My first layoff was horrible. After losing my job I was drinking heavily for almost half a year and basically lost everything. It's a miracle I even survived the experience in some ways because things got pretty dark at one point.
And to be fair it was largely my fault for not being able to cope, but the brutality of the process was something that was difficult for me to understand at the time. I'm autistic and I tend to be very naive about human relationships. I was working at this place for about 5 years and thought the people I worked with were my friends, even my boss. When I got let go there was no warning - which I now know is normal. I was just finishing up one Friday afternoon and I got a call from my boss basically telling me not to come back on Monday. I didn't understand... I asked why and got some BS explanation, but I took it seriously and tried to propose alternative solutions confused as to why they weren't listening. I then tried to thank them for the time and say goodbye to the team, but I immediately got cut off from all my communication tools (I was working remote at the time). I was so stupid I actually thought they'd call me on Monday and ask me to come back because this was so out of character for how my friends normally treated me. Man I was such an idiot...
Obviously now I know this is standard corporate practise, but at the time it was such a surprise that someone would do something so cruel. The experience has completely altered the trust I have for people in my life, probably irreparably, and I'm now constantly on edge about the same thing happening to me again.
I know layoffs are something that have to happen, but these experiences are hard on people and it's crazy to me how unsympathetic employers can be. Why don't they find it harder to turn sometimes life upside down? Why don't they ever seem to care emotionally about what they're doing?
This is good article. Layoffs are something we should probably talk about more as a society.
If you know someone who's been layed off, please make sure they know you're there for them. Just knowing they're not alone and that people are there and care can take so much weight their shoulders.
> I was so stupid I actually thought they'd call me on Monday and ask me to come back because this was so out of character for how my friends normally treated me. Man I was such an idiot...
This doesn't sound like you're an idiot to me, it sounds like modern corporations are fucked up and we've just gotten used to it. Your reaction was pretty normal for someone who hadn't seen it before.
This is why I don’t work at a corporation, because the entire model is awful. It’s great at making money, but that’s about the only redeeming quality as far as I’m concerned. If corporations were countries, they would be dictatorships. If corporations are people as the Supreme Court would have us believe, they are most certainly psychopaths.
As much as people complain about academia here, I’ve found a home where layoffs don’t have to happen. There’s a permanent home here for people with tenure, guaranteed for life. We vote on who our boss is and they serve a limited term, after which they return to the rank and file. We have a democratic body that has power at the university level and we all get a vote. We vote on practically every decision made in the department.
And even if you don’t have tenure and there is no need for you in the future, you don’t find out about that on Friday with your income, healthcare, relationships, and housing all in question by Monday. How anxiety inducing! We tell you at least a semester in advance instead of escorting you out like a potential arsonist looking to burn the place to the ground. And imagine that, the place is still standing.
Don’t get me wrong there’s a lot wrong with the model at many levels — it’s political and dogmatic, inefficient and bureaucratic. But at least it’s a different model that doesn’t have to be cruel by nature.
Well many corporations are terrible, but there are underlying issues as well (from a US standpoint anyway) such as a litigious society, companies must be guarded in communications around terminations as the employees may sue and any communications will be used in court against the company, also providing "notice" which is different from severance is generally ill advised, I would encourage companies to provide severance packages, but rarely "notice", specifically in a highly sensitive roles like Sysadmin or Dev. as the number of storied around data and IP sabotage and theft are pretty well known, severance softens the blow economically for the outgoing employee(s) while protecting the company.
Thanks for sharing your experience with such honesty. I don’t think you’re an idiot for how you handled the situation. You just didn’t know better and that’s simply unfortunate. It’s amazing that you pulled yourself out of that rut.
I’ve not been laid off as part of a mass layoff, but I have been put on an impossible PiP because my new manager was not able to manipulate me despite his best efforts. At the time, I had no clue why I was put on PiP despite solid performance for the 7 months I was in the company (it was a startup and I didn’t have a direct manager for that time). I was in shock for 3 days but I pulled myself together and investigated the matter by speaking diplomatically with my manager. When I realised he could not answer any questions that would make the PiP “less impossible”, I realised that he just wanted me gone. I resigned the next day.
