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Posted by u/thrownoldoutit 3 years ago
Ask HN: Do you look angry while you work?
So people have always told me I look angry when I'm focusing, and I figured "Yeah I look like every other engineer when they're focusing".

Today a friend walked by a cafe where I was working. He saw me, sent a pic and asked me if everything was OK. I looked furious, which I don't understand, because I was being super productive and am a reasonably happy person.

Who else looks like they're going to war, when they're writing code?

toomanyrichies · 3 years ago
I've gotten this feedback from those around me for years. Even before I was a coder, when I was an ESL teacher in China, I had multiple students approach me (those I had made friends with, they were all 20-somethings and over) and ask me if I was OK, because I looked angry. I appreciated their concern but I didn't feel angry, so I had no clue what they were talking about. It was only later that I learned about the concept of a "resting ___ face", and that I might possess one.

This is a huge reason why I support WFH policies and personally take advantage of them. I don't personally feel the need to "fix" myself; doing so would involve putting on an artifice in order to placate people whose impression of me is founded on incorrect assumptions. It would make me feel like I was walking on eggshells, and it would take up precious mental bandwidth which would be better spent on the work problem at hand.

WFH means management of my facial expression is one less thing I have to worry about, since people can only see my Zoom avatar at best, and usually only see the section of the laptop screen that I'm sharing. Counter to what anti-WFH advocates say, it actually makes me more likely to form close bonds with my coworkers, since they're less likely to jump to conclusions about my demeanor and personality if they aren't privy to my facial expression.

freedomben · 3 years ago
That tendency of other humans to jump to conclusions about a person's demeanor and personality based on facial expression is one of the most irritating characteristics of humans. No matter how many times we hear cliche's like "don't judge a book by its cover," people routinely (and confidently) do that all the time.
asveikau · 3 years ago
At the same time I think a lot of people walk around angry at the world and unaware of their problem. Or a lot of people are depressed and don't realize it. Or any number of issues.

A lot of times it can be all over somebody's face and body language.

Self awareness is hard. I used to take selfies to help neutrally assess my own mood. A lot of the time I was feeling something and unaware, but I could tell from the photo.

toomanyrichies · 3 years ago
I agree. I've also come to accept that it's part of human nature and, on an evolutionary scale, is probably a net good. "Judging a book by its cover" probably saved countless cavemen from being eaten by lions, and probably has similar effects today.

Nevertheless, your point still stands- it is indeed incredibly unfortunate, for the reasons you mentioned.

fian · 3 years ago
I regularly get apologised to by customer service people when I have been waiting for coffee of food. Usually something like "Sorry for the wait".

While I am waiting, I often retreat into my own thoughts, mentally processing some difficult problem or trying to plan out a project in my head. When I am thinking hard I adopt a "focus" face with a slight frown with lips pressed together.

The servers must be reading my face as annoyance or anger.

I always say thanks and smile when I collect my order so they know I wasn't unhappy, especially with them.

I guess most people are more "in the moment" and maintain a neutral or friendly face.

tayo42 · 3 years ago
> This is a huge reason why I support WFH policies and personally take advantage of them.

I dont know if i can even work in an office anymore without scaring people. I developed a habit of cursing or mumbling under my breath. haha

clolege · 3 years ago
I would sometimes record myself developing at my last job. Both screen and camera. It was really enlightening to see both the faces that I made throughout the day, as well as how I could have gone about debugging issues faster.

I've since improved the faces that I make, and I think it helps my mood. It's similar to the effect of how if you smile and nod while eating something gross you acquire the taste faster :)

flippinburgers · 3 years ago
WFH also means interviews from home. I'm a slender person but am not obviously so in video form. I'm also not especially tall. Again, not obvious. So there are several nice equalizers about WFH that some people don't seem to consider. Anyway, I agree with you that WFH is too good to give up.
P5fRxh5kUvp2th · 3 years ago
I don't think resting bitch face is about looking angry, but I understand your overall point.
uuddlrlrbaba · 3 years ago
What is it about if not looking angry?
rewgs · 3 years ago
What else could it possibly be about?
adastra22 · 3 years ago
God forbid I told a female coworker to smile more. I think I would be getting a visit from HR if I did. Yet that is essentially what they are telling you to do…
treeman79 · 3 years ago
My daughters are in performing sports. Cheer, gymnastics, skating, etc. One is fantastic about having a huge smile while she does her routine.

