Is there an Android phone available that comes without any pre-installed bloatware, offers long-term support, and ensures access to the latest Android versions?
The reason you don't see long term support on Android is because of Qualcomm. Qualcomm wants manufacturers to build on new chips, so they deprecate older chips and stop support. Most manufacturers don't want to hire kernel and hardware devs.
Samsung can pull off longer support because of Exynos and they have a lot of inhouse expertise to extend support on old Qualcomm chips.
It's all money. They don't want you keeping a phone for 5 years.
Apple can do it because they lock you into their walled garden where they can double and triple dip on getting your money.
It's all money. They don't want you keeping a phone for 5 years.
Yes.
Hardware vendors love Open Source. It essentially cedes all control of the market to them.
They spend minimal time/money/effort on software development and updates because surprise, surprise --- it doesn't produce profits, it consumes them. Hardware is where they make all their money.
The only realistic way to get long term software support on Android is from Open Source. This means installing a replacement, 3rd party Open Source ROM. This is the first thing I do when I buy a new phone --- and I won't buy a phone that doesn't have good 3rd party support.
I have a Moto G4 Play from 2016 that gets regular software updates running e/OS. The last update was May 14th. This is my backup phone (I have a backup for everything that is considered "essential").
My primary phone is a Moto One 5G Ace (2021) which also has excellent support from e/OS and it's currently cheap as dirt considering the hardware specs. Only $129 from Amazon with 6GB RAM, 128GB storage, Snapdragon 765 processor, 2 day battery and microSD expansion.
If I accidentally leave it in an Uber or drop it in a toilet, it's sad but no big deal. I just switch to the backup until the replacement arrives. Try that with your $1000 iPhone.
> The only realistic way to get long term software support on Android is from Open Source. This means installing a replacement, 3rd party Open Source ROM.
What ROM do you use and what level of support does it provide? I was interested in third-party ROMs until I read this part of the GrapheneOS FAQ[1]:
> GrapheneOS can only fully provide security updates to a device provided that the OEM is releasing them. When an OEM is no longer providing security updates, GrapheneOS aims to provide harm reduction releases for devices which only have a minimum of 3 years support. [...] Harm reduction releases do not have complete security patches because it's not possible to provide full security updates for the device without OEM support and they are intended to buy users some limited time to migrate to a supported device.
So, what exactly do people mean when they claim that third-party ROMs provide "long-term" support? Do they just allow older phones to run newer versions of Android, albeit without full security updates?
How's the camera? For me, the camera is more important than anything else on a phone, and thus far I've been stuck with Pixels because, despite the shorter support period (and absolutely mind-bogglingly bad customer service), that software does amazing things with old camera hardware .
> The only realistic way to get long term software support on Android is from Open Source.
Or by laws and regulations.
I hope the EU will do something practical in this area, since it seems to be the only entity capable of pushing some useful changes.
Example: the digital markets act, which will force companies like apple to allow for side loading of apps. No us entity even attempted at anything similar as far as i know.
I've the same phone, and stock it is pretty bloat-free. Main complaint is the charging; no wireless and the USB-C is not secure and will pop out in most orientations.
I'm seconding the Pixels - they're also pretty much the only phones that allow you to upload your own signing keys, so you can run Google-free GrapheneOS with secure boot enabled.
GrapheneOS stops supporting phones when Google stops releasing new firmware for them for security reasons, so you aren’t going to get longer term support from it.
I have been nominated seven straight years for hacker news reader with the least knowledge of security, so I’m embarrassed to ask: what keys would one want to sign and why?
>Samsung can do it because they're smart, but Apple does it because they're evil?
Nobody said Apple are doing it because they're are evil, calm down.
Your parent said Apple can afford to give you longer support because they not only make money when they sell you the phone HW, they also keep making money from your iCloud, iTunes and every other third party subscription or SW you buy on Apple App store. Basically, they double dip and monetize you over the entire period of you owning the device. That's exactly what your parent said. Apple's walled garden affords them enough revenue to keep funding SW updates for your old Apple devices which Android makers can't do.
All the other Android makers, apart from Google, don't make any other money after they sell you the phone HW, since Google is the one earning 30% off Playstore sales, not Samsung, or the others HW makers. Therefore they can't afford to pay teams of SW devs to keep pushing you SW updated for your old phone, so many years after you stopped giving them money, especially since they depend on Quallcomm and other semi vendors giving them up to date drivers, which they won't do for free since semi makers also want to sell newer chips rather than supporting older ones for free.
Google could do like Apple in theory, since they own the whole ecosystem stack apart from the SoC and they do have the cash for it, but they don't want to do it because Google sucks at maintaining anything "old" long-term, especially HW, so they keep doing what Google does best and focus on the new shiny while sunsetting the older shinys.
It's ironic that Samsung offers longer Andorid updates for their flagships S-series, than Google themselves do for the Pixels. That says everying about Google.
