It appears this was the result of terrible security at GiveSendGo. I'd agree it could be state sponsored, but I am certain there are enough people with the skills to do this on their own downtown Ottawa (even if it turned out they work for the gov't).
That said, I am thoroughly disappointed the Federal gov't and much of the media coverage. They have done nothing but make the situation worse. I think it is intentional (I assume some political end game), but their actions are fueling even more outlandish conspiracy theories.
The most insane was that all layers of government did nothing to stop the noise (truck horns), but it ended when a 21 year old who simply filed a court injunction and the protesters complied.
I've watched the Toronto Police Service play their A game through this entire debacle. They shut down the protests hard and were clearly visible throughout the city with heavy trucks and busses to block roads and maintain control of the situation.
The idea that Justin Trudeau needs martial law to deal with parked trucks is outrageous. This isn't an insurrection (reference to an MOU was removed from their website and I agree with the assertion that it was a poorly thought out idea, not a threat), there is no violence, and no obvious danger. The last person to use martial law was Trudeau's father (Pierre) for an actual terrorist attack and kidnapping (the diplomat was later murdered). Get some proper police on the job and drop mandates for ineffective measures and let's move on with our lives.
Media coverage of these protests is vastly negative. I remember only a few years ago (2020) when protests were undoubtedly violent across the United States. Video evidence of this violence as well as mass crowd driven theft was widely documented and distributed. I have yet to see video evidence of any violence from freedom convoys, and the ground based video evidence I have seen appears vastly peaceful. This does not mean there isn’t violence. Indeed, blockading roads could be construed as violence based on an argument for different definitions of the word. Yet, from my personal observations, it seems that the protests are essentially peaceful, citizens living in these cities are in support in large numbers, and this is running counter to the narrative being espoused in mainstream media sources, with the possible exception of Fox News. More or less it seems as though media sources are mischaracterizing these protests overall. Furthermore, it can be effectively argued that forcing workers to get vaccinated or lose their jobs is inherently discriminatory and perhaps even anti-freedom. But these are only my personal observations and conclusions, be what they are, a single individuals insight into the times occurring around him, debate as you will.
Yeah, they intend fully peaceful protests and bring long guns, body armor, large cache of ammunition...[0] and call for the overthrow of the democratic government.
This doesn't even resemble a spontaneous protest, it's organized and funded as part of the global push to fascism. The anti-vax component is a thin pretext.
> Furthermore, it can be effectively argued that forcing workers to get vaccinated or lose their jobs is inherently discriminatory and perhaps even anti-freedom.
From my understanding, this is only the case for truckers crossing the border. Most of the vaccination mandates I have heard of have been at the provincial or municipal levels and only affect employees of the government or publicly controlled institutions (health, education, police). Even then, it is typically on unpaid leave. Relatively few mandates have come from Ottawa, simply because it isn't their jurisdiction. They aren't leaving much room for human rights complaints, particularly since I believe employers were already within their rights to demand certain vaccinations. I very much doubt that it would even qualify as discriminatory, since it does not affect protected classes.
11 people were arrested on weapons charges at the Alberta blockade (handguns and body armor) and one person was arrested and charged with conspiracy to commit murder for trying to run over police with his tractor
> it seems that the protests are essentially peaceful, citizens living in these cities are in support in large numbers
This is not true in any of the relevant cities; it is an extremely vocal, and very small, minority of people who are in support, and I can guarantee you that most of the few people who do support it would change their minds if it was their neighbourhood people were honking in all night.
Note that over 90% of Canadian truckers are already vaccinated, and similar percentages of the large urban centres being harassed are vaccinated as well. Most people are entirely against these "protests", and will be happier when they're over.
> Furthermore, it can be effectively argued that forcing workers to get vaccinated or lose their jobs is inherently discriminatory
It cannot be effectively argued, because it is not discriminatory; "people who refuse to believe in medical science" is not a protected class. If you need to get a background check to get a job, that is not discriminatory. If you need to have a license to do a job, that is not discriminatory. If you need to be vaccinated to do your job (not just COVID, but otherwise), that is not discriminatory.
> and perhaps even anti-freedom.
Freedom has limits. You don't have the freedom to endanger others.
Freedom does not mean "I get to eat my cake and have it too"; it means you're able to make a choice. Do you want to get vaccinated and do your job, or do you want to refuse to get vaccinated and leave that job so that you aren't endangering others?
What these people are protesting is that they made their choice and have to deal with the consequences of that choice. If you don't want to get a driver's license, you can't protest that you should still be allowed to drive a car; if you don't want to get a passport, you can't protest that you should still be allowed to travel internationally. The rules and restrictions are clear and up-front.
Also: I have friends in Ottawa, and am hearing multiple reports of people being harassed or threatened by these "protesters" (many of whom are acting more like terrorists, trying to intimidate everyone around them) for something as simple as wearing a mask.