I look back at that layoff with gratitude:
1. I quit a toxic culture that was bringing out the worst in me
2. I re-calibrated my relationship with work. I no longer push myself all the time (at the time, that’s the only way I would relate to work - by going the extra mile every time)
3. I started a meditation practice that I still practice. It changed my entire outlook on work and life. My relationships are better and life is much much less stressful.
I have been through this too so I think I know how you felt. To make it worse for me I was on a visa when it happened to me and was on a ticking time bomb of 60 days. I even had an anxiety attack but no health insurance because I forgot to sign up for Cobra amid all the craziness. I had to interview crazily and found a job in 5 weeks and then had to uproot my entire life and move to the other side of the country for the new job. It was followed by months of drinking and depression and barely surviving at the new job.
Its been 4 years but even today I wonder if its a uniquely American issue having never faced sudden layoffs while working in SE Asia and Europe. I cannot bear this sudden banishment from the herd and having so called friends suddenly stop talking and communicating. Its scarred me and if my wife and daughter were not from the US , I would leave to go work in a different country in a heartbeat.
It happens here in Europe too - or at least it does here in the UK. I think the US might be worse for it though.
Your situation sounds absolutely horrific. I'm sorry you had to go through that.
I know someone going through something similar at the moment and I'm really worried about him. He moved to the UK for work and recently got layed off unexpectedly. Now he's in a position where he can't afford his rent and he can't afford school tuition for his son. He might end up being forced to take his son out of school and move back home which he obviously doesn't want to do as his family are settled here now. His son doesn't really know anything else and see's the UK as his home.
When I went through what I went through I just had my girlfriend to worry about. If I had a child I don't know how I would have coped to be honest. It's so much harder when people depend on you and you know you're letting them down.
Companies love to promote the idea that work is a second family.
It isn't, it's a cut throat place, where even "work friends/family" would throw you under the bus for a promotion or a raise.
You should always keep a distance from coworkers. They could report you to HR for anything even after hours.
What the.. such a short notice, is that even legally allowed?
Every lay-off at the place I worked was always companied with a thank-you speech and a farewell present. They kept working as till they found a new job as well.
It depends on the jurisdiction, but it's legal in lots of places. Even in some countries where there are employee protections, it's possible to do without much consequence. For example, in the UK an employee could take the employer to a employment tribunal.. in a year's time. Even if we're talking about a true layoff/redundancy situation, it can happen, particularly if there's a payoff involved.
I went through a Layoff a few years back (pre-covid but working remotely). Phone call with my manager + HR, all access terminated immediately (though I did get to say goodbye to a few coworkers via Linkedin). I'd been there a while so at least the severance was pretty decent and more than covered the transition while job hunting.
Note, many companies are required by security policies (which are themselves required due to regulators or customers that demand it) to immediately cut off access to employees for all services before notice of termination.
That's a really rough thing in terms of a human relationship, but there's a lot of reasons why that is the case in practice.
I understand the reasoning, but then shouldn't someone leaving a job voluntarily just stop showing up without any warning as well? This would avoid problems such as retaliation by the employer, etc.
It's rather strange that employees are expected to give advanced notice when quitting, but employers are not expected to give advanced notice when firing people.
>It's rather strange that employees are expected to give advanced notice when quitting, but employers are not expected to give advanced notice when firing people.
Well on the flip side I know many people who've received severance pay after being let go, but I don't know anyone who's provided labor to a company for months after leaving.
In most US states, you do not need to give any notice to your employer when quitting. However not giving notice can burn a future bridge. Similar to how a poorly done layoff, (such-as coinbase) can prevent talented candidates from considering the company.
I understand and sympathise with the compassionate aspects of the issue, but "giving notice" need only mean paying out a few weeks' time, rather than allowing/requiring the employee to keep coming in.