> Apple can do it because they lock you into their walled garden where they can double and triple dip on getting your money.
Nonsense.
It’s because they have all the expertise in-house anyway, they get extremely good terms due to their weight and negotiation, and they figure if you don’t change phone now you might do so next year and they’ll get your money anyway. There’s no brand loyalty on the Android side, and fostering it seems impossible (even brand recognition efforts don’t seem to do much).
On what is based your claim that it is impossible to foster brand loyalty on Android side?
Maybe there is a reason that there is no brand loyalty on Android side, a reason that maybe those brands created themselves after seeking instant profits above anything else. Not one android phone manufacturer tried to cultivate long term relations with their customers for any reasonable amount of time. A lot of customers tried variety of android phones exactly for that reason, to find a brand that would not let you down and yet very quicly all promises were broken.
Also even if you don’t buy a new iPhone now, i.e. you keep using your old iPhone, they still benefit if you continue to buy apps (and buy in-app purchases), if you continue to buy from iTunes just for the convenience, or subscribe to Apple Music.
This incentivises them to support all their phones as long as technologically possible.
Other phone manufacturers have the opposite incentive, they want you to buy a new phone ASAP, since they earn nothing if you don’t buy a new phone.
From an e-waste perspective, Apple’s model is definitely better.
The reason you don't see long term support on Android is the same reason Linux failed in the desktop: the Linux kernel developers want everything mainlined and are not interested in keeping a stable kernel API for drivers, but in the real world, drivers are closed source.
That is not why Linux "failed"(1). It is because essential software for the average PC user like MS Office and the Adobe suite is not available. For games the situation has quite improved thanks to Valve.
(1) Linux didn't fail, the desktop is already a joy to use imho. It is just waiting till it reaches critical mass, then the Year of the Linux Desktop will be nigh.
Oh right, it's those open source kernel guys. Has nothing to do with incentives to sell phones being aligned with business/profit (i.e. avoiding a phone to be usable well across the 5+ years mark).
I sure miss that "real world" with its blue screens of death from unmaintained binary drivers thrown over the wall by lowest bidders, running with kernel privileges doing who-knows-what behind the scenes. I shudder to think about what that has devolved to today, with the widespread prevalence of shameless user surveillance and all. Meanwhile in the free world, hardware is well documented.
And that’s a problem that needs fixed. Out of any piece of software, the one that connects my hardware to my OS is probably one of the most important.
Although I find it dubious this alone is why Linux historically has failed at desktop. It certainly sucks to deal with, but at least people attempted to use Linux. Personally I would argue that people’s innate fear of change is the bigger problem, in my experience.
I really wish there were more options than the Pixel. Ever since they removed the headphone jack it became obvious that there needs to be more device diversity in the longer-supported space.
> Most manufacturers don't want to hire kernel and hardware devs.
I don't think this is particularly relevant. IIRC Qualcomm hardware support includes a handful of binary blobs with restrictive licenses. So if there is a vulnerability in one of those OEMs can't fix it without Qualcomm's support. So it is impossible to promise longer support than Qualcomm will provide. In practice they may be able to support the device longer if they can work around security issues from outside the blob or if no security issues are found, but they can't guarantee it (and without a guarantee there is also less incentive to actually do it).
We are finally seeing Apple, Google and Samsung creating their own SOC with longer software support, hopefully that is enough to disrupt Qualcomm's shitty practices here.
> The reason you don't see long term support on Android is because of Qualcomm. Qualcomm wants manufacturers to build on new chips
Apple and Google make money off you for as long as you use your phone. Qualcomm only makes money when you buy it. Thus, Qualcomm has little incentive to maintain old chips for long. Not because they are evil, that would be another conversation, but because they only make money off newly sold phones.
Qualcomm actually started offering LTS (long-term support) BSP (board support packages) to device manufacturers for a fee. This is why some vendors like Samsung and Microsoft started providing updates for phones with older SoCs for longer than usual: they're paying the additional per-product license fee for being allowed to ship updated firmware.
I'm optimistic that "what it could have been" is what it will eventually be. Originally there was just Apple, and their lock-in driven business model. Competitors could emulate them and still get away with it for a while, but it will get commoditized to the same level PCs are at some point.
notably the pixel has moved off qualcomm to google silicon and now has 5+ years of support.
if you want the _pure_ android experience, aosp support for pixel hardware has traditionally been very good. (google posts signed binary blobs for google hardware and with the move to google silicon those blobs have been getting smaller or may be completely eliminated now)
Are you saying that Pixel's abysmal long term support record is because Google can't afford to hire kernel and hardware devs? Or does Qualcomm lock them out even with those people after some number of years?
> Are you saying that Pixel's abysmal long term support record is because Google can't afford to hire kernel and hardware devs?
Not can’t, don’t want to.
If it‘s not going to save or make money, company isn’t going to bother. And Google is on a cost-cutting crusade right now so absent an external motivation it’s going to happen even less.