> Media coverage of these protests is vastly negative.
Keep in mind that in Canada a lot of the media is state owned and operated. So the media coverage might reflect more on what the ruling party wants the people to think of the protests.
On the livestreams they had music blasting and children playing in the snow near the trucks. Doesn’t look like an “insurrection”, as the state media described it, by any stretch (unless they fear snowballs!).
> citizens living in these cities are in support in large numbers
Source? The US polls I've seen show 60% support for vaccine mandates, which is probably why the government feels so confident in shutting down the protests. The media I've seen isn't portraying the protestors as violent but as a nuisance.
> The most insane was that all layers of government did nothing to stop the noise (truck horns), but it ended when a 21 year old who simply filed a court injunction and the protesters complied.
I think one point that the last two years has nailed home (around the world) is that how protestors are treated has little to do with what their tactics and behavior are, and more to do with simply whether their message ideologically aligns with the police.
If the police agree with some group of protestors, then they're treated with kid gloves, and can get away with anything. The police will throw their hands up and say "nope, can't possibly enforce the law anymore, so sorry!" and stand back. If the police do not agree with some other group of protestors, they're going to get beaten, pepper sprayed, and shot with rubber bullets, no matter how they behave. All of a sudden, enforcement is no problem.
This is false and I would expect better of HN posters.
A group of the protestors locked the doors to a downtown apartment building with handcuffs and then attempted to set that building on fire.
Although nobody has been injured yet, there have been plenty of weapons seizures as well as incidents of protestors ramming police vehicles and/or attempting to arrest police officers.
Residents of Ottawa are scared to leave their homes for simple tasks like buying groceries because the protestors have assaulted vulnerable individuals for wearing masks.
The entire thing is a tinderbox just waiting for one unhinged protestor to make a wrong move. And even if we escape this incident peacefully, there are the toxic diesel fumes from idling trucks which have been polluting downtown Ottawa's air for the last two weeks and are likely to become trapped in the urban environment.
> A group of the protestors locked the doors to a downtown apartment building with handcuffs and then attempted to set that building on fire.
What evidence is there that that was real? An allegation was made on Twitter, but only thing I've found that digs into the details looks like a complete debunking (see links at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30336974). It's from a biased source and I'm open to any factual refutation, but I've looked for contrary reporting that digs into the details, and haven't found any. Only a lot of repetition of the original allegation.
With a couple rouge agents being your definition of obvious danger, there can never be another protest. Apply that same logic to the protests a year before and see how it goes
Compared to the violence, burning and looting in front of the American election this is absolutely nothing and have only lasted a few days
Those demonstrations were mostly peaceful according to those we are supposed to listen to, so obviously the current demonstrations are even more peaceful.
Edit: I'm triple vaccinated myself and recommend it for everyone else, but if we have freedom to choose that also must include freedom to do what I think is less smart.
In fact I think at this point the attempt to force people to vaccinate is scaring people away from it.
>A group of the protestors locked the doors to a downtown apartment building with handcuffs and then attempted to set that building on fire.
For some reason the media failed to show the images in their stories, but the two arsonists on camera (not a group) had purple hair. With all the talk of white supremacist instigators at BLM riots, I wouldn't be surprised if this were a case of the opposite, anti-trucker instigators trying to give the protestors a bad name, and purple hair is more likely associated with the left...which ironically has taken a pro government stance on this issue.
In any case afaik no actual tie to the protests has been reported.
A number of illegal weapons, high capacity magazines, and a large quantity of ammunition were seized in a blockade in Alberta. I would not be surprised if there are people with weapons in Ottawa as well, waiting for an opportunity to strike.
Your link doesn't describe anything as "illegal weapons." It just says "long guns" and "handguns" which are both pretty broad terms that undoubtedly encompass guns that are legal in Canada.
Surprisingly, despite "a willingness to use them against police", they didn't use them against police, so it's likelier than not that the story is made up or mischaracterized.
What a convenient thing to happen on the very same day he is expected to announce the taking away of civil liberties of Canadians, and give themselves the right to seize property and equipment.
I didn't see (nonfringe) calls for martial law. I saw calls for the military to tow the trucks because the actual truck towing companies the police normally subcontracted to were unwillingness to piss off their customer base/risk of violence from truckers/agreement with the protests. And, of the various government agencies, only the military had access to the heavy vehicle movers that were needed.
> I think it is intentional (I assume some political end game)
Most media doesn't have a political endgame. They have a bias for sensationalism and clickbait.
> of the various government agencies, only the military had access to the heavy vehicle movers that were needed
I am 100% certain there are people who can easily pick whatever kind of ignition lock cylinders are used in these trucks. It would be far more efficient to "car jack" these trucks, drive them to an impound lot, and auction them off the next day, than trying to tow them with "military tow trucks" (whatever those are).