The other goes the super focused borderline angry looking face when she focuses. We actually know she’s giving it her all when she’s giving that face.

If she’s goofing off and just having fun then she smiles.

Unfortunately judges don’t like it so much.

We’re going on 10 years of trying to get her to smile during a routine with no success.

She also can’t smile on command for photos. It’s quite cringe worthy.

Dead Comment

jorisboris · 3 years ago
Multiple researchers have shown that body language feeds back on how you feel.

So maybe you don't want to "fix" yourself for others, but you might consider it for yourself.

sedeki · 3 years ago
I agree that you don't need to change who you are by "fixing" something.

But it is a weak argument for WFH by itself, don't you think?

toomanyrichies · 3 years ago
I didn't say it was my only reason. I said "This is a huge reason...". There are quite a few others as well. I didn't list them, because they're irrelevant to the "Ask HN" question, and are therefore off-topic.
wanderingstan · 3 years ago
I was inspired by a friend who saved hundreds of Webcam selfies of himself at half hour intervals. The face.com API classified the majority as “sad” or “angry”.

Mentioned in my Quantified Self talk here at 1m 15s: https://vimeo.com/42239564#t=1m15s

This led to the development of LifeSlice, which lets anyone do the same, and I now have s as decade of 30-min periodic selfies. Not sure what I’ll do with them all but it’s interesting to see myself age. :)

I don’t look angry, but can confirm that I’m at best expressionless when concentrating at the computer.

http://wanderingstan.github.io/Lifeslice/

davidthewatson · 3 years ago
My favorite part about this is that it captures pandiculation:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21665102/#:~:text=Pandiculat....

And makes me wonder whether a simple computer vision algorithm could classify frequency of pandiculation in the work and we could begin making correlations between pandiculation and perception of mood valence.

wanderingstan · 3 years ago
Cool, "pandiculation" was a new term for me! Had not thought about the purpose of yawning and stretching before.

For others curious, this page gave a better ELI5 definition for me: https://somaticmovementcenter.com/pandiculation-what-is-pand...

sillysaurusx · 3 years ago
Text anchors only work on chrome desktop fyi. It sucks. I once spent all night making a cool lisp tutorial based on text anchors, then realized 80% of the world won’t see it since that’s the percentage of mobile traffic.
segmondy · 3 years ago
hmm, I had a script that took webcam selfie every minute for a year. I never thought to classify it till now. thanks, I'm going to make it again.

Deleted Comment

zzzeek · 3 years ago
When I was in second grade, which per my timeline, was many years before anyone had access to "a computer" outside of a college lab, I recall doing some kind of arts and crafts thing, or fixing a pen, or something, and I channeled a bit of my dad's energy and got very focused on this task. In second grade, it was before they shuttled me off to the gifted and talented program with other "smart kids" so the other kids sort of looked on me as an unusual weirdo, pretty standard stuff, but anyway, this girl that was watching me do whatever it was said, "you look angry", and I realized that channeling my dad's "let's fix this" energy did specifically include some facial contortion that pretty much looked like anger.

nowadays I'm very often a flaming angry coder but that's real anger. It feels the same as when you get angry to press the fire button really fast in a video game, kind of thing. It's been a major issue for decades now as if there are any other people around, I have to really watch my mannerisms and mumblings because there have been negative outcomes from it.

I've also sprinted with other devs who do the same thing. Plus I think it occurs in other fields, like my old drum teacher when I watch him in videos, when he's going for some dramatic drum thing, his face turns to total anger and it is definitely some kind of visceral animal thing you tap into when trying to succeed in a tight space.

piva00 · 3 years ago
> nowadays I'm very often a flaming angry coder but that's real anger. It feels the same as when you get angry to press the fire button really fast in a video game, kind of thing. It's been a major issue for decades now as if there are any other people around, I have to really watch my mannerisms and mumblings because there have been negative outcomes from it.

I'm the same, I completely control my mannerisms and usual expletives when coding near people because... It can get fire-y for no reason, I know that it's just work and code but my inner monologue needs to vent out each frustration I find. I learned that it can appear quite toxic for an outsider, they don't live in my head to know that saying "this fucking bullshit shouldn't have been done this way" is not a judgment on anyone's character or technical abilities, I'm very aware that crappy code was done under constraints (skill level, time crunch, so on and so forth) but somehow I do need to be angry about it to push myself around to fix stuff that doesn't seem right.