This is a marketing phrase that twists a negative into a positive. Its better to use more objective terms. Gardens give you a perceptions of flowers and fruits.
I like walled garden. Everything appears nice and flowery except for the fact they want to hold you in. You can admire its beauty but can't really trust anything in it due to its darker purpose. Reminds me of the Stepford Wives.
Quite not true. LOS does not need to hack kernal of all deprecated chips to update everything to much higher android ver. There are no reasons manufacturer can't do that. It's a choice made by manufacturer not Qualcomm.
Samsung is terrible, do not buy ever. They are the Apple of Android, big marketing budget, little care about performance or security.
I would recommend against Google phones, while 'they just work', they have been forcing users via dark patterns to use their services more and more. Its quite easy to get stuck with a google drive monthly fee or use their Maps app which is full of ads.
>"They are the Apple of Android, big marketing budget, little care about performance or security."
What are you on about? Every version of iOS I've used the past 11 years, on every iPhone I've used, has been a buttery smooth experience compared to most (not all; most) things Android, and on top of that I've gotten over 5 years of OS/security updates for each model which is practically unheard of with Android OEMs.
How is the actual phone (not computing device) hardware on the Pixel?
The last time I had a Google phone was the 2012 Nexus, and I said never again. It had absolutely trash speakers and microphone. I couldn't be talking to someone when it was windy, I couldn't hear them. And when I tried recording a video at a sports stadium, the audio was completely distorted from the noise because the mic couldn't keep up with the noise.
Is the Pixel a good choice for people who spend the majority of their time on the road and not in a quiet office or home?
I have a pixel 6 pro, works great
Never had problems with the microphones, and calls are extra clear because they do some ai nonsense to upscale the audio coming into the phone
My 2 main gripes are:
The modem, I have issues with reception in the strangest locations, I can have direct line of sight to 3 different cell towers and still get stuck on edge till I hit the "Fix connectivity" button in settings, but when it is working (which it does 95% of the time), works great
The camera, amazing photo quality, videos look great, I have nothing against image quality. But the videos this thing takes are MASSIVE, even with HVEC on, a 50 second video can weigh over 300mb. Not sure what's up with that.
Oh also the main shooter camera is mechanically separated from the rest of the phone, so if you shake the phone or whip pan it too hard, you can hear it rattle.
Overall 9/10 though!
I hear the pixel 7 has a better modem
There is the Google Pixel. But it has limited updates and proprietary software for things like the camera. That camera is really nice though and it's as close as the Android experience Google intended to ship because this basically is Google's version of Android. I have the Pixel 6 and it's fine.
Nokia stays close to that but ships their own camera app. It too has limited updates that run out after a few years. Other than the camera software, it's basically "stock android". I'm not sure there even is a stock version for the camera at this point. There are plenty of alternative camera apps though. I always had a weak spot for open camera, which is nice. My previous phone was a Nokia 7 plus. The camera was not great but otherwise a fine phone.
The fairphone is probably the closest to what you want. But you are buying older hardware and at a premium. And fairphone OS is based on an older version of Android and also limited in time for updates. The updates run out at some point though they are pretty good at keeping the security patches going. Repairability is great though.
In short, long term support is hard to get. No-one seems to be willing/capable of doing that. At best you have phones that become unsupported at some point but at least allow you to install alternative firmware (without any promises or support).
I agree with everything you said about Fairphone, but their software support is decent when it comes for security updates (major Android versions upgrades are not guaranteed). They offer 5 years which is way better than average.
Their track record is also good I would say. Fairphone 2 started with Android 5 and it currently offered Android 10 upgrade.
I've been exclusively on Fairphones since Fairphone 1.
Recently switched from FairphoneOS (the stripped, bloatfree, google-free Android) back to stock Android¹
Its updates are fast, steady and consistently good (and improving). The FP1 is ten years old, and still works (though android there is EOL and old, and spare parts no longer available), my FP2 and an FP3 work fine, I can still get parts and Android isn't too old. The hardware is slow, and old, though (e.g. no 5G, power hungry BT, puny camera by current standards).
The FP4 is top notch. Spare parts are cheap (e.g. Replaceable battery only €29, new screen only €80), android 12 good enough. But it does have stuff like Google Meet or TV that I would like to remove but cannot.
¹I'm diabetic. Monitoring and Pump control is moving from dedicated electronics to native apps. And they often require Google Android, cannot or will not run on degoogled android. Same for banking and payment apps.
As long as you don't consider Play services bloatware, yes Pixel is quite clean. I'm still happy with a Pixel 5a. Camera is good enough even with that older model.
I like Android though because compared to others I know with iPhones, there seems to be more ways to customize Android. Termux is one obvious example -- with a BT keyboard, feels like a pocket Linux device. I also use a different launcher as well as different browser and search engine.
> But it has limited updates and proprietary software for things like the camera
It gets as many updates as other Android phones, and there is no blotware whatsoever. Not sure what your comments here are about the camera app. It's just an improved version to use the features of the pixel camera.