Definition, martial law: Martial law is the temporary imposition of direct military control of normal civil functions or suspension of civil law by a government, especially in response to a temporary emergency where civil forces are overwhelmed, or in an occupied territory. [1]
The key phrases are "imposition of direct military control of normal civil functions" and "suspension of civil law by a government".
The Canadian Emergencies Act, which was invoked by the Liberal government today, specifically states the following: "For greater certainty, nothing in this Act derogates from the authority of the Government of Canada to deal with emergencies on any property, territory or area in respect of which the Parliament of Canada has jurisdiction" [2].
I'd do a deeper reading but I'm a bit lazy, but my understanding is that the EA does not allow, in any way, a shift in governance that could be described as "martial law" - where the military is in control of civil functions and can create or remove laws as military leadership desires. Even with the EA invoked, the federal government still controls the Canadian military (but can be assisted in enforcing civil law _by_ the military).
I'm no fan of Trudeau either, but we should seek to be precise when discussing hot situations like this. People can get very inflamed off of internet posts and the idea that we're under "martial law" is riling people up.
> I'd do a deeper reading but I'm a bit lazy, but my understanding is that the EA does not allow, in any way, a shift in governance that could be described as "martial law" - where the military is in control of civil functions and can create or remove laws as military leadership desires. Even with the EA invoked, the federal government still controls the Canadian military (but can be assisted in enforcing civil law _by_ the military).
Is that martial law is? What you're describing sounds more like a coup to me ("where the military is in control of civil functions and can create or remove laws as military leadership desires").
My understanding of martial law (very colored by being an American) is basically direct enforcement of domestic government authority by the military with little or no recourse to normal civilian oversight (e.g. courts). However, the military isn't acting independently, but is still taking orders from some civilian leader in some part of the government.
My understanding is that international law requires nation have some form of martial law.
The idea is that if your nation is “hosting” a battle field, and the police start arresting belligerents and charging them with civilian crimes, the military can override them and say “you can’t charge invading soldiers with a crime for honorably doing their duty” - they must be treated as POWs, not criminals.
For example, if Russia is attacking Toronto, and a Toronto Police Officer comes across a wounded Russian soldier with an AK-47, she can’t charge the soldier for possessing an illegal weapon. The soldier would have to be treated as a POW.
This means the military must - must! - be able to say “this area is under martial law”.
I doubt this applies to the current situation.
But if Canada is as diligent as they claim to be about International law, they need to have the ability to declare martial law.
> That said, I am thoroughly disappointed the Federal gov't and much of the media coverage. They have done nothing but make the situation worse. I think it is intentional (I assume some political end game), but their actions are fueling even more outlandish conspiracy theories.
Didn't the father do the exact same thing back in the 70's?
Of course there's political gains, as they say, never get a crisis go to waste.
Also the Ambassador Bridge blockade was ordered by the court to clear on Friday midnight. Police cleared it Sunday with some arrests, some resistance but not much else.
Pretty standard when it comes to Canadian protests.
While there is no outright violence, there is torture to local residents, there was attempted arson, there is continued intimidation and harassment of those wearing masks, there is intimidation of visible minorities, there are attacks on businesses....
Is that enough to convince you that the situation is out of hand and than stricter action is needed?
The protestors haven't complied with not honking.
Please, please be careful with how you frame this. There was severe inaction and dangerous incompetence displayed by Ottawa police but please don't spin this as the federal government overstepping.
Edit - within seconds of posting, this is downvoted. Truly a shameful display by the folks here.
I didn't downvote you, but you're using extreme language like "torture" (I know noise and sleep deprivation are associated with torture but this sort of verbal escalation is not objective) and the only in-depth reporting I've seen on the arson thing makes it seem completely debunked: https://twitter.com/jonkay/status/1490557119816425474 (or https://twitter.com/jonkay/status/1490525934948081666 - I'm not sure what the right link is). That's a biased source, but I can't find anything comparably factual that is taking the allegation seriously. At a minimum, it's not fair to repeat words like "arson" as if they are established facts when at best they are highly disputable.
Looking at the live streams, I see visible minorities going to the protests and supporting the truckers and the atmosphere seems festive and celebratory more than anything else.
I've said this before. There's a strong libertarian bent to HN and I'm not surprised if there's a large contingent of this site that actively supports the convoy. There's people here that are strong supports of Peter Thiel, if that's any indication of where their sympathies lie.
But, most of them are not residents of Ottawa, and the lived experiences of people in that city, particurlarly those who have had run ins with the protesters, or struggled through the 16-18 hours / day of honking, had to walk around or be harrassed by them, see the awful imagery of Trump, Confederate etc. flags being waved around, the yellow star morons etc. cannot simply be dismissed as bad or inaccurate media.