There's nothing legally stopping you from not going into to work tomorrow. You don't even have to speak to them ever again as long as you make sure to return any of their equipment that you have in your possession.
A lot of Europeans countries have protections in place, including mandatory weeks of notice and negociation, before any layoffs can happen.
Somehow, regulators are fine here with interpersonal discussion — including through electronic channels — still happening up to the last day of employment.
>A lot of Europeans countries have protections in place, including mandatory weeks of notice and negociation, before any layoffs can happen.
Not all EU countries have negotiations and not for all industries, only the unionized ones, otherwise there's nothing to negociate with individuals and you can just let them go whenever you want to (most of the time).
Bitpanda in Austria instantly cut employees off once the layoffs were announced and escorted them out on the same day. It's legal and standard M.O. for most big tech companies when they let people go. You still get your legally required notice period, but you'll have to take it at home, not in the office.
It depends on the company, how vulnerable it considers its IP against potential sabotage from disgruntled employees, and since tech workers tend to be pretty skilled at the company's internal tech, most companies aren't taking their chances and immediately lock all your accounts and escort you out. All legal.
Those weeks of negotiations you're talking about mostly apply to old-school, factory style, unionized jobs at established conglomerates where employees don't have so much leverage for sabotage, and can't just be let go without heavy union pushback, but that rarely applies to tech workers who don't enjoy such protections because they've mostly seen a bull market where they didn't need/want it.
>Somehow, regulators are fine here with interpersonal discussion — including through electronic channels — still happening up to the last day of employment.
For most tech jobs, those communications once you've been let go, will have to happen outside of the company's internal network, i.e. using your personal email from home.
In my country, NL, employees often stay on for up to 2 months after they've been 'fired'. It's standard practice and people usually just continue to work and transfer stuff to other departments before they leave.
Yeah, that's an option as well. Or you stay on the payroll for the notice period, usually 3 months in Germany and enjoy your time off. Both are fine and depend on the circumstances. I had both in my life, working until the end (basically, there was somr vacation to be taken at the end) and stopping to work when I handed in the notice or was given the notice (both happened). Personally, I prefer the latter option.
Why is it a rough thing in terms of a human relationship? It's good that by revoking all access, both parties can confirm it before termination and the terminated employee is free from any responsibilities for something related with their access which happens in the future.
Many are not required, but do it anyway of course.
Either because they're shitting their pants (irrationally believing that these people are both willing to commit, and capable of committing great acts of sabotage on their way out). Or they rationally understand that their internal security measures are a total shitshow (and so the potential for sabotage is real), or that some of these people are rigthfully disgruntled (hence, the motive for sabotage is real).
Or (as I suspect) because it helps them emotionally distance themselves from the people whose lives will be (at the very least) dinged by being on the receiving end of these events. "Why did we let you find out about the layoff by having your account locked? Because we knew you were unstable and vindictive, and basically a walking liability to the company all along."
What's different in Germany (and most other European countries) is that there are legal requirements to give Y weeks of notice if someone has worked in the company for X years. Also, for layoffs ("betriebsbedingte Kündigung") there are certain rules that have to be followed, i.e. people who were hired later are generally the first on the chopping block, plus other criteria. What's not different is that most of the time you will be shown the door as quickly as possible. You get your notice time, and you get paid until your actual termination date, but you spend that time at home ("freigestellt").
This also happens in Germany, but it depends on the case and isn't a hard rule. It's more likely to happen for people fired for cause, or if there are any other reasons that trust broke down. And even then it does not change anything about the employement duration, the employee is simply asked to not come into work anymore but is paid the remaining period as defined in the law or the contract.
That’s just a lazy lie. Go ahead and revoke production access, VPN even, but email and SaaS chat? That’s just plain US attitude about “termination”; the digital equivalent of publicly escorting you out of the building (without even carrying the box of personalia).
No, he is referring to countries like france where there is protection setup to make it hard for company to have whole QA team fired cuz product was shipped and they wont be needed for few months etc
some might cut you off from work and you will end up getting payed for nothing but thats on business to decide on.