Been using a FP4 in Washington State USA under T-Mobile for about 6 months now. Bought it from a British reseller.
Very occasionally I need to bounce the cellular connection, I suspect because I land on an unsupported band/channel. Otherwise LineageOS runs on it like a charm.
I’d love to have a Fairphone as a dev test device but yep, they don’t sell in NA.
It seems to be a common thread with interesting phones… back when there was still some buzz around Sailfish you couldn’t get a device running that in NA either, which may have contributed to that project fizzling. There’s a lot of mobile devs with disposable income you’re opting out of by not selling in North America.
Samsung's default Camera app is quite good for panoramas. I think you could probably grab the latest from one of the APK downloading websites and sideload it.
Honestly, the Pixel phones are probably the best compromise between your requirements. While Samsung gets slightly longer support, the bloatware, IMO, is just too much (depends on your definition of bloatware though). Plus the Pixels are first for latest Android and are generally well-supported with third-party ROMs (Lineage, Graphene, AOSP, etc). So my suggestion is the Pixels, (the "a" series for a less expensive choice).
This may just be the Stockholm Syndrome talking as a longtime Samsung Galaxy user, but I've found it relatively easy to disable most of Samsung's bloatware (and to simply ignore whatever I can't disable). Nova Launcher + Gboard + re-mapping the Bixby button makes a huge difference right off the bat.
Also things like the Edge Panel clipboard are a game changer for power users - ie save two pieces of information from first app, open second app, paste the two just like you were in a Mac with Alfred or similar. I miss that every week on iOS...
Motorola does a pretty good job. Their "bloatware" is mostly the Moto app, which provides really handy and reliable gestures like a double "chop" to toggle flashlight, twisting the phone a few times to enable the camera, three-finger screenshot trigger, etc.
Their phones are really solid but they do lag on OS updates, and their cameras are never good.
Came here to say pretty much exactly that. I've been on a series of moto G phones, from the 5 to my current G83. Good value, the moto app actually adds functionality without being a drag (or even mandatory to use).
Cameras are always sub-par (partner has pixels, and I'm light years behind), although the latest is the least bad in comparison with her current phone.
Current one has survived most of me building a home extension with little damage...previous one developed an intermittent screen touch issue, but only after I dropped it 12 feet onto a concrete floor,so I can't complain on reliability either.
Just want to mention that the moto camera is made FAR worse by the software.
E.g. video on my moto would always be blurry due to bad de-noising settings used by stock software. mcpro24fps allowed me to take dramatically better videos. The difference was HUGE.
Same with photos. Custom gcam roms, after a long time of trying different ones and tweaking, gave me dramatically higher quality photos. Again, night and day difference.
So the hardware is fine; they shoot themselves in the foot with the software.
> but only after I dropped it 12 feet onto a concrete floor
My brain went right to old Nokia phones and I thinking "Thank fuck it was a Motorola, back in the day you would have to had the foundations checked over if it had been an Nokia"
But yeah, Always been happy with Motorola G phones (bar the cvamera, but I'm not really a photo person anyway), I still have an old 2014 Moto G to test apps on old devices/Android.
Last two phones have been Moto G Powers. Multiday battery life, stock Android, SIM and MicroSD cards, and a headphone jack.
Camera's definitely terrible, but I don't really use my phone camera all that much. Biggest advantage, IMO, is the <$150 price tag. It means when I trip and toss my phone into traffic, or forget to take my phone out of my pocket when going snorkeling, or drop my phone off the balcony of my apartment, I can just order a new one on Amazon, swap the SIM, and carry on with my life.
Tangential but I really miss the gestures. I'm much happier with my Pixel 6a, but I had a run of Motorola phones beforehand. God the shake for flashlight and rotate for camera were godsends. Everyone got a kick out of it too, it was always funny to see people react to how great shake for flashlight was.
I wonder if there's an app that can do this now on any phone, but I hadn't thought to look until now.
The brief period I spent with a non Moto phone got me missing the gestures so much as well. It's actually kind of insane how useful the flashlight gesture is. I realized that I actually don't really have a concept of not being to see anymore: anytime I entered a room that was too dark for whatever reason, the muscle memory kicked in immediately. Crazy.
On the non Moto phone I tried replicating it with Tasker. It worked... Sometimes. But it was a really cheap random Redmi model so that might have been the issue, more than the app itself.
It's not exactly the same, but iOS has an accessibility feature where you can map double and triple tapping the back of the phone to things like turning the flashlight on and off.
It's nearly like shaking and uses the gyros because there's no touch interface there.
Moto phones are excellent value and generally sturdy. I find myself going further and further down market buying cheaper phones like Moto G because I haven't seen a flagship feature that looks really compelling in years. Unless foldables really take off (doubt it) my main concern is really just battery and the Moto G Power is the current king.