A city is being held hostage by an extreme minority and, even in OPs post they mention that the Toronto police handled it properly, but question the admonition levied against the Ottawa police.
The Ottawa police are complicit in this now as well as city council. They sat on their hands while allowing this to spiral out of control, and now want to play the victim or blame others (e.g. blaming counter protesters today).
It doesn't matter if you side with the protest or not. The sheer fact that they've been allowed to have large impact on the city and it's residents, for this long, is proof that the so-called lack of freedom that they're fighting for is simply not the bogeyman they've made it out to be. Especially if you're white.
> While there is no outright violence, there is torture to local residents
Why did you use the word torture here? Torture is a well-defined word with an accepted meaning. Do you feel that it is appropriate? Or are you looking for an emotionally-loaded reaction?
Can I also claim that my loud college neighbors are torturing me when they stay up too late on the weekend? Of course I can, but it sure is disingenuous to anyone who has actually been tortured.
> It appears this was the result of terrible security at GiveSendGo.
Don't victim blame, and call a spade a spade. It was the result of targeted black hat hacking and identity theft, probably made easier by poor security at GiveSendGo.
Mounties said in a release Monday that they became aware of a small organized group within the larger protest at Coutts.
They say they had information that the group had access to a cache of firearms and ammunition. Officers seized long guns, handguns, multiple sets of body armour, a machete, a large quantity of ammunition and high-capacity firearm magazines.
There will always be some opportunistic groups looking to cause more mayhem in chaotic situations like this. These protests have been literally “mostly peaceful” no?
Trudeau's father had the Mounties plant bombs at civilians (Canadian citizens on Canadian soil) back in the 70's and tried to blame it on some political group to justify armed intervention [0].
I went through the leaks last night and they're wrong about the IP addresses. All of the IP addresses listed are internal to the service itself- they recorded the IP addresses of their own nodes (or possibly cloudflare edge nodes), and they're all from one of a few ranges or localhost.
The email addresses, names, country and zip codes all seem legit though.
I'd like to know as well. The Distributed Denial of Secrets [1] page states that "Due to PII in the dataset, the dataset is only being offered to journalists and researchers."
Well I'm sure these truckers think and say it's a human rights issue not political, if you ban that you would ban the mechanism liberal democracy values get spread around the world financially speaking, usually under the name of human rights.
As has been pointed out, you can visit relatives in Canada. What you can't do is zip back and forth across the border willy nilly during this pandemic, while refusing to take the preventative measures 4/5ths of your (eligible) countrymen have taken, namely vaccination.
I'm an American living in Canada. Like you I chose to live across an international border from my family. Guess what? Living abroad inconvenient from time to time! During a pandemic when one country (USA) chooses to behave idiotically, the result being a 3x per capita death rate compared to Canada, it's even more inconvenient. Ironically, people like you (who can't be bothered to do anything to prevent virus spread) are the reason we have to have all these damned restrictions.
Despite the inconvenience to me (didn't see family for over a year) I support the border closures and restrictions fully. I am very proud of Canada's success in keeping death and hospitalization rates down compared to USA, and proud of Canadians' civic spirit and collective solidarity. That civic spirit is a big part of why I prefer living here.
If you never want to be inconvenienced in your travels to and within Canada: move back home. You are opting into a certain amount of inconvenience by living abroad, that is your choice.
Who is barred? I’ve travelled to Canada to visit family a number of times last year and once so far this year. I have another trip planned for late spring.
I've had relatives come into the country from different countries many times, with no issues. They had to quarantine, one of them with us, but they were never denied entry, and even that is getting dropped progressively.
Jesus Christ, you can't just leave your S3 bucket open, guys. There are lots of warnings from Amazon before you end up doing that, and it's so easy to not do (pre-signed URLs if you really need a URL).
I guess it's rather interesting to see the reactions from the media and HN comments. Sort of reflects the relative politics:
- Patreon leak. Media didn't go download everyone's data and threaten to get info. HN blamed Patreon.
- GiveSendGo (a terrible name imho). Media downloads the data and threatens to get info. HN blames the hacker.
I think I'm going to choose consistency here. I hate these data breach guys, but it's sort of like I hate mosquitos. If I could cleanse the Earth of them I would, but I can't. So I accept they are just a natural constraint. But if your hotel has mosquitos I'm going to blame your hotel.
This 'hack' is dealing with amateurish security. If you're in a controversial place you've got to do better. GiveSendGo has a lot of work to do (unless this was something weird this specific campaign did). And their security position on this was terrible: https://techcrunch.com/2022/02/08/ottawa-trucker-freedom-con...
