The tone and level of entitlement of some comments is astonishing. Thunderbird is a free and open source tool, used by many (including me). The least we can do is to be a little nicer.
I love thunderbird but I don't understand their update schedules.
I just now got an update (thought it would be to 115) but it's to 102 [1].
In the release notes of 102 it says it was made public only 5 days ago (and they say 115 is coming soon). And seemingly it can't update to 115? Am I missing something here?
The janky versioning is because Thunderbird releases are tied to ESR (extended-support release) versions of Firefox.
- "Thunderbird Project version numbers for releases match to Mozilla Firefox ESR numbers. Thunderbird also provides consecutive betas between the ESR numbers, for example 92-101, which match to Firefox (non-ESR) beta numbers. Future Thunderbird (ESR) releases upcoming are 115, 127, etc."
That threw me for a loop. I went to download 115 and got 102.
I've mostly stuck with webmail (Fastmail for personal, Gmail for work) but would love to get back to a local client. So I'm willing to give the new Thunderbird a shot, but it's perplexing when they advertise 115 and give me 102 and it's really unclear how to get the nifty stuff they're advertising.
As the maintainer of CoreJS (Denis Pushkarev) said:
Maintainers are the unsung heroes of the software world, pouring their hearts into creating vast amounts of value that often goes unappreciated. These unsung heroes perform critical work that enables all of modern technology to function – this is not an exaggeration. These tireless individuals dedicate themselves to writing new features, fixing bugs, answering user inquiries, improving documentation, and developing innovative new software, yet they receive almost no recognition for their efforts.
They spent 1000 credits on an iDevice with basic, inflexible, proprietary software that "looks good" and expect flexible, powerful, portable, free and open source software to look the same too.
I was prepared for disappointment, given the sad direction most desktop applications have been heading in the past decade. But admittedly, it looks pretty dang good. Looking forward to giving it a test drive!
It hit me that they may be listening to their users more than most desktop app developers when I scrolled to the section about display density. The overwhelming majority of modern desktop apps have exploded the use of white-space and grossly reduced the information density of applications. Mind you, I suspect I will personally want an even more dense setting than their current densest option. But having density settings demonstrated front and center gives me hope.
I'm also concerned that I will still want a traditional three-pane split view (folders at left, message list at top-right, message text at bottom-right). Many desktop users do not run their mail client fully maximized, so a horizontally-biased window size should not be assumed. I run Thunderbird on the left half of a single monitor, meaning it's taller than it is wide. A three-column view will probably not use that space well.
I'm guessing this is not an Electron app. If I am right, that alone deserves praise.
Yes, I have a 3:2 lappy and a second monitor in portrait. Forced widescreen layouts are a no-go here. Thankfully the article implies new options, rather than "Dieter from Shprockets" knows best.
Putting the search bar front-and-center in both the application and this announcement, I hope the backend implementation is now able to keep up?
The one use case I switch to my mail provider's webmail UI for is search. I mentally sigh a little bit each time I realise I have to search through my email. Thunderbird's search has been among the worst I have ever come across, sadly. Functional search would be a killer feature. As it's running locally, heck, give me regex. Trivial to implement and would be a huge improvement already.
Yeah. It's been terrible forever. Either returning far too much, far too little, or both.
I've often just resorted to grep on an export of mail directories to find that one email.
I even once imported the mails (ugly bash and Ruby hacks) in meilisearch to actually find stuff.
It surprises me that it's possible to have a search experience that's worse than manually grepping through directories.
I have always wondered this. When a site like "MAterial for Mkdocs" can implement such a featureful search (with autocomplete, spellcorrect and such) in a browser for a website, how could it be this hard for a desktop application with several orders of magnitude of resources at its disposal?
As a relatively new TB user, I thought it was me who was "holding it wrong" lol. Searching for my employer's name and it only returning my career portal applications but not actually their emails (that were from their domain, with their name appearing atleast twice in text) was baffling.
I'm very hopeful about this new version. I can already see one of my U/X gripes fixed in the screenshot.
The only issue I have with TB search is the setting for the results presentation: why is there not a preferences option to set if the results show as list or in the current default 'verbose' view?
switching to list view manually seems so inefficient
This looks good! It has not reached my distribution yet, I hope this refreshed UI will be more convenient than the current one (which has done its job for the past 20 years but has some quirks like not having a straightforward way to follow a mail thread to my knowledge - well, it has but all the mails need to be in the same folder but sent mails are in the sent folder and received mails are in the received messages folder)
Just jumping in to say I'm also incredibly happy to see this change (and the other expected improvements).