My main problem with Moto is I've had really bad luck with their charging ports. I had a G4 and a G6, and both had ports that were loose from day 1 (so much so that car charging was impossible because it would instantly fall out) and both become unusable towards the end. I have several family members who had the same experience.
I'll agree with Motorola, though pretty-much the first thing I did when I switched mine on was disable all the Moto app stuff. Once you have done that it does mostly stay completely out of your way, which is probably the closest you're going to get to a non-bloatware system.
One slight warning, and I'm not even sure if it's completely true, but my G8+ is only a few years old and it has slowed to an absolute crawl. My current understanding is that this is because the flash storage is running out of writes and slowing down. If true, it means they used a sub-standard part with an unacceptably short lifespan.
I always get a used phone (2-3 years old) that is officially supported by LineageOS. I've made good experiences with Motorola Moto G phones. A good alternative are Pixels or OnePlus. My current phone is a Motorola Moto G6 Plus, which was released in 2018, now running LineageOS 20 (Android 13) just fine.
I've always wanted to try LineageOS on one of my older devices. But I always end up getting a device that never has Lineage support. I have a Samsung Note 4, Note 8, and now Note 20 Ultra. Meanwhile, support is for Note 3, 9, and 10.
Does the camera work as well as with the stock OS?
I've used custom ROMs for years, but never used Graphene.
My current phone is a Xiaomi Mi9T. With a custom ROM, to properly make use of the camera you need to flash a magisk module.
Otherwise you are stuck with the stock android camera app which doesn't perform nearly as well.
This phone is on its last legs, the screen was smashed so I had to replace it with a cheaper LCD, which has affected battery life and sometimes is unresponsive.
Thinking about getting a used Pixel 6 and giving Graphene a go.
You can use the google camera app, but they are trying to make their own Camera app as good as the official App.
> Google Camera can take full advantage of the available cameras and image processing hardware as it can on the stock OS and does not require GSF or sandboxed Google Play on GrapheneOS. Direct TPU and GXP access by Google apps including Google Camera is controlled by a toggle added by GrapheneOS and doesn't provide them with any additional access to data. The toggle exists for attack surface reduction. Every app can use the TPU and GXP via standard APIs including the Android Neural Networks API and Camera2 API regardless.
> We aim to reduce the benefits of Google Camera compared to GrapheneOS Camera over time, especially on Pixels. Many features of Google Camera will end up being available for GrapheneOS Camera in the next year or so via CameraX extensions including more aggressive HDR+, Night Sight and Portrait. Video features such as slow motion and time lapse are likely further away than within the next year. These video features could potentially be provided via CameraX vendor extensions or could be implemented via our own post-processing of the video output. Panorama, Photo Sphere, Astrophotography, Motion Photos, Frequent Faces, Dual Exposure Controls, Google Lens, etc. aren't on the roadmap for GrapheneOS Camera. Video frame rate configuration and H.265 support should be available for GrapheneOS Camera in the near future via CameraX improvements along with DNG (RAW) support in the further future.
Google started a program back in 2014 to encourage other hardware vendors to build just such things. It is alas, now on hospice care, with death imminent:
I had the Mi A1 since its release until a couple months (fall in a water bucket and broke), and it was a perfect phone at that time:
Pure Android experience with no bloatware, 2 full days of battery with moderate usage, a decent screen, fast, confortable to use, and also was cheap.
Nowadays most Android phones have plenty of bloat and lack some specifications unless you spend some money. It's sad how a cheap phone that were usable was €150 to €200 and now the bracket is between €300 and €350.
I recently looked into this due to my old device breaking.
The best options are:
- Google Pixel
- Motorola
- Nokia
I ended up with a Google Pixel 7. The Motorola Edge 40 was a close contender, but I ended up axing it from the list due to the curved screen edge. My selection criteria were: cleanest Android possible; latest Android version; long-term support; wireless charging; decent IP rating.
My previous phones were a Moto G2 and Nokia 6.1, for comparison. The first one replaced due to the charging port dying and running out of storage, the second one having its screen destroyed by dropping it on a tile floor.
Readit News
The reason you don't see long term support on Android is because of Qualcomm. Qualcomm wants manufacturers to build on new chips, so they deprecate older chips and stop support. Most manufacturers don't want to hire kernel and hardware devs.
Samsung can pull off longer support because of Exynos and they have a lot of inhouse expertise to extend support on old Qualcomm chips.
It's all money. They don't want you keeping a phone for 5 years.
Apple can do it because they lock you into their walled garden where they can double and triple dip on getting your money.
They also build their own chips.
Yes.
Hardware vendors love Open Source. It essentially cedes all control of the market to them.
They spend minimal time/money/effort on software development and updates because surprise, surprise --- it doesn't produce profits, it consumes them. Hardware is where they make all their money.
The only realistic way to get long term software support on Android is from Open Source. This means installing a replacement, 3rd party Open Source ROM. This is the first thing I do when I buy a new phone --- and I won't buy a phone that doesn't have good 3rd party support.