> TechCrunch contacted GiveSendGo co-founder Jacob Wells with details of the exposed bucket on Tuesday. The bucket was secured a short time later, but Wells did not respond to our questions, including if GiveSendGo planned on informing about the security lapse those whose information was exposed.
Patreon is a bay area startup with loads of VC funding. Their engineering team is well paid and people hold them to a higher standard.
GiveSendGo has amateurish security because it's an amateurish company.
Think of it this way. Patreon's security failure made bay area techies look bad because it turned out that you couldn't just hire a bunch of them and expect things to go well. GiveSendGo's security failure makes bay area techies look bad because it turns out cloud security isn't as easy as they'd like to think.
Also taking down small sites that provide services to the out group of the bay area is unacceptable in a democracy. It invites legislative reprisal.
The lack of effective policing is what's most disappointing to me. The Ottawa police have completely failed to enforce any boundaries. This further erodes public trust in the police and public safety in general. In that sense the protestors are winning.
What is effective policing meant to look like in circumstances like this?
This is an unarguably large amount of people practicing civil disobedience. How many police does Ottawa have on hand to deal with it?
All the tactics I can think of to truly control a crowd this size are rather…harsh (lines of riot police and water cannons etc). So if you don’t take that option you’re left with tactical deployment of officers.
Seems like a hard problem to get right. Just because they’re not perfect doesn’t mean they’re not effective.
The fact that they’re seizing weapons caches before any particularly heinous outbreaks of violence makes me think they’re prioritising their resources somewhat effectively?
There are less people engaging in highly disruptive actions such as in the blockade of the border pass or in honking at night than police officers.
The tactics are pretty simple. You order dispersal for disruptive people. If they refuse, you calmly walk towards and past them as a group in riot gear. If they engage in violence, you act in minimal self defence, and if they refuse to move, you continue, slowly pushing them forwards.
If people stay stuck in their trucks or cars, you give them a warning their car is being impounded. If they don't leave by then, you tow it to the side and give a hefty fine, with or without them inside.
It's not a hard problem at all. I've been on the receiving end multiple times. It's only when you start throwing tear gas for no reason or beating up people for fun - which police often does to other groups - that you have unprovoked issues.
As it stands municipal police has done exactly nothing. They haven't even given fines.
The ones seizing weapon caches are the RCMP, under federal jurisdiction. They've recently been allowed to take over the duties of municipal officers because so many of them refuse to do anything.
The response from Toronto police seemed highly effective. The response from Ottawa police was selfies and gaslighting, which ultimately resulted in the police chief resigning.
Police will not attack their own citizens. Sometimes it happens...shocker. Usually when the government is out of line with the sentiment of the people.
So now they will try to send in the RCMP to the dirty work.
This is a tactic often used by dictators.
Send in out of town people to suppress the locals.
I'm confused, is only the truckers convoy data available or was all of GiveSendGo's database compromised? GiveSendGo hosts fundraising campaigns for the full constellation of alt-right, Proud Boy, J6, etc groups that don't get hosted by GoFundMe.
Readit News
That said, I am thoroughly disappointed the Federal gov't and much of the media coverage. They have done nothing but make the situation worse. I think it is intentional (I assume some political end game), but their actions are fueling even more outlandish conspiracy theories.
The most insane was that all layers of government did nothing to stop the noise (truck horns), but it ended when a 21 year old who simply filed a court injunction and the protesters complied.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/injunction-ottawa-granted-1...
I've watched the Toronto Police Service play their A game through this entire debacle. They shut down the protests hard and were clearly visible throughout the city with heavy trucks and busses to block roads and maintain control of the situation.
https://www.cp24.com/video?clipId=2376560
The idea that Justin Trudeau needs martial law to deal with parked trucks is outrageous. This isn't an insurrection (reference to an MOU was removed from their website and I agree with the assertion that it was a poorly thought out idea, not a threat), there is no violence, and no obvious danger. The last person to use martial law was Trudeau's father (Pierre) for an actual terrorist attack and kidnapping (the diplomat was later murdered). Get some proper police on the job and drop mandates for ineffective measures and let's move on with our lives.
This doesn't even resemble a spontaneous protest, it's organized and funded as part of the global push to fascism. The anti-vax component is a thin pretext.
[0] https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/coutts-protest-blocka...
From my understanding, this is only the case for truckers crossing the border. Most of the vaccination mandates I have heard of have been at the provincial or municipal levels and only affect employees of the government or publicly controlled institutions (health, education, police). Even then, it is typically on unpaid leave. Relatively few mandates have come from Ottawa, simply because it isn't their jurisdiction. They aren't leaving much room for human rights complaints, particularly since I believe employers were already within their rights to demand certain vaccinations. I very much doubt that it would even qualify as discriminatory, since it does not affect protected classes.
Haven’t seen anything like that in this protest, but honestly I haven’t been looking too close.
