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Posted by u/hnthrowaway0315 4 years ago
Ask HN: Please recommend a router without need for a cloud account
Hi friends,

I'm shopping a router and from what I read in the reviews, ALL mid-end family routers (those between $40 and $100) that I see need a cloud account to access the management page. I'm wondering if there is anything that does not need a cloud account? Thanks~~

dredmorbius · 4 years ago
Any system capable of running OpenWRT.

https://openwrt.org/supported_devices

You might find / inquire about specific devices at the OpenWRT subreddit:

https://old.reddit.com/r/openwrt/

The Turris Omnia is priced above your preferred range, but is effectively a small server and has excellent capabilities. It runs a specifically-tuned and live-upgradable version of OpenWRT:

https://www.turris.com/en/omnia/overview/

ramphastidae · 4 years ago
IMHO, skip OpenWRT. It is much more difficult to get working correctly than HN likes to admit. There’s a non-trivial chance you will spend hours and hours reflashing your router and reading forum posts until you eventually brick it. It’s just like Raspberry Pis. Theoretically the right choice but practically speaking a huge time sink and poor, unstable experience that is best left to hobbiest tinkering or networking professionals with a lot of spare time.
fartcannon · 4 years ago
Forgive me if this sounds arrogant, but I think the general HN user is capable of handling the relatively simple UI based download and flash required to use OpenWRT. Likewise, using a raspberry pi is probably trivial for most developers. If not, I'm being under paid.
Faaak · 4 years ago
I don't really see what you're talking about. I've flashed all of my routers and _never_ had a problem.

Maybe the thing that took me the most time was to decide which version to use or whether I should use openwrt vs tomato vs other competitors

Rebelgecko · 4 years ago
FWIW I've had the opposite experience. The stock firmware on my TP-Link router was awful. It was a pain to update and I frequently had to reboot the thing because it decided to stop working. Installing OpenWRT took maybe 15 minutes and an hour or so of fiddling and setting up my port forwarding and static IPs. Now my router's uptime is measured in months (and that's only because of power outages)
howdydoo · 4 years ago
Nothing in life has a 100% success rate. But I think the fact that most people recommend OpenWrt, shows that most people don't have these crazy problems. Buy well-supported hardware, follow the directions carefully, and you'll be just fine.
LargoLasskhyfv · 4 years ago
If you manage to brick your router by messing with OpenWRT, you're maybe better of with the factory default 'for dummies' interface. Most cheap plastics have something like 'recovery' built in. It's like rescue 'BIOS' becoming active after a while, or via some reset button push code, where it is accessible on a default IP, and reflashable via browser. This seems to be the case since at about 10 years? What sometimes is lacking, is the documentation about the specifics of factory defaults for different devices and revisions thereof.

I never felt the 'instability', at least not when I limited myself to the basics a thing like that should do, and not trying to turn it into a server for all sorts of things.

(Edit: Though you can also do that, if you know what you are doing. That's the advantage of things like these!)

Depending on which hardware/SOC you have, DD-Wrt may be a better option.

globular-toast · 4 years ago
I think you just need to go in with an understanding of what a router and related things (access point, switch, modem etc.) actually are. Too many people think router is just "that thing that gives me internet via wifi". If you are one of those, you might not have a good time with OpenWRT or Pfsense etc.
dredmorbius · 4 years ago
The Turris Omnia is preconfigured with OpenWRT, specifically tuned to the hardware, and auto-updates.

It's cloud-free, spyware-free, adware-free.

The default configuration works with the same basic configuration any consumer-grade system would require.

Extensive configuration capability is offered through either of two graphical front-ends, the basic Turris, the advanced Luci, or for those who prefer talking in words rather than gestures, a highly capable Linux system residing underneath.

jcpham2 · 4 years ago
OpenWRT is the only thing I would recommend - all the consumer routers have turned to trash.
unmole · 4 years ago
> IMHO, skip OpenWRT. It is much more difficult to get working correctly than HN likes to admit.