It can look aggressive and whiny at the same time and I definitely want to avoid people having this impression of me because I truly don't care so much, it's just work and I kinda gotta do it this way when alone to keep myself in it.

InCityDreams · 3 years ago
>Plus I think it occurs in other fields, like my old drum teacher when I watch him in videos, when he's going for some dramatic drum thing, his face turns to total anger and it is definitely some kind of visceral animal thing you tap into when trying to succeed in a tight space.

Guitarists facials abound - (and anything you can watch with Steve Vai playing will show even more) - https://youtu.be/CqdL36VKbMQ

hombre_fatal · 3 years ago
I found out relatively recently that I look angry when I relax my face. It makes me sad to think how less approachable it has made me over the years. Maybe even lost me some opportunities where someone might have started talking to me or something.

I don’t care how I look while focusing on my computer screen, maybe that’s a feature. But I do mind how I look when I’m just existing in the world.

I now hold my face consciously in an ever so light smile and it has made a big difference. Especially when entering social situations like a bar or party. Damn you, Resting bitch face!

replyifuagree · 3 years ago
This is one reason legacy companies have a hard time executing on software creation. They fundamentally don't understand wtf those engineers are doing. Just ITT alone there are engineers who have been characterized as daydreaming, angry and sad when in fact they were building "castles in the air, from air, creating by exertion of the imagination." to quote Fred Brooks.

That sort of ignorance is death on a bun for software innovation in MBA heavy organizations where non-technical project/product managers rule the roost.

neilv · 3 years ago
"Do you suffer from Bitchy Resting Face" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XinArKp_6fs
tiborsaas · 3 years ago
Although kinda unisex name, the male version is the resting murder face. Which sounds about right for certain kinds of bugs :)

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Resting%20Mu...

neilv · 3 years ago
I'm male, and I prefer to think of it as my (unisex) bitchy resting face. :)
aliqot · 3 years ago
Yes, I'm angry. Stop staring at me asking if I'm okay. I'm commanding lightning to do my bidding.
karmajunkie · 3 years ago
> I'm commanding lightning to do my bidding.

My daughter asked me what I do at work all day last night, and I told her I push a lot of buttons, which (predictably) led to 1000 questions about what buttons, what order, why, etc. From now on I'm just going to say this. :)

cletus · 3 years ago
Mandatory Seinfeld reference [1]. Honestly, this is good advice. So much of work is actually just perception management. Looking annoyed or angry without actually being mean or inconsiderate is a bit of a cheat code.

Beyond perception management there's the issue of avoiding unnecessary interruptions. It can be hard to define what's necesary and what isn't. Rarely does it have anything to do with what someone is interrupting you for but instead, it is (once again) it's perception management.

There is a context-switching contest that comes from being interrupted and it can be hard to get back in the zone. So you want to avoid people interrupting you to ask something that would quite literally be the first link on a trivial Google search.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kafq7yrKAOQ

wara23arish · 3 years ago
I have noticed this since joining a new team this year. There is one person on my team who is always annoyed and complaining about something but really they just dont get anything done. There are various times I had to work with them, and when there are no blockers whatsoever they wont do shit.

I would love to be able to say “do something about it” when they goes on their rants but american culture is too polite. Most of their contributions to team meetings is “docked has this new thing that could be helpful” and various other name-drops. Idk if the rest of the ppl are fooled or its just a thing we put up with.

badcppdev · 3 years ago
I remember working with a team where a new starter had joined and although he talked a lot in meetings I wasn't sure what he was contributing. I checked the code commits and he had committed 2 things in a couple of months.

It wasn't my team so I didn't cause a fuss but from that point onwards I made sure that he wasn't on the critical path for anything I cared about.

In hindsight the mismanagement on that team probably led to the exit 5 years later being $100-200 million lower than it could have been. But the company was super stingy with shares so I'm not sure it would have been worth my time rocking the boat.

In other hindsight I might have realised why I look angry while I'm at work.

sublinear · 3 years ago
Sounds like you should move over to Docker :p