I have a Moto G4 Play from 2016 that gets regular software updates running e/OS. The last update was May 14th. This is my backup phone (I have a backup for everything that is considered "essential").
My primary phone is a Moto One 5G Ace (2021) which also has excellent support from e/OS and it's currently cheap as dirt considering the hardware specs. Only $129 from Amazon with 6GB RAM, 128GB storage, Snapdragon 765 processor, 2 day battery and microSD expansion.
If I accidentally leave it in an Uber or drop it in a toilet, it's sad but no big deal. I just switch to the backup until the replacement arrives. Try that with your $1000 iPhone.
What ROM do you use and what level of support does it provide? I was interested in third-party ROMs until I read this part of the GrapheneOS FAQ[1]:
> GrapheneOS can only fully provide security updates to a device provided that the OEM is releasing them. When an OEM is no longer providing security updates, GrapheneOS aims to provide harm reduction releases for devices which only have a minimum of 3 years support. [...] Harm reduction releases do not have complete security patches because it's not possible to provide full security updates for the device without OEM support and they are intended to buy users some limited time to migrate to a supported device.
So, what exactly do people mean when they claim that third-party ROMs provide "long-term" support? Do they just allow older phones to run newer versions of Android, albeit without full security updates?
[1] https://grapheneos.org/faq#device-lifetime
You’re just getting an updated OS.
Do you really keep them fully sync'ed? How do you sync photos?
Or by laws and regulations.
I hope the EU will do something practical in this area, since it seems to be the only entity capable of pushing some useful changes.
Example: the digital markets act, which will force companies like apple to allow for side loading of apps. No us entity even attempted at anything similar as far as i know.
(Which is also nice for long term support.)
> Apple can do it because they lock you into their walled garden
Samsung can do it because they're smart, but Apple does it because they're evil? Why doesn't Apple also have in house expertise?
> Most manufacturers don't want to hire kernel and hardware devs.
Qualcomm seems like a scapegoat here. Google surely has expertise here. Isn't this sorely on Google?
Nobody said Apple are doing it because they're are evil, calm down.
Your parent said Apple can afford to give you longer support because they not only make money when they sell you the phone HW, they also keep making money from your iCloud, iTunes and every other third party subscription or SW you buy on Apple App store. Basically, they double dip and monetize you over the entire period of you owning the device. That's exactly what your parent said. Apple's walled garden affords them enough revenue to keep funding SW updates for your old Apple devices which Android makers can't do.
All the other Android makers, apart from Google, don't make any other money after they sell you the phone HW, since Google is the one earning 30% off Playstore sales, not Samsung, or the others HW makers. Therefore they can't afford to pay teams of SW devs to keep pushing you SW updated for your old phone, so many years after you stopped giving them money, especially since they depend on Quallcomm and other semi vendors giving them up to date drivers, which they won't do for free since semi makers also want to sell newer chips rather than supporting older ones for free.
Google could do like Apple in theory, since they own the whole ecosystem stack apart from the SoC and they do have the cash for it, but they don't want to do it because Google sucks at maintaining anything "old" long-term, especially HW, so they keep doing what Google does best and focus on the new shiny while sunsetting the older shinys.
It's ironic that Samsung offers longer Andorid updates for their flagships S-series, than Google themselves do for the Pixels. That says everying about Google.
Nonsense.
It’s because they have all the expertise in-house anyway, they get extremely good terms due to their weight and negotiation, and they figure if you don’t change phone now you might do so next year and they’ll get your money anyway. There’s no brand loyalty on the Android side, and fostering it seems impossible (even brand recognition efforts don’t seem to do much).
This incentivises them to support all their phones as long as technologically possible.
Other phone manufacturers have the opposite incentive, they want you to buy a new phone ASAP, since they earn nothing if you don’t buy a new phone.
From an e-waste perspective, Apple’s model is definitely better.
Funny way to spell “provide quality service compared to competitors”.
(1) Linux didn't fail, the desktop is already a joy to use imho. It is just waiting till it reaches critical mass, then the Year of the Linux Desktop will be nigh.
And that’s a problem that needs fixed. Out of any piece of software, the one that connects my hardware to my OS is probably one of the most important.
Although I find it dubious this alone is why Linux historically has failed at desktop. It certainly sucks to deal with, but at least people attempted to use Linux. Personally I would argue that people’s innate fear of change is the bigger problem, in my experience.
I don't think this is particularly relevant. IIRC Qualcomm hardware support includes a handful of binary blobs with restrictive licenses. So if there is a vulnerability in one of those OEMs can't fix it without Qualcomm's support. So it is impossible to promise longer support than Qualcomm will provide. In practice they may be able to support the device longer if they can work around security issues from outside the blob or if no security issues are found, but they can't guarantee it (and without a guarantee there is also less incentive to actually do it).
We are finally seeing Apple, Google and Samsung creating their own SOC with longer software support, hopefully that is enough to disrupt Qualcomm's shitty practices here.