Does not match my experience at all. My router would regularly go offline with the stock firmware which never happened after I flashed OpenWRT.

cyanydeez · 4 years ago
took about q5 minutes to setup. perhaps you chose the wrong router.
sircastor · 4 years ago
I like the idea of running OpenWRT. I did it for years. I eventually grew tired of being my own Network admin. The risk of bricking my router, and having to review what felt like arcane update rules before every upgrade process made me finally cave and just get an Eero. I don't love the lack of features, and I really don't like Amazon owning the company, but it works for me.
webstrand · 4 years ago
The Omnia looks really nice. But in their advertising script they claim they have "LTE antennas", does anyone know what they mean by that claim? I had thought LTE was only a term used by the cellular telecommunications industry.
cassianoleal · 4 years ago
The way they phrased it could be clearer, but what they mean is that you can add an LTE modem and add 2 antennas on top of the regular 3 WiFi ones.
FractalParadigm · 4 years ago
It's possible they mean exactly what they're writing - my ISP has an option (usually part of their business package but can be had for home users by talking to the right person) where you can rent their WiFi modem that includes LTE/5G hardware and service as a backup connection in the event the main coax line goes down.
mdavis6890 · 4 years ago
Likely for a backup cell/LTE WAN connection. Sounds like a nice feature, if it's actually what I think.
SR2Z · 4 years ago
There is a cellular LTE modem that can be used as a backup internet connection if the primary one goes down.
dredmorbius · 4 years ago
The device is hardware-hackable.

You can add additional rewritable onboard storage. And an LTE modem for mobile data.

droningparrot · 4 years ago
I've had good experiences running OpenWRT on the TP-Link Archer C7. It's a popular router and I've been able to find plenty of them used for around $40
clircle · 4 years ago
I've got a C7 and it doesn't even need a cloud account to set up
dehrmann · 4 years ago
I usually get a Mikrotik device when I'm going to use OpenWRT. Hardware support tends to be pretty good.
shadowoflight · 4 years ago
I'd personally recommend FreshTomato[0] over OpenWRT, as it has a more approachable UI, is still open-source, and (in my experience) tends to run a bit smoother while needing less babysitting.

[0]: https://freshtomato.org/

PaulKeeble · 4 years ago
It has serious updating issues however requiring you to completely setup the router every time you update and the update process is entirely manual. I like FreshTomato I have used it for some years but the wifi performance sucks and the constant clearing of settings just grates over time.

This is something commercial routers get right, updates keep your settings. This requirement will cause you to delay if you use any of the complexity of the router and that leaves you open to attacks. IMO its not a great choice today due to this one fatal flaw.

pc86 · 4 years ago
I'd never heard of the Omnia before, I'll have to check this out it looks pretty neat!
cassianoleal · 4 years ago
I was also recommending it here (posted before seeing the parent): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29703321

I own one and it has not always been great. At one point their fork of OpenWRT was so different from upstream that upgrades were taking a long time and introduced lots of bugs.

Since the last major version or 2 though, they've upstreamed most of the drivers and custom code, so TurrisOS is just a few patches and packages on top of OpenWRT to better support the specific hardware and services, and it's been very stable.

One incredibly useful feature is BTRFS snapshots and the `schnapps` CLI to manage them. The hardware reset button can even be used to roll back to factory defaults, from where you can still access and restore any snapshot so it's very easy to unbrick the router if you make a mistake.

Add an M.2 NVMe card and you can run LXC containers (and in the next major release, even Docker).

SweetLullaby · 4 years ago
the same, never heard about it
antihero · 4 years ago
Does OpenWRT still mean that speeds are slower due to not having proprietary drivers?
LargoLasskhyfv · 4 years ago
Doesn't matter, because you cän OVERCLOQQ!1!!

https://openwrt.org/docs/techref/bootloader/pepe2k

https://github.com/pepe2k/u-boot_mod

No, seriously ;-) What you are thinking of is probably described here https://openwrt.org/docs/techref/hardware/switch and has a long history.

Basically it depends on having opensourced drivers, or at least specifications for the internals of the affected switcheroos, which wasn't the case for many chips for a long time, and still isn't for all of them.

Then there is the part of writing a unifying and usable abstraction for all of that, which also isn't fully there yet, at least not for every device under the sun.

Read up here: https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/networking/switchdev....

dredmorbius · 4 years ago
Not to any significant extent AFAIA, though specifics will depend on the device, components, and drivers in question.

