salary, is looking to make a wide social impact.
2. the job also states:
> This is a good faith estimate of what we expect to pay for this position. The final salary figure will take into account a person’s experience, accomplishment and location. ProPublica is committed to paying its staff equitably, and these ranges should not be considered career salary limits or caps.
3. It is not in NZ:
> This job is full time and includes benefits. ProPublica is headquartered in New York, but we have offices across the country and will consider remote applicants.
It sounds like they want someone 35+ years old, with top-tier skills, who doesn't prioritize a good night's sleep?
Which is actually more than I was earning as a lead at a recent job in Canada
It might be off on the high end by $20K
It's not uncommon for tech roles on non-tech/IT teams to have some title inflation so they can match compensation better based on the pay-scale of their business unit.
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JFC, if you have "an idea for an app, bro", but you can't build the product, and you can't raise the honest VC necessary to build or acquire the team that builds the product, YOU DON'T HAVE A PRODUCT.
I don't know how these people get to go around without being challenged on the obvious fact that, for there to be seniors, there has to be someone training juniors. The level of hypocrisy and greed are beyond words, and the fact that every two-bit podcaster and reporter doesn't call these people out loudly and repeatedly is worse.
(They don't have complementary skills to themselves, so they're more likely to suppress wages of other immigrants - so you could say the rational thing would be for them to shut each other out and you to encourage it.)
PhDs get paid nothing and yet there's been a "shortage" for half a century.
As a work immigrant myself I can't complain, but it's hard to ignore the cold calculation behind it. We're meant to be cheap labour that shows up pre-trained, and leaves before they get old.
Literally every "shortage" regarding any good in the world follows the same pattern you described which is "well it is a just a shortage at this low of a price. If price increases then there wouldn't be a shortage!"
So you describing literally every shortage ever for any good, but doing it in this weird moralizing way isnt particularly useful.
If you redefine shortage to mean literally anything that people wish was cheaper, then it becomes entirely detached from reality and economics. But if you think it's the appropriate definition, then let's make sure everyone is on the same page. We don't want half the population thinking that shortage means something acute, negative, and resolvable.
And don't get me started on mid-level developers looking at spending 50% of their net earnings on paying even a small mortgage, even with the small price drop happening right now.
As an NZ based CTO - I feel things have slowed quite a bit since the start of the year. That said, the market is more buoyant than the US based on comments from others here. I think things will pick up in the new year again.