As tech workers we're in a great position to move the needle a bit more towards a cooperative/worker owned model for our livelihoods and careers. That would address a lot of the problems here around the impersonality of it all, having to lose meaningful relationships, obscurity around business decisions, etc.
Just unionizing can really move the needle on getting companies to eliminate some of the casual cruelty. Unfortunately approximately everyone on HN is a temporarily embarrassed 10xer who thus feels no solidarity with their fellows.
How does a cooperative raise money without being shareholder owned?
Clubhouse has something like 80 employees and raised $110mm. Is every employee expected to bring $1.4 mil to the table when joining? Seems like it would reduce the pool of available candidates.
It doesn't work, for the simple fact as not everyone works the same. As the saying is, in most teams 20% of the people do 80% of the work and move the team forward, while the rest do fill the gaps, and are more of helper, yet want the same comp.
I want a new US law that will incriminate managers of public companies when they publicly lie about upcoming layoffs. The typical “there is no plan for layoffs at this time”.
This is lying to the investors about the status of the company, lying to the employees who keep on with their lives while they should be looking for new options.
There are penalties for making false statements to investors, which can include SEC coming down on you or an investor lawsuit. Statements made represent what we know at that time. Things have changed from January till now. Consumer sentiment is in the gutter and we don't know when the interest rates hikes will stop. Interest rates have a huge impact on public companies due the debt public companies carry. What you're seeing is the tightening of cash flow. Companies are cutting back on expenses. This has a huge impact downstream. I would hate to be at a SaaS company because new implementations are getting pulled and deal flow has dried up. Some of these companies are public. What they knew two months ago and what they know are completely different.
My biggest annoyance is that a bunch of large public companies did stock buybacks when the market was at record highs. Now that debt is expensive, doing secondary offerings just completes the buy high sell low scenario and shows bad leadership.
My red flag goes up immediately as soon as any manager, or executive, starts making claims about no layoffs. The least they can do is provide enough severance that you have ample time to find something new without worrying about money.
The European way? Announce it months in advance (which is when it was decided anyway) that you are in the process of layoffs and align with both investors and employees about the plan.
FWIW, it also sucks being on the other side of a layoff. The people who survive are now constantly under threat of more layoffs and given two or more times their normal workload to carry the work of their prior colleagues. It's also harder to GTFO and find another job because all your prior colleagues are now on the market (not so much now that remote is more popular, yay). It's definitely an "I'm stuck, and this stinks" situation.
I got laid off a few years ago and I immediately bought a plane ticket to Spain to do the Camino de Santiago for a month. Ended up staying almost 3 months.
Of course I was lucky that I was single, in tech, w/ a high(er) salary that allowed me to do that, but it was a positively, life-changing turning point for me.
Since then, I've never re-joined the grind of FTE.
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And to be fair it was largely my fault for not being able to cope, but the brutality of the process was something that was difficult for me to understand at the time. I'm autistic and I tend to be very naive about human relationships. I was working at this place for about 5 years and thought the people I worked with were my friends, even my boss. When I got let go there was no warning - which I now know is normal. I was just finishing up one Friday afternoon and I got a call from my boss basically telling me not to come back on Monday. I didn't understand... I asked why and got some BS explanation, but I took it seriously and tried to propose alternative solutions confused as to why they weren't listening. I then tried to thank them for the time and say goodbye to the team, but I immediately got cut off from all my communication tools (I was working remote at the time). I was so stupid I actually thought they'd call me on Monday and ask me to come back because this was so out of character for how my friends normally treated me. Man I was such an idiot...
Obviously now I know this is standard corporate practise, but at the time it was such a surprise that someone would do something so cruel. The experience has completely altered the trust I have for people in my life, probably irreparably, and I'm now constantly on edge about the same thing happening to me again.