In almost all cases, OpenWRT extends rather than restricts device capabilities.

That said: choose your hardware based on OpenWRT support if at all possible.

NortySpock · 4 years ago
I would also suggest dd-wrt as an alternative; it seemed a little easier to find a working build and I've eventually gotten used to the UI organization.
dredmorbius · 4 years ago
I've used dd-wrt for over a decade. Issues:

- Seems very badly out of date.

- Far more limited capabilities

- Much less clear upgrade capabilities / path.

If it works for you, then sure. I'd lean strongly to OpenWRT.

Much of my dd-wrt comments also applies to Tomato from what I've been able to sort.

dd-wrt and Tomato were built for systems as they existed a decade or two ago, notably the venerable Linksys WRT54G router. These work, but have highly constrained hardware.

bennyp101 · 4 years ago
None of my TPLink, Netgear, or ASUS routers have ever needed a cloud account - I guess this is a new/regional thing?

I use Mikrotik hAP2 (~£60/$80) - if you are comfortable with that sort of thing, otherwise I guess anything that supports OpenWRT as others have said.

Have you got examples of ones that need a cloud account? I'm intrigued now

ABeeSea · 4 years ago
Yea I just bought a netgear router and it didn’t require a cloud account. It did push creating one very heavily during setup.
hnthrowaway0315 · 4 years ago
Just to confirm, you don't need the cloud account for entering management page right? The reviews I read on Amazon could be from people who are not technical enough so they fell for the cloud acc trap.
sib301 · 4 years ago
Also using net gear. I suspect the vast majority of users here are savvy enough to get around the cloud requirement but non-technical users likely would not have figured it out.
mistrial9 · 4 years ago
in California I see that the AT&T supplied DSL-modem/router requires sign in (stored in firmware configs), and takes over the DNS functions (details forthcoming). I am very concerned about future "required" hardware like this.. the excuses will be around security, but look at the history of economic incentives.
reaperducer · 4 years ago
I guess this is a new/regional thing?

Only if there's no Amazon in your region.

Amazon eeros require an account.

Apple's Airports did, too, when those were still being made. Not directly, but you needed an App Store account to download the setup utility.

nsm · 4 years ago
Bought a netgear router and a tplink repeater within the last year. All the cloud account crap is only required to use the mobile apps. However they all offer web interfaces directly at their ip addresses. Just use that and bypass all the dark patterns.

It sucks that companies feel the need to cloudify everything.

david422 · 4 years ago
All netgear routers can use routerlogin.net

Also have netgear with no cloud account required. Also don't use mobile apps.

cma · 4 years ago
New netgear stuff only works without a cloud account when you unplug it from the net. That means no remote admin through a local machine (have to be there to pull the plug), and no settings changes without disrupting internet.
b112 · 4 years ago
I don't even want a device, at all, if it has the capability for cloud management.

It obviously phones home, and has all sorts of additional exploit angles.

I bet there's a daemon listening 24x7 for incoming connects, too.

Ubiquity ERL already had a security issue with theirs.

dnautics · 4 years ago
Maybe I'm dense, but I could not figure out how to use my netgear wi-fi AP without registering your account. Same with TP-link. What's worse, is the TP-link didn't say "requires registration" on the box.
csdreamer7 · 4 years ago
I bought a tplink wifi repeater years ago and it definitely required a cloud account to use. There may be a way to set it manually, but it was not obvious to me.
tonymet · 4 years ago
Get a separate router and AP. Router hardware is stable , but wifi tech improves every 5 years . Router/firewall config is also more complicated so you want more control and stability.

For The router get a mikrotik or ubiquiti. Then you can run small- business APs from Ubiquiti and TP link for example. Or convert an older router into AP with open source firmware .

3guk · 4 years ago
For small family home deployments I've always used ASUS stuff flashed with AsusWRT-Merlin - https://www.asuswrt-merlin.net/ - has been super stable and I've never required anything other than a local account to set them up.
tonymet · 4 years ago
I agree this is the best ‘technical family’ solution. Good balance of easy-to-use, stable as well as some advanced features if needed.