Thunderbird currently looks dated, and I'm glad to see it brought into the 2020s.
Sometimes current users can be dismissive of UI changes, so it's good to see fellow users who are happy. Moreover, let's not forget the new users, who were previously put off by the dated UI.
I guess I'll be that dismissive current user. I don't like random UI changes in a tool I use as frequently as a mail client. The new icons don't look too bad, even if I dislike their flat nature.
I don't think TB looks dated. It looks functional. Which is exactly what I want from a mail client. If I want something that looks modern but is dysfunctional, I'll just switch to Outlook.
> all the mails need to be in the same folder but sent mails are in the sent folder and received mails are in the received messages folder)
There is a simple setting somewhere that allows you to have all sent emails be saved in the Inbox. Right now I'm not where I can look up the exact setting for this, but I'm sure you can find it without looking too long. I've been using it this way forever, all my threads are complete and easy to follow.
FYI, Thunderbird 115 is getting released tomorrow (July 11). Right now, if you visit the Thunderbird website [1] or try to look for updates within the application, you won't find this release version available (you can always get the beta release from the website).
I would advise against installing the beta for anyone considering it. I was in the beta for 2 years (mostly because it's quite challenging to get out of the beta), and the quality of the beta releases leaves a lot to be desired.
Aaaah. So that's why I wasn't finding anything, I thought I was going crazy. That landing page seems to hint that it's currently available ("Upgrade to version 115 and experience the future of Thunderbird!").
I’ve been using the beta for some weeks, and it’s fantastic. snappy fast, and makes me feel in control.
I’m not using (and probably never will) any of the non-email features like the calendar, or the chat. But they are relatively hidden away, so they don’t bother me.
Calendar in the mail client is very useful since invitations are sent by mail. You click accept, the recipient knows you did and the event is added to your calendar.
But indeed if you don't use it it does not get in the way, which is perfect.
I also receive pdfs via email, but I don’t want a pdf reader in my email client.
It’s perfectly feasible to write an email client that hands off received events to a calendar application and receives the response to send back. It’s all icalendar components under the hood anyway.
Putting everything together in a single monolithic program that handles email, calendar and contacts is a design choice, not a technical requirement.
And yes, I do use the workflow that your descube receiving and sending calendar events. But Thunderbird’s design is annoying because it’s a all or nothing situation: you can’t just use it as an email client and use some other calendar application.
did they fix the problem where the calendar account must be the same as the email account? My email is on zimbra but since the zimbra calendar is isolated, I use a google calendar from another email account because I can use it with reclaim.ai, share calendars and use it on my phone.
I read mail first on my phone with K9 (the old UI) a few times per day and accept invitations there to put them on my phone, which is always with me. Then I download mail with Thunderbird a few times per week. I use my domain providers POP3 servers. Yes, they bundle a mailbox with each domain. It's also IMAP and webmail but POP3 is better for my use case.
I hate that "modern" nowadays equals "looks like VS code". Give me a menu and a toolbar with clearly associated keyboard shortcuts, I don't need a second dock (or even a first, i'm not on Mac). Tabletified webuis are inane for power users.
As a designer + developer, it always frustrates me to see a design not translated into code well. If this is built using css, there really aren't any excuses for not making this look as slick as the visuals. Especially when the design doesn't appear to contain anything which looks especially difficult to recreate.
It's difficult to overemphasise how much this kind of thing gives users of your software confidence. The common assumption is, if it looks good, it works well (and the opposite).
Product Manager here. The answer is because we are tied to the ESR release cycle we have to release at a certain time (we are working on changing this). So we're shipping all the work that is done and stable. There is still work to be done to the front-end and as much as people want to trivialize it, it's not so simple. To make the changes we did, we had to rewrite a very complicated front-end with some code that has been there for 20 years and had entire systems built upon it. We are going to get to what the mockup showed. But we're going to build it right, and that means rewriting large pieces of our codebase. We'll ship the remaining stuff when they are ready.
Designer mockups and the actual end result don't always end up being the exact same for various reasons. Nothing a little CSS won't change, from what I can tell the biggest difference is the contrast on the panel edges and the background on the read/unread/selected messages.
The road map does state Q4 2022 as a target so I imagine the work has just taken too much time already and the version 115 deadline wasn't made.
If the UI platform you're using supports themes, this can usually be fixed with that. Provide one default theme that looks perfectly polished, and another more compact one for power users.