I know layoffs are something that have to happen, but these experiences are hard on people and it's crazy to me how unsympathetic employers can be. Why don't they find it harder to turn sometimes life upside down? Why don't they ever seem to care emotionally about what they're doing?
This is good article. Layoffs are something we should probably talk about more as a society.
If you know someone who's been layed off, please make sure they know you're there for them. Just knowing they're not alone and that people are there and care can take so much weight their shoulders.
This doesn't sound like you're an idiot to me, it sounds like modern corporations are fucked up and we've just gotten used to it. Your reaction was pretty normal for someone who hadn't seen it before.
As much as people complain about academia here, I’ve found a home where layoffs don’t have to happen. There’s a permanent home here for people with tenure, guaranteed for life. We vote on who our boss is and they serve a limited term, after which they return to the rank and file. We have a democratic body that has power at the university level and we all get a vote. We vote on practically every decision made in the department.
And even if you don’t have tenure and there is no need for you in the future, you don’t find out about that on Friday with your income, healthcare, relationships, and housing all in question by Monday. How anxiety inducing! We tell you at least a semester in advance instead of escorting you out like a potential arsonist looking to burn the place to the ground. And imagine that, the place is still standing.
Don’t get me wrong there’s a lot wrong with the model at many levels — it’s political and dogmatic, inefficient and bureaucratic. But at least it’s a different model that doesn’t have to be cruel by nature.
There are many other things as well
I’ve not been laid off as part of a mass layoff, but I have been put on an impossible PiP because my new manager was not able to manipulate me despite his best efforts. At the time, I had no clue why I was put on PiP despite solid performance for the 7 months I was in the company (it was a startup and I didn’t have a direct manager for that time). I was in shock for 3 days but I pulled myself together and investigated the matter by speaking diplomatically with my manager. When I realised he could not answer any questions that would make the PiP “less impossible”, I realised that he just wanted me gone. I resigned the next day.
I look back at that layoff with gratitude:
1. I quit a toxic culture that was bringing out the worst in me
2. I re-calibrated my relationship with work. I no longer push myself all the time (at the time, that’s the only way I would relate to work - by going the extra mile every time)
3. I started a meditation practice that I still practice. It changed my entire outlook on work and life. My relationships are better and life is much much less stressful.
Its been 4 years but even today I wonder if its a uniquely American issue having never faced sudden layoffs while working in SE Asia and Europe. I cannot bear this sudden banishment from the herd and having so called friends suddenly stop talking and communicating. Its scarred me and if my wife and daughter were not from the US , I would leave to go work in a different country in a heartbeat.
Your situation sounds absolutely horrific. I'm sorry you had to go through that.
I know someone going through something similar at the moment and I'm really worried about him. He moved to the UK for work and recently got layed off unexpectedly. Now he's in a position where he can't afford his rent and he can't afford school tuition for his son. He might end up being forced to take his son out of school and move back home which he obviously doesn't want to do as his family are settled here now. His son doesn't really know anything else and see's the UK as his home.
When I went through what I went through I just had my girlfriend to worry about. If I had a child I don't know how I would have coped to be honest. It's so much harder when people depend on you and you know you're letting them down.
Hope you're doing better now.
Also, your employer is not your friend and definitely not your family.
Companies love to promote the idea that work is a second family. It isn't, it's a cut throat place, where even "work friends/family" would throw you under the bus for a promotion or a raise.
You should always keep a distance from coworkers. They could report you to HR for anything even after hours.
Highly recommend reading "Corporate Confidential"
Every lay-off at the place I worked was always companied with a thank-you speech and a farewell present. They kept working as till they found a new job as well.
That's a really rough thing in terms of a human relationship, but there's a lot of reasons why that is the case in practice.
It's rather strange that employees are expected to give advanced notice when quitting, but employers are not expected to give advanced notice when firing people.
Well on the flip side I know many people who've received severance pay after being let go, but I don't know anyone who's provided labor to a company for months after leaving.
It's almost universal that layoffs include (at minimum) a few weeks of full pay. Sometimes months.