This is not true in any of the relevant cities; it is an extremely vocal, and very small, minority of people who are in support, and I can guarantee you that most of the few people who do support it would change their minds if it was their neighbourhood people were honking in all night.
Note that over 90% of Canadian truckers are already vaccinated, and similar percentages of the large urban centres being harassed are vaccinated as well. Most people are entirely against these "protests", and will be happier when they're over.
> Furthermore, it can be effectively argued that forcing workers to get vaccinated or lose their jobs is inherently discriminatory
It cannot be effectively argued, because it is not discriminatory; "people who refuse to believe in medical science" is not a protected class. If you need to get a background check to get a job, that is not discriminatory. If you need to have a license to do a job, that is not discriminatory. If you need to be vaccinated to do your job (not just COVID, but otherwise), that is not discriminatory.
> and perhaps even anti-freedom.
Freedom has limits. You don't have the freedom to endanger others.
Freedom does not mean "I get to eat my cake and have it too"; it means you're able to make a choice. Do you want to get vaccinated and do your job, or do you want to refuse to get vaccinated and leave that job so that you aren't endangering others?
What these people are protesting is that they made their choice and have to deal with the consequences of that choice. If you don't want to get a driver's license, you can't protest that you should still be allowed to drive a car; if you don't want to get a passport, you can't protest that you should still be allowed to travel internationally. The rules and restrictions are clear and up-front.
Also: I have friends in Ottawa, and am hearing multiple reports of people being harassed or threatened by these "protesters" (many of whom are acting more like terrorists, trying to intimidate everyone around them) for something as simple as wearing a mask.
Keep in mind that in Canada a lot of the media is state owned and operated. So the media coverage might reflect more on what the ruling party wants the people to think of the protests.
On the livestreams they had music blasting and children playing in the snow near the trucks. Doesn’t look like an “insurrection”, as the state media described it, by any stretch (unless they fear snowballs!).
Source? The US polls I've seen show 60% support for vaccine mandates, which is probably why the government feels so confident in shutting down the protests. The media I've seen isn't portraying the protestors as violent but as a nuisance.
what are you possibly basing this on?
>> But these are only my personal observations and conclusions
Oh, opinion. So you complain that the media coverage is "vastly negative" because... you feel it is.
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/injunction-ottawa-granted-1...
This did not work though:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/protesters-violate-cou...
The court order is just a threat and the Ottawa Police Service appear to not care to enforce the order.
If the police agree with some group of protestors, then they're treated with kid gloves, and can get away with anything. The police will throw their hands up and say "nope, can't possibly enforce the law anymore, so sorry!" and stand back. If the police do not agree with some other group of protestors, they're going to get beaten, pepper sprayed, and shot with rubber bullets, no matter how they behave. All of a sudden, enforcement is no problem.
This is false and I would expect better of HN posters.
A group of the protestors locked the doors to a downtown apartment building with handcuffs and then attempted to set that building on fire.
Although nobody has been injured yet, there have been plenty of weapons seizures as well as incidents of protestors ramming police vehicles and/or attempting to arrest police officers.
Residents of Ottawa are scared to leave their homes for simple tasks like buying groceries because the protestors have assaulted vulnerable individuals for wearing masks.
The entire thing is a tinderbox just waiting for one unhinged protestor to make a wrong move. And even if we escape this incident peacefully, there are the toxic diesel fumes from idling trucks which have been polluting downtown Ottawa's air for the last two weeks and are likely to become trapped in the urban environment.
What evidence is there that that was real? An allegation was made on Twitter, but only thing I've found that digs into the details looks like a complete debunking (see links at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30336974). It's from a biased source and I'm open to any factual refutation, but I've looked for contrary reporting that digs into the details, and haven't found any. Only a lot of repetition of the original allegation.
Those demonstrations were mostly peaceful according to those we are supposed to listen to, so obviously the current demonstrations are even more peaceful.
Edit: I'm triple vaccinated myself and recommend it for everyone else, but if we have freedom to choose that also must include freedom to do what I think is less smart.
In fact I think at this point the attempt to force people to vaccinate is scaring people away from it.
In any case afaik no actual tie to the protests has been reported.
Kind of like almost everyone in the US and Canada for a period of almost a year thanks to governmental policies?
Another way to look at things is these protests will indirectly help flatten the curve, especially if they go on for two more weeks.
A number of illegal weapons, high capacity magazines, and a large quantity of ammunition were seized in a blockade in Alberta. I would not be surprised if there are people with weapons in Ottawa as well, waiting for an opportunity to strike.
https://globalnews.ca/news/8618494/alberta-coutts-border-pro...
> https://globalnews.ca/news/8618494/alberta-coutts-border-pro...
Your link doesn't describe anything as "illegal weapons." It just says "long guns" and "handguns" which are both pretty broad terms that undoubtedly encompass guns that are legal in Canada.