Yeah, agree with this. The design was miles ahead of what has actually been shipped. It's a shame, I feel like it could've done with more time spent on development to translate the designer's vision into code. They haven't even tried to port over the shadows on the messages (and have instead gone with an ugly thick border), the left sidebar has a different background colour to what was in the design, they're not using the shorter date/time formats, it generally feels much more cramped and less polished than the design. Even the selected folders are styled in an inferior way (using a de-saturated grey background instead of the blue-tinted light background and left border).
I don't want to take away from the work that has been done here, but like .. just copy the design? You can take screenshots and compare to the design until it matches. It looked amazing, I feel bad for the designer because their vision has really been lost in what's been implemented.
Which is not that much of a problem for Thunderbird, which is released for Windows, Mac OS X and Linux, but not IOS. And the Android version is actually K9.
I don't think it's a world apart. But the borders are darker in now than in the mockup, and the message card view is way denser. But I'm sure they'll refine these things.
Wonder what the hard-drive footprint this takes now, my version; 60.9.1(32-bit) takes 126MB and i consider that bloated for what it is. At the Thunderbird 60.9 release mark; Pegasus footprint was 30MB, Opera Mail was 38MB, Sylpheed was 28MB, even the Bat was only 50MB.
I run Thunderbird portable from a data pen, which is why this metric is important to me (i realize it won't be for the majority of users).
Edit; Okay i know i could buy a bigger data pen, but i also do weekly backups to the cloud and am limited to 7mbps upload, 2g takes 40 minutes, so every bit i can shave off helps. But i want to emphasize i realize it won't be important for the majority of users
> Edit; Okay i know i could buy a bigger data pen, but i also do weekly backups to the cloud and am limited to 7mbps upload, 2g takes 40 minutes, so every bit i can shave off helps. But i want to emphasize i realize it won't be important for the majority of users
Curious here: so you continuously upload your Thunderbird executable to the cloud? Why? Most upload+sync solutions worth their salt (FreeFileSync, Syncthing) have competent diffing algorithms that don't upload the same file twice.
Over the years i have run into OS problems that require format-reinstall, which used to take days to get normality back. So i moved everything i could to portable software on a USB pen drive, browser, email, graphics, 3d, text editors, PIMs, i even have xampp server mostly running portable. All saving data locally where possible, encrypted.. then i just back up everything periodically and i know my entire work-flow can continue on a new OS, or even a different PC with little interruption.
I have looked into Sync software, and i use this for local backups, but I'd only trust the cloud with an encrypted file container, which i have to re-upload each time.
I'm glad they aren't spending dev cycles trying to optimize on-disk footprint. 2TB SSD go for $100 and 4Tb go for $200. Nobody installs so many different software that the software itself, even at 200MB, could take up any significant percent of the storage.
Readit News
I just now got an update (thought it would be to 115) but it's to 102 [1].
In the release notes of 102 it says it was made public only 5 days ago (and they say 115 is coming soon). And seemingly it can't update to 115? Am I missing something here?
[1] https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/thunderbird/102.13.0/relea...
[edit] okay it seems 115 is not yet released as https://www.thunderbird.net/ still links to 102. But the Beta links to 116 (https://www.thunderbird.net/de/download/beta/) so I guess they are still moving things around
- "Thunderbird Project version numbers for releases match to Mozilla Firefox ESR numbers. Thunderbird also provides consecutive betas between the ESR numbers, for example 92-101, which match to Firefox (non-ESR) beta numbers. Future Thunderbird (ESR) releases upcoming are 115, 127, etc."
https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird:Home#Releases
I've mostly stuck with webmail (Fastmail for personal, Gmail for work) but would love to get back to a local client. So I'm willing to give the new Thunderbird a shot, but it's perplexing when they advertise 115 and give me 102 and it's really unclear how to get the nifty stuff they're advertising.
102.x has been out for a while.
When you receive an update to it depends on your distro or whether you have it installed as a Snap or Flatpak, etc.
Maintainers are the unsung heroes of the software world, pouring their hearts into creating vast amounts of value that often goes unappreciated. These unsung heroes perform critical work that enables all of modern technology to function – this is not an exaggeration. These tireless individuals dedicate themselves to writing new features, fixing bugs, answering user inquiries, improving documentation, and developing innovative new software, yet they receive almost no recognition for their efforts.
FOSS is only good because of competition and entitlement.
Dead Comment
It hit me that they may be listening to their users more than most desktop app developers when I scrolled to the section about display density. The overwhelming majority of modern desktop apps have exploded the use of white-space and grossly reduced the information density of applications. Mind you, I suspect I will personally want an even more dense setting than their current densest option. But having density settings demonstrated front and center gives me hope.