OP : If you are technical you can buy a TM-AC1900 on ebay for $40 and flash it with the AC-68U

https://www.bayareatechpros.com/ac1900-to-ac68u/

mikecoles · 4 years ago
Merlin supports ai.mesh. Very nice. The roaming support from the stock firmware works well from the small installations I've done. Have you made use of the feature in the Merlin variant?
otterley · 4 years ago
Ubiquiti's EdgeRouter X is relatively inexpensive, has plenty of features, and does not require a cloud account of any sort.
redman25 · 4 years ago
Yes, this is a solid router. Just be aware it’s not the most user friendly to configure. I’ve had one for personal use for about 5 years or so. After set up, it’s trucked along without issue though.
mehdix · 4 years ago
I'm using it as my router and it is working with absolutely no problem for the last two years. The management page is accessible over ssh and https.
bell-cot · 4 years ago
That's what I would buy...but they do NOT include Wi-Fi. And I'd say they're more "Prosumer" market than "Family".
md_ · 4 years ago
Apparently can also run OpenWRT, though I haven't tried and it's not clear to me if everything is well-supported.
mikecoles · 4 years ago
I put OpenWRT on an ERPro-8. It worked very well and had more features than the stock firmware. USB modem support was what pushed me to OpenWRT. The storage took a dump in the router (soldered on) so it was fun while it lasted. The MikroTik RB5009UG+S+IN is looking pretty sweet.
xnyan · 4 years ago
I'm running openWRT on my edgerouterX, and so far (about 2 months) everything has been really well supported including hardware offloading of various features.

In most cases, I'm getting better than stock performance. UI is much better too. I'm a big fan.

juancn · 4 years ago
Any router (or routerboard) that supports Mikrotik: https://mikrotik.com/

You don't have to buy from them the hardware.

I used to use OpenWRT (which is also a nice second option), but the robustness and flexibility of mikrotik is fantastic.

stevenjgarner · 4 years ago
I strongly upvote Mikrotik with its open-source RouterOS software (which you can run on nearly any computer). I have used Mikrotik for years, from their low-end (but powerful) routerBOARD offerings through to their CCR1036-12G-4S optical router and their nRAY 60 GHz point-to-point wireless Internet.

I have supported dozens of router brands for clients since 1996, and I cannot say enough good things about Mikrotik. It allows you to work productively on Terminal CLI (but that is not necessary).

redprince · 4 years ago
> I strongly upvote Mikrotik with its open-source RouterOS software (which you can run on nearly any computer).

Unless I have missed a few recent development, the RouterOS is open source only in the sense that it is build on a foundation of open source software. The source of the GPL parts is available upon request.

Running RouterOS on non-Mikrotik hardware requires the purchase of a separate license. Mikrotik hardware usually comes with a license already on the device.

mmastrac · 4 years ago
I have had a Mikrotik device for about 5 years now and it doesn't require a cloud login but you better be ready to learn the nuances of the Mikrotik system. It is far too easy to accidentally open up your internal network through misconfiguration.

The wizards for network setup make this much easier but be ready for a steep learning curve.

enneff · 4 years ago
Seconding this. Great firmware and I own some of their hardware and it works well.
prirun · 4 years ago
I have been using Netgear WNDR3700 and similar routers for years with no problems and no cloud account. I keep one as a spare for family in case someone's gets knocked out by a power surge, or the power supply dies, or whatever. Had that happen several times. I've never had one be "flaky": they either work or don't.

I buy them at Goodwill for $5-10 whenever I see them there, which is fairly often.

They have two main features I like:

- separate main and guest networks. I put all my non-computer stuff like phone, TV, Roku, Tivo, etc on the guest network. There is a setting to isloate the guest network from the main network on separate vlans.

- they have a QOS setting for uploads (I only have 1Mbit up), so when I do online backups with HashBackup (I'm the author), the router will use the full upload bandwidth if there are no other connections uploading, but if there are other connections needing to upload, the router splits the capacity between the active connections. Without QOS, it was impossible to have an interactive ssh session during a bulk upload. With QOS it works fine.

You can buy these on eBay for $15-25. Get one with free shipping so that if you have trouble and have to return it (unlikely with a high feedback seller), you don't have to pay for shipping.