Does it look like they are all packing and waiting to strike?
Dead Comment
> I think it is intentional (I assume some political end game)
Most media doesn't have a political endgame. They have a bias for sensationalism and clickbait.
I am 100% certain there are people who can easily pick whatever kind of ignition lock cylinders are used in these trucks. It would be far more efficient to "car jack" these trucks, drive them to an impound lot, and auction them off the next day, than trying to tow them with "military tow trucks" (whatever those are).
The key phrases are "imposition of direct military control of normal civil functions" and "suspension of civil law by a government".
The Canadian Emergencies Act, which was invoked by the Liberal government today, specifically states the following: "For greater certainty, nothing in this Act derogates from the authority of the Government of Canada to deal with emergencies on any property, territory or area in respect of which the Parliament of Canada has jurisdiction" [2].
I'd do a deeper reading but I'm a bit lazy, but my understanding is that the EA does not allow, in any way, a shift in governance that could be described as "martial law" - where the military is in control of civil functions and can create or remove laws as military leadership desires. Even with the EA invoked, the federal government still controls the Canadian military (but can be assisted in enforcing civil law _by_ the military).
I'm no fan of Trudeau either, but we should seek to be precise when discussing hot situations like this. People can get very inflamed off of internet posts and the idea that we're under "martial law" is riling people up.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law
[2] https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/e-4.5/page-1.html
Is that martial law is? What you're describing sounds more like a coup to me ("where the military is in control of civil functions and can create or remove laws as military leadership desires").
My understanding of martial law (very colored by being an American) is basically direct enforcement of domestic government authority by the military with little or no recourse to normal civilian oversight (e.g. courts). However, the military isn't acting independently, but is still taking orders from some civilian leader in some part of the government.
The idea is that if your nation is “hosting” a battle field, and the police start arresting belligerents and charging them with civilian crimes, the military can override them and say “you can’t charge invading soldiers with a crime for honorably doing their duty” - they must be treated as POWs, not criminals.
For example, if Russia is attacking Toronto, and a Toronto Police Officer comes across a wounded Russian soldier with an AK-47, she can’t charge the soldier for possessing an illegal weapon. The soldier would have to be treated as a POW.
This means the military must - must! - be able to say “this area is under martial law”.
I doubt this applies to the current situation.
But if Canada is as diligent as they claim to be about International law, they need to have the ability to declare martial law.
Didn't the father do the exact same thing back in the 70's?
Of course there's political gains, as they say, never get a crisis go to waste.
Pretty standard when it comes to Canadian protests.
That little throw away at the end, where we just give in to people making demands outside of democratic methods says it all, I think.
While there is no outright violence, there is torture to local residents, there was attempted arson, there is continued intimidation and harassment of those wearing masks, there is intimidation of visible minorities, there are attacks on businesses....
Is that enough to convince you that the situation is out of hand and than stricter action is needed?
The protestors haven't complied with not honking.
Please, please be careful with how you frame this. There was severe inaction and dangerous incompetence displayed by Ottawa police but please don't spin this as the federal government overstepping.
Edit - within seconds of posting, this is downvoted. Truly a shameful display by the folks here.
But, most of them are not residents of Ottawa, and the lived experiences of people in that city, particurlarly those who have had run ins with the protesters, or struggled through the 16-18 hours / day of honking, had to walk around or be harrassed by them, see the awful imagery of Trump, Confederate etc. flags being waved around, the yellow star morons etc. cannot simply be dismissed as bad or inaccurate media.
A city is being held hostage by an extreme minority and, even in OPs post they mention that the Toronto police handled it properly, but question the admonition levied against the Ottawa police.
The Ottawa police are complicit in this now as well as city council. They sat on their hands while allowing this to spiral out of control, and now want to play the victim or blame others (e.g. blaming counter protesters today).
It doesn't matter if you side with the protest or not. The sheer fact that they've been allowed to have large impact on the city and it's residents, for this long, is proof that the so-called lack of freedom that they're fighting for is simply not the bogeyman they've made it out to be. Especially if you're white.
Please don't comment on downvotes like this; it's not useful.
Why did you use the word torture here? Torture is a well-defined word with an accepted meaning. Do you feel that it is appropriate? Or are you looking for an emotionally-loaded reaction? Can I also claim that my loud college neighbors are torturing me when they stay up too late on the weekend? Of course I can, but it sure is disingenuous to anyone who has actually been tortured.
Dead Comment
Dead Comment
Dead Comment
Don't victim blame, and call a spade a spade. It was the result of targeted black hat hacking and identity theft, probably made easier by poor security at GiveSendGo.
People standing up for their rights!
Cue the media attack dog and smear campaign. We need some corporate approved misinformation to get ahead of this.