Apple and Google make money off you for as long as you use your phone. Qualcomm only makes money when you buy it. Thus, Qualcomm has little incentive to maintain old chips for long. Not because they are evil, that would be another conversation, but because they only make money off newly sold phones.
I hate mobile computing. It's a pale shadow of what I imagine it could have been.
https://endoflife.date/pixel
if you want the _pure_ android experience, aosp support for pixel hardware has traditionally been very good. (google posts signed binary blobs for google hardware and with the move to google silicon those blobs have been getting smaller or may be completely eliminated now)
What does this even mean?
If you're so concerned about not paying for anything, all you need is buy the phone from Apple. You don't have to pay for anything else.
The reason Apple can support their phones for longer is because they control most of the stack: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2011/09/owning-the-stack...
Is there an iOS equivalent to F-Droid?
Not can’t, don’t want to.
If it‘s not going to save or make money, company isn’t going to bother. And Google is on a cost-cutting crusade right now so absent an external motivation it’s going to happen even less.
This is a marketing phrase that twists a negative into a positive. Its better to use more objective terms. Gardens give you a perceptions of flowers and fruits.
What is that called, an ironic phrase?
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I would recommend against Google phones, while 'they just work', they have been forcing users via dark patterns to use their services more and more. Its quite easy to get stuck with a google drive monthly fee or use their Maps app which is full of ads.
What are you on about? Every version of iOS I've used the past 11 years, on every iPhone I've used, has been a buttery smooth experience compared to most (not all; most) things Android, and on top of that I've gotten over 5 years of OS/security updates for each model which is practically unheard of with Android OEMs.
The last time I had a Google phone was the 2012 Nexus, and I said never again. It had absolutely trash speakers and microphone. I couldn't be talking to someone when it was windy, I couldn't hear them. And when I tried recording a video at a sports stadium, the audio was completely distorted from the noise because the mic couldn't keep up with the noise.
Is the Pixel a good choice for people who spend the majority of their time on the road and not in a quiet office or home?
Overall 9/10 though! I hear the pixel 7 has a better modem
This answer is painfully obvious and posts like OP's shouldn't be allowed on Hacker News.
There is the Google Pixel. But it has limited updates and proprietary software for things like the camera. That camera is really nice though and it's as close as the Android experience Google intended to ship because this basically is Google's version of Android. I have the Pixel 6 and it's fine.
Nokia stays close to that but ships their own camera app. It too has limited updates that run out after a few years. Other than the camera software, it's basically "stock android". I'm not sure there even is a stock version for the camera at this point. There are plenty of alternative camera apps though. I always had a weak spot for open camera, which is nice. My previous phone was a Nokia 7 plus. The camera was not great but otherwise a fine phone.
The fairphone is probably the closest to what you want. But you are buying older hardware and at a premium. And fairphone OS is based on an older version of Android and also limited in time for updates. The updates run out at some point though they are pretty good at keeping the security patches going. Repairability is great though.
In short, long term support is hard to get. No-one seems to be willing/capable of doing that. At best you have phones that become unsupported at some point but at least allow you to install alternative firmware (without any promises or support).
Their track record is also good I would say. Fairphone 2 started with Android 5 and it currently offered Android 10 upgrade.
https://support.fairphone.com/hc/en-us/articles/997918043739...
Recently switched from FairphoneOS (the stripped, bloatfree, google-free Android) back to stock Android¹
Its updates are fast, steady and consistently good (and improving). The FP1 is ten years old, and still works (though android there is EOL and old, and spare parts no longer available), my FP2 and an FP3 work fine, I can still get parts and Android isn't too old. The hardware is slow, and old, though (e.g. no 5G, power hungry BT, puny camera by current standards). The FP4 is top notch. Spare parts are cheap (e.g. Replaceable battery only €29, new screen only €80), android 12 good enough. But it does have stuff like Google Meet or TV that I would like to remove but cannot.
¹I'm diabetic. Monitoring and Pump control is moving from dedicated electronics to native apps. And they often require Google Android, cannot or will not run on degoogled android. Same for banking and payment apps.
Fairphone 3 users despite still having "support" until next year are over a year behind Qualcomm and run the end of life Linux 4.9 kernel.
released in september 2019
I like Android though because compared to others I know with iPhones, there seems to be more ways to customize Android. Termux is one obvious example -- with a BT keyboard, feels like a pocket Linux device. I also use a different launcher as well as different browser and search engine.
I disagree. It overprocesses a lot and it's the worst on people's faces (very unnatural colors).
Other phone makers do that as well with various trade-offs. Samsung is better for portraits, but struggles in other places.
I miss my Huawei Mate 20 Pro, somehow it seems to me that today's flagships are still taking worse SOOC pictures than it.
It gets as many updates as other Android phones, and there is no blotware whatsoever. Not sure what your comments here are about the camera app. It's just an improved version to use the features of the pixel camera.