It's effectively the same as getting advanced notice, you just aren't expected to do any work after you get notice.
In many places and industries, you become a risk when you give notice, and are cut off from company resources immediately.
This is most visible in the financial industry, but I've seen it elsewhere too.
It's not really a big deal. Everyone understands it, and you just adjust your communication choices accordingly.
Somehow, regulators are fine here with interpersonal discussion — including through electronic channels — still happening up to the last day of employment.
Not all EU countries have negotiations and not for all industries, only the unionized ones, otherwise there's nothing to negociate with individuals and you can just let them go whenever you want to (most of the time).
Bitpanda in Austria instantly cut employees off once the layoffs were announced and escorted them out on the same day. It's legal and standard M.O. for most big tech companies when they let people go. You still get your legally required notice period, but you'll have to take it at home, not in the office.
It depends on the company, how vulnerable it considers its IP against potential sabotage from disgruntled employees, and since tech workers tend to be pretty skilled at the company's internal tech, most companies aren't taking their chances and immediately lock all your accounts and escort you out. All legal.
Those weeks of negotiations you're talking about mostly apply to old-school, factory style, unionized jobs at established conglomerates where employees don't have so much leverage for sabotage, and can't just be let go without heavy union pushback, but that rarely applies to tech workers who don't enjoy such protections because they've mostly seen a bull market where they didn't need/want it.
>Somehow, regulators are fine here with interpersonal discussion — including through electronic channels — still happening up to the last day of employment.
For most tech jobs, those communications once you've been let go, will have to happen outside of the company's internal network, i.e. using your personal email from home.
Dead Comment
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Either because they're shitting their pants (irrationally believing that these people are both willing to commit, and capable of committing great acts of sabotage on their way out). Or they rationally understand that their internal security measures are a total shitshow (and so the potential for sabotage is real), or that some of these people are rigthfully disgruntled (hence, the motive for sabotage is real).
Or (as I suspect) because it helps them emotionally distance themselves from the people whose lives will be (at the very least) dinged by being on the receiving end of these events. "Why did we let you find out about the layoff by having your account locked? Because we knew you were unstable and vindictive, and basically a walking liability to the company all along."
> That's a really rough thing in terms of a human relationship
The security policies didn’t come down from the mountain etched on a stone tablet. Humans thought them up and put them in place.
It’s important to remember and acknowledge that everything we do is the result of a human’s choice.
Then why isn' it the case in eg Germany. Whats different.
Almost one month of free time. Spent that time learning new stack and landed a job that paid me twice as much as the old one.
In Europe its not so bad to get some spare time while still getting paid.
Friend was in similar situation, but he had 3 months of paid free time.
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Coworkers just disappear and show as deactivated, and out of privacy nobody will tell you what happened. They just vanish.
some might cut you off from work and you will end up getting payed for nothing but thats on business to decide on.
https://www.igalia.com/
Other examples: https://github.com/hng/tech-coops https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31456918
Clubhouse has something like 80 employees and raised $110mm. Is every employee expected to bring $1.4 mil to the table when joining? Seems like it would reduce the pool of available candidates.
I’m not looking for community at work, I’m looking for money.
I have seen this happening over and over.
Your 80/20 speaks to remuneration, which can be negotiated and does not have to be equal, especially when equality isn't fair.
This is lying to the investors about the status of the company, lying to the employees who keep on with their lives while they should be looking for new options.
This is pure fraud.
My biggest annoyance is that a bunch of large public companies did stock buybacks when the market was at record highs. Now that debt is expensive, doing secondary offerings just completes the buy high sell low scenario and shows bad leadership.
Though I agree lying is wrong
how is this helpful.
I ended up following her.
I suspect that I'm in a minority, though.
Of course I was lucky that I was single, in tech, w/ a high(er) salary that allowed me to do that, but it was a positively, life-changing turning point for me.
Since then, I've never re-joined the grind of FTE.
For regulatory / compliance reasons they may have been told to avoid discussions with you or direct you to HR.