It's such an obvious formula at this point. Does anyone still not see through it?
Mounties said in a release Monday that they became aware of a small organized group within the larger protest at Coutts.
They say they had information that the group had access to a cache of firearms and ammunition. Officers seized long guns, handguns, multiple sets of body armour, a machete, a large quantity of ammunition and high-capacity firearm magazines.
These are regular folks.
Trudeau's father had the Mounties plant bombs at civilians (Canadian citizens on Canadian soil) back in the 70's and tried to blame it on some political group to justify armed intervention [0].
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_controversies_involvin...
Deleted Comment
Dead Comment
The email addresses, names, country and zip codes all seem legit though.
And somewhat sad…true tech literacy will never be reached I guess.
Edit: Here [2], captured by the Internet Archive
[1] - https://ddosecrets.com/wiki/GiveSendGo_Freedom_Convoy_donor_...
[2] - https://web.archive.org/web/20220214031301/https://givesendg...
Dead Comment
Ban foreign money entering your political system. Nothing good will ever come from it.
Deleted Comment
Dead Comment
I'm an American living in Canada. Like you I chose to live across an international border from my family. Guess what? Living abroad inconvenient from time to time! During a pandemic when one country (USA) chooses to behave idiotically, the result being a 3x per capita death rate compared to Canada, it's even more inconvenient. Ironically, people like you (who can't be bothered to do anything to prevent virus spread) are the reason we have to have all these damned restrictions.
Despite the inconvenience to me (didn't see family for over a year) I support the border closures and restrictions fully. I am very proud of Canada's success in keeping death and hospitalization rates down compared to USA, and proud of Canadians' civic spirit and collective solidarity. That civic spirit is a big part of why I prefer living here.
If you never want to be inconvenienced in your travels to and within Canada: move back home. You are opting into a certain amount of inconvenience by living abroad, that is your choice.
Canadian citizens enter by right.
Nobody's barred from going anywhere. Go get your shots.
I guess it's rather interesting to see the reactions from the media and HN comments. Sort of reflects the relative politics:
- Patreon leak. Media didn't go download everyone's data and threaten to get info. HN blamed Patreon.
- GiveSendGo (a terrible name imho). Media downloads the data and threatens to get info. HN blames the hacker.
I think I'm going to choose consistency here. I hate these data breach guys, but it's sort of like I hate mosquitos. If I could cleanse the Earth of them I would, but I can't. So I accept they are just a natural constraint. But if your hotel has mosquitos I'm going to blame your hotel.
This 'hack' is dealing with amateurish security. If you're in a controversial place you've got to do better. GiveSendGo has a lot of work to do (unless this was something weird this specific campaign did). And their security position on this was terrible: https://techcrunch.com/2022/02/08/ottawa-trucker-freedom-con...
> TechCrunch contacted GiveSendGo co-founder Jacob Wells with details of the exposed bucket on Tuesday. The bucket was secured a short time later, but Wells did not respond to our questions, including if GiveSendGo planned on informing about the security lapse those whose information was exposed.
GiveSendGo has amateurish security because it's an amateurish company.
Think of it this way. Patreon's security failure made bay area techies look bad because it turned out that you couldn't just hire a bunch of them and expect things to go well. GiveSendGo's security failure makes bay area techies look bad because it turns out cloud security isn't as easy as they'd like to think.
Also taking down small sites that provide services to the out group of the bay area is unacceptable in a democracy. It invites legislative reprisal.
Deleted Comment
Deleted Comment
This is an unarguably large amount of people practicing civil disobedience. How many police does Ottawa have on hand to deal with it?
All the tactics I can think of to truly control a crowd this size are rather…harsh (lines of riot police and water cannons etc). So if you don’t take that option you’re left with tactical deployment of officers.
Seems like a hard problem to get right. Just because they’re not perfect doesn’t mean they’re not effective.
The fact that they’re seizing weapons caches before any particularly heinous outbreaks of violence makes me think they’re prioritising their resources somewhat effectively?
The tactics are pretty simple. You order dispersal for disruptive people. If they refuse, you calmly walk towards and past them as a group in riot gear. If they engage in violence, you act in minimal self defence, and if they refuse to move, you continue, slowly pushing them forwards.
If people stay stuck in their trucks or cars, you give them a warning their car is being impounded. If they don't leave by then, you tow it to the side and give a hefty fine, with or without them inside.
It's not a hard problem at all. I've been on the receiving end multiple times. It's only when you start throwing tear gas for no reason or beating up people for fun - which police often does to other groups - that you have unprovoked issues.
As it stands municipal police has done exactly nothing. They haven't even given fines.
The ones seizing weapon caches are the RCMP, under federal jurisdiction. They've recently been allowed to take over the duties of municipal officers because so many of them refuse to do anything.