Very occasionally I need to bounce the cellular connection, I suspect because I land on an unsupported band/channel. Otherwise LineageOS runs on it like a charm.
It seems to be a common thread with interesting phones… back when there was still some buzz around Sailfish you couldn’t get a device running that in NA either, which may have contributed to that project fizzling. There’s a lot of mobile devs with disposable income you’re opting out of by not selling in North America.
Any suggestions?
The issue isn't bloat - the issue is spyware.
Their phones are really solid but they do lag on OS updates, and their cameras are never good.
Cameras are always sub-par (partner has pixels, and I'm light years behind), although the latest is the least bad in comparison with her current phone.
Current one has survived most of me building a home extension with little damage...previous one developed an intermittent screen touch issue, but only after I dropped it 12 feet onto a concrete floor,so I can't complain on reliability either.
E.g. video on my moto would always be blurry due to bad de-noising settings used by stock software. mcpro24fps allowed me to take dramatically better videos. The difference was HUGE.
Same with photos. Custom gcam roms, after a long time of trying different ones and tweaking, gave me dramatically higher quality photos. Again, night and day difference.
So the hardware is fine; they shoot themselves in the foot with the software.
My brain went right to old Nokia phones and I thinking "Thank fuck it was a Motorola, back in the day you would have to had the foundations checked over if it had been an Nokia"
But yeah, Always been happy with Motorola G phones (bar the cvamera, but I'm not really a photo person anyway), I still have an old 2014 Moto G to test apps on old devices/Android.
Camera's definitely terrible, but I don't really use my phone camera all that much. Biggest advantage, IMO, is the <$150 price tag. It means when I trip and toss my phone into traffic, or forget to take my phone out of my pocket when going snorkeling, or drop my phone off the balcony of my apartment, I can just order a new one on Amazon, swap the SIM, and carry on with my life.
I wonder if there's an app that can do this now on any phone, but I hadn't thought to look until now.
On the non Moto phone I tried replicating it with Tasker. It worked... Sometimes. But it was a really cheap random Redmi model so that might have been the issue, more than the app itself.
It's nearly like shaking and uses the gyros because there's no touch interface there.
One slight warning, and I'm not even sure if it's completely true, but my G8+ is only a few years old and it has slowed to an absolute crawl. My current understanding is that this is because the flash storage is running out of writes and slowing down. If true, it means they used a sub-standard part with an unacceptably short lifespan.
I've used custom ROMs for years, but never used Graphene.
My current phone is a Xiaomi Mi9T. With a custom ROM, to properly make use of the camera you need to flash a magisk module. Otherwise you are stuck with the stock android camera app which doesn't perform nearly as well.
This phone is on its last legs, the screen was smashed so I had to replace it with a cheaper LCD, which has affected battery life and sometimes is unresponsive.
Thinking about getting a used Pixel 6 and giving Graphene a go.
> Google Camera can take full advantage of the available cameras and image processing hardware as it can on the stock OS and does not require GSF or sandboxed Google Play on GrapheneOS. Direct TPU and GXP access by Google apps including Google Camera is controlled by a toggle added by GrapheneOS and doesn't provide them with any additional access to data. The toggle exists for attack surface reduction. Every app can use the TPU and GXP via standard APIs including the Android Neural Networks API and Camera2 API regardless.
> We aim to reduce the benefits of Google Camera compared to GrapheneOS Camera over time, especially on Pixels. Many features of Google Camera will end up being available for GrapheneOS Camera in the next year or so via CameraX extensions including more aggressive HDR+, Night Sight and Portrait. Video features such as slow motion and time lapse are likely further away than within the next year. These video features could potentially be provided via CameraX vendor extensions or could be implemented via our own post-processing of the video output. Panorama, Photo Sphere, Astrophotography, Motion Photos, Frequent Faces, Dual Exposure Controls, Google Lens, etc. aren't on the roadmap for GrapheneOS Camera. Video frame rate configuration and H.265 support should be available for GrapheneOS Camera in the near future via CameraX improvements along with DNG (RAW) support in the further future.
All the info: https://grapheneos.org/usage#camera
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_One
Pure Android experience with no bloatware, 2 full days of battery with moderate usage, a decent screen, fast, confortable to use, and also was cheap.
Nowadays most Android phones have plenty of bloat and lack some specifications unless you spend some money. It's sad how a cheap phone that were usable was €150 to €200 and now the bracket is between €300 and €350.
The best options are:
- Google Pixel
- Motorola
- Nokia
I ended up with a Google Pixel 7. The Motorola Edge 40 was a close contender, but I ended up axing it from the list due to the curved screen edge. My selection criteria were: cleanest Android possible; latest Android version; long-term support; wireless charging; decent IP rating.
My previous phones were a Moto G2 and Nokia 6.1, for comparison. The first one replaced due to the charging port dying and running out of storage, the second one having its screen destroyed by dropping it on a tile floor.