I'm also concerned that I will still want a traditional three-pane split view (folders at left, message list at top-right, message text at bottom-right). Many desktop users do not run their mail client fully maximized, so a horizontally-biased window size should not be assumed. I run Thunderbird on the left half of a single monitor, meaning it's taller than it is wide. A three-column view will probably not use that space well.
I'm guessing this is not an Electron app. If I am right, that alone deserves praise.
In sum, I am now cautiously optimistic!
Yes, I have a 3:2 lappy and a second monitor in portrait. Forced widescreen layouts are a no-go here. Thankfully the article implies new options, rather than "Dieter from Shprockets" knows best.
Thunderbird is, and has always been, essentially a Firefox distribution which implements an MUA instead of a web browser.
The one use case I switch to my mail provider's webmail UI for is search. I mentally sigh a little bit each time I realise I have to search through my email. Thunderbird's search has been among the worst I have ever come across, sadly. Functional search would be a killer feature. As it's running locally, heck, give me regex. Trivial to implement and would be a huge improvement already.
I've often just resorted to grep on an export of mail directories to find that one email. I even once imported the mails (ugly bash and Ruby hacks) in meilisearch to actually find stuff.
It surprises me that it's possible to have a search experience that's worse than manually grepping through directories.
I use “notmuch” for email and it can index over two decades of emails in seconds. Search is then instantaneous.
TBH, thunderbird could just use notmuch under the hood.
I'm very hopeful about this new version. I can already see one of my U/X gripes fixed in the screenshot.
switching to list view manually seems so inefficient
Thunderbird currently looks dated, and I'm glad to see it brought into the 2020s.
Sometimes current users can be dismissive of UI changes, so it's good to see fellow users who are happy. Moreover, let's not forget the new users, who were previously put off by the dated UI.
I don't think TB looks dated. It looks functional. Which is exactly what I want from a mail client. If I want something that looks modern but is dysfunctional, I'll just switch to Outlook.
There is a simple setting somewhere that allows you to have all sent emails be saved in the Inbox. Right now I'm not where I can look up the exact setting for this, but I'm sure you can find it without looking too long. I've been using it this way forever, all my threads are complete and easy to follow.
[1]: https://www.thunderbird.net/
I’m not using (and probably never will) any of the non-email features like the calendar, or the chat. But they are relatively hidden away, so they don’t bother me.
But indeed if you don't use it it does not get in the way, which is perfect.
It’s perfectly feasible to write an email client that hands off received events to a calendar application and receives the response to send back. It’s all icalendar components under the hood anyway.
Putting everything together in a single monolithic program that handles email, calendar and contacts is a design choice, not a technical requirement.
And yes, I do use the workflow that your descube receiving and sending calendar events. But Thunderbird’s design is annoying because it’s a all or nothing situation: you can’t just use it as an email client and use some other calendar application.
[0]: https://developer.thunderbird.net/planning/roadmap
It's difficult to overemphasise how much this kind of thing gives users of your software confidence. The common assumption is, if it looks good, it works well (and the opposite).
Here's what it looked like last month: https://web.archive.org/web/20230614035125/https://developer...
Totally agreed, I was so excited when I saw these mockups and I hate to be negative but the shipped changes so far are much less exciting.
The road map does state Q4 2022 as a target so I imagine the work has just taken too much time already and the version 115 deadline wasn't made.
I don't want to take away from the work that has been done here, but like .. just copy the design? You can take screenshots and compare to the design until it matches. It looked amazing, I feel bad for the designer because their vision has really been lost in what's been implemented.
I run Thunderbird portable from a data pen, which is why this metric is important to me (i realize it won't be for the majority of users).
Edit; Okay i know i could buy a bigger data pen, but i also do weekly backups to the cloud and am limited to 7mbps upload, 2g takes 40 minutes, so every bit i can shave off helps. But i want to emphasize i realize it won't be important for the majority of users
Curious here: so you continuously upload your Thunderbird executable to the cloud? Why? Most upload+sync solutions worth their salt (FreeFileSync, Syncthing) have competent diffing algorithms that don't upload the same file twice.
I have looked into Sync software, and i use this for local backups, but I'd only trust the cloud with an encrypted file container, which i have to re-upload each time.
This isn't true, but I agree that it shouldn't be high priority for a resource-constrained team.
Deleted Comment
The problem with E-Mail is always